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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Some feel stuck, some feel free, some feel nothing, and some feel whatever on suboxone... thats why we're all individuals.

Most everything DrJ says [other than the pharm tech stuff??] sounds reasonable... including the part about [wd] symptom reduction and shortening the length of wd's. These are the motivations behind this procedure. So if there is no decrease in the length of wd's or reduction in the severity of symptoms... then why would anyone go this route?? Obviously Waisman et all... are good salesmen and have a nice marketing campaign in place. However, I don't think any informed addict would believe this is a cure or even provides long-term help with recovery from the disease.... if they do, then they have been thoroughly misled and are setting themselves up for failure.

I believe it's true that no one is worse off on subs than the were on their drug of choice. I think what we overlook when addicts want off subs is the "hope" issue. We are optimistic about our future... especially after getting off our DOC. It's human nature to want something better than what we have... and that is why many addicts want off subs because they HOPE it will lead to [more] happiness and a fullfilling normal life. The problem is that if you are unhappy ON subs... then you will probably be unhappy OFF subs too. At least that is the way I see it. Why would we expect that simply coming clean from subs will somehow magically bring happiness. I say find what makes you happy first then think about whether or not you want to come off the drug.

I'd like to see the info [from the dr's post] on his blog and give an avocate of of Rapid Detox an opportunity to respond and address his points. Assuming what he says is clearly true then why hasn't the AMA and/or Govt regulators done something about this... especially, if in fact, it is a scam and has no value. That would seem to indicate that addiction recovery and helping with WD's are low on their priority lists.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Ok. This is it. This is why I feel it necessary. I did not want to be a lifer. I just was deadly afraid of withdrawal. ALL OF US ARE OR WE WOULDN'T TAKE SUBOXONE. That is why I reached out to a Psychiatrist for help. The Dr. on this forum may have given sound advise. Most of which I did not even understand. But he is pro-sub. Of course he has nothing but good things to say about it. So obviously the people at Rapid Detox will feel that their method works as well.
Everyone is biased.
Suboxone did help me feel normal. I was once like you. I felt great. And why wouldn't I? It is 30 times stronger than Morphine Sulfate in the human body. That is from a medical journal! With a life span of 48-72 hours rather than 4-6. It helped me to maintain a healthy lifestyle. (As far as I know. My Doc hasn't tested my blood since month one in his office). But I also am lethargic. Tired all of the time. I feel WORSE than I did on Methadone.
Now I am ready to stop. Is how I stop that big of an issue? Or is it THAT I am stopping the issue here?
If you take the time to call ANY rehab centers around the country, you would find that there are more and more people going into rehab for replacement therapy medication. Does that not bother you at all?
I applaud anyone who was in a rut from street drugs and got their life back. With Suboxone, Methadone, or just cold turkey.
But I was a 10 a day Vicodin user. Not exactly your A-Typical opiate addict. And I ended up on very strong replacement therapies. Why would a Methadone Clinic, or a Psychiatrist, put a vicodin user on such a strong Opiate? Because that is all Suboxone is. Another opiate.
I want to be clean. I want my life that I had 8 years ago back. Opiate free. And yes I am depressed. This is not exactly what I had hoped my life would be like.
I thank everyone who has posted kind words and has wished me luck with Rapid Detox. That is why I joined this forum to begin with.
People recover every day. They get clean and stay opiate free and that is all I wish to achieve.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:47 pm 
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Perhaps I can give it a try. I know what you want Sugarcain. In fact, I think you sum it up pretty well when you say:

"I want to be clean. I want my life that I had 8 years ago back. Opiate free."

Hell, that's what we all want. The only problem is, IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! I really hate to have to say it because if it's not going to happen for you, that means it's not going to happen for me either. But that really is the truth. Neither you or I are going to go back to how we were before we had that switch in our brains turned on.

Now, let me be very clear here. I'm not saying that you and I can't live a great and healthy life. I'm not saying that we can't be clean of opiates - INCLUDING Suboxone. But to get these things will be a long struggle. A struggle that will never end. There are people here that have gotten off of Suboxone and seem to be doing very well. There are others that do well and never took Bup. But none of them here, at least none that I have ever read, got there using rapid detox. I just spent over an hour reading all over the Internet and cannot find one single message board message from someone who did this and suggests others do it as well. Everything I read seems to point to this not being the way to go. In fact, other than the actual places doing it, I can't find much of anything positive about it at all.

Dr. J has no horse in this race. I don't think it matters to him at all if you stop Suboxone or even if you use Rapid Detox to do it. What he is saying is the medical community, himself included, do not support this. And, again, from what I just read, he seems to be accurate in that.

I guess what I really fear with you is you bought into what everyone told you about previous treatments, including Suboxone, and then came to regret it. It really seems like you are about to do the exact same thing again - only this time with a Rapid Detox. Then on top of it, you are going to self-administer Aderall at the end of it all - even though you claim you will do everything that the Rapid Detox center tells you to do. Are they telling you to take the Aderall?

I just see so many red flags going off here that I'm not sure which one to address first. I really, honestly, truly would love nothing more than for you to come back here a month or two from now and tell me how wrong I was. I'd love to hear that despite what everyone has said, that this all worked out for you and you have never felt better. Please. If that should happen, please come back and tell me that. I just have an extremely overwhelming feeling that is not going to happen. And on top of it you will be $10,000 poorer to boot. Actually, it would be great if you can even show me a message board with comments from actual people who have done the Rapid Detox thing who can even make these statements. I'm not talking about those fake posters. I mean, guys like you and me. Have you found those? And if not, what does that tell you?

In the end, I again, whole-heartedly hope this all works out for you and you prove all of us, including Dr. J wrong. That would be so great. I just don't see it happening.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Sorry about the anger yesterday-- instead of repeating my note to the the person who started the thread I'll paste my private message:

Thank you for your message, and I'm sorry for the harshness of my reply. The harshness comes from a long history of battling with the 'subsux' crowd-- either directly on that site, on this forum when they have 'come over' and flamed people, and back when I did the medhelp forum. I really want to avoid the debate over whether suboxone is 'good or bad', as I believe that the debate only pushes people toward stopping a medication that is saving them from disaster and death. Literally.

I shouldn't have been so obnoxious about it. I appreciate your input, and I do wish you well with your sobriety. Like with ALL people on buprenorphine, I encourage you to keep an open mind about seeing addiction as a fatal illness that finally has a soution; I have been an addict for 16 years, and for most of that time there was no help for opiate dependence. That is one reason that I am so bewildered why people complain about something that has done them so much good.

Thanks again for your note


In response to the last message, I am not just 'pro-sub'. My own life was saved by the steps-- twice. I am also the paid medical director of a 50-bed treatment center that NEVER uses Suboxone or other medications. I know that SOME people can live lives of sobriety without medication, but to be frank, they are rare. I know the numbers, and know the people. With alcohol, people can take a number of shots at treatment (and usually do take several shots). But with opiates, the death rate is much higher, and many people overdose before getting to the 'rock bottom' required for recovery. My buprenorphine practice is a smaller and smaller part of my total practice, since I have not taken new patients for a long time, and the people I treat are stable and need less-frequent visits to the office.

MANY people think that they can go through detox-- rapid or otherwise-- and then stay clean. That idea is pure folly, as any addict who has been around for awhile knows. I MUST call the poster out on this fact, as encouraging people otherwise only leads to more denial and more death.

Finally, the comment about feeling good on bupe because 'it is more potent than morphine' (sic)-- the comment is misleading and not a fair assessment of what happens. People on bupe grow tolerant, and their brain's activity becomes, essentially, 'normal'. They are NOT in a state of opiate stimulation once tolerance sets in. The potency of buprenorphine, then, has no relevance-- compared to morphine or to anything else.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:34 pm 
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I appreciate your sincere apology. I can only imagine the chaos that went on with the SubSux group.
With you being an addictionologist, why do you think that Rapid Detox is so bad? In lamens terms please. Your last post was very hard for me to understand. I am an addict. I don't have a PHD :D .


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:58 am 
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Sugarcain,

I am SO GLAD that you have stuck around through this thread and not gotten angry and left. I am sure it is a lot to take in. I hope Dr. J does respond to your last question because I was a bit lost in his explanation as well, but am quite interested. I respect YOU and that this is YOUR decision and I do wish you success and happiness. I fear the reasons behind your decision for many of the reasons already stated such as the adderall, inability to reduce sub despite your unhappiness, etc. The fear is that you will try this, and you won't make it back here to tell us about it or that you won't make it back to recovery if you get lost. What if you are so discouraged afterwards if you have severe PAWS that you just go back to using? What if you die when that relapse occurs? What if you become extremely depressed from PAWS and feel so hopeless you get suicidal?

It is not that I WANT any of these things to happen to you. I WANT the exact opposite. But online, there is this lack of control. I cannot choose to follow up with you after and support you through it. I cannot choose to keep in touch and help encourage you. I cannot do anything. I do not really KNOW you. So how do I find that balance in between where I can respect, support, and encourage you without accidentally giving you false hope for an addiction free life or false hope that you will be back to 'normal' the way it was before your car accident?

A couple years ago, I felt the same way as you and went off suboxone. I was upset with my doctor. I wanted a normal life. I felt confident there was a happier and healthier life without any medications. I am quite stubborn and am very grateful that I tried to make a life without suboxone. I realized for a variety of reasons that I was better off ON the suboxone. It was quitting that cause me to really accept I am an addict, will always be an addict, and had to take my recovery more seriously. I also learned that it is true, the way I felt on suboxone was exactly the same way I felt off suboxone, but magnified. So that I was tired a lot on suboxone became true off suboxone. That I was marginally depressed on suboxone was true off suboxone. That I had cravings and anxiety on suboxone was true off suboxone. I learned I was blaming a lot of my feelings and emotions on the suboxone and I was wrong. So I went back on suboxone at a lower dose to try and help reduce any side effects. I went back to NA and focused on my recovery. I began tackling those feelings I didn't like and stopped blaming them on suboxone. Slowly, many of those 'side-effects' went away as I dealt with them. BUT I am lucky that I made it back into recovery at all.

I respect that this is your decision. I hope you will promise to come back afterwards EVEN if it doesn't work. I hope you will keep an open mind about suboxone and find a GOOD doctor you think you can trust who might agree to take you as a patient if the rapid detox doesn't work. This way you aren't waiting with cravings afterwards and no means to get back on suboxone. I hope you will commit to NA or AA and make sure you have a sponsor who can work with you closely through this. Based on the evidence, I would get a VERY STRONG plan B put together and in place before you go to detox so that you have something to fall back on. It might seem like you would be going into it expecting to fail and that it could sabotage you from the beginning, but it is more like going into it with a realistic perspective, caution, and respect for the powerful nature of this disease and its' ability to kill us at any time.

Meg


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:20 am 
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Of course I have stuck it out. I am not angry with anyone. I am not angry with myself. And I am certainly not depressed.
The low energy IS caused from the Sub.
It is a VERY strong opiate. The blocker only works for IV drug users. Which I have never been.
I am angry at my Dr. though. He screwed up my original recovery on Methadone, and I took 10 steps backwards because of it.
Originally being a Vicodin user, he put me on Oxi for 10 days to put me on Sub. I still do not understand the reasoning behind this. I never will. The only thing I can think of is that he had to get me re-addicted to a true opiate for the Sub to work. But I have also been told that at the low milligram of Methadone I was at, he could have just put me on Sub right away.
There is actually a class-action suit being started with Suboxone. This also worries me.
We are addicts right? So being on Sub is just keeping us addicted. It IS an opiate. That is why everyone feels content in their "so called" recovery.
The reason is that there is not one opiate out there that is strong enough to break through the Suboxone. Especially if you have been on it for more than a couple days.
I do not look down on anyone who uses this medication for their recovery.
It is just not what I had expected for mine.
I will definitely post when I get back and fill people in day to day about how I am doing. If I am not doing well and I have a horrible experience, I will be honest and tell people what I went through.
My choice of recovery is to be opiate free. If there is underlying depression, I will find a different Dr. that actually cares about my recovery. My current Dr. does not believe in recovery at all.
Thank you for your kind words. And your wonderful advise.
I truly appreciate you and the time you have taken to help guide me...........


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:57 am 
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Sugarcain asked about my feelings about rapid detox- to share:

Hi,

First, let me say that there are always exceptions to every rule. My opinions are based on what I see overall, and there will be cases that are different than 'average'.

My story is in the introductions section, if you are interested. I first got addicted to codeine, of all things, back in 1993. I became very desperate, and had a 'spiritual awakening' that led to immersement in AA and NA for about 5 years. At that point I figured I didn't need it anymore, and stopped meetings. A couple years later, in 2000, at a time when I would tell people about the life I 'used to have' when I was addicted to codeine, and thinking I would NEVER go back... I used codeine again. Six months after that I figured I had 'control', and used it again-- and then all hell broke loose, and I eventually was shooting up fentanyl and any other opiate I could find.

I see similar patterns over and over in patients and in other addicted professionals I have met. Opiate dependence tends to come back, over and over, throughout a person's life. Each time it tends to be worse. At the treatment center where I am med director, they have the attitude that people on Suboxone are not really 'clean'. But when we talk honestly, they recognize that the success rate for opiate dependence treatment is very low. In young people, abstinence after treatment is RARE. MOST people eventuallly realize this, but some don't live long enough to realize it, and others lose an awful lot before finding it out.

My main problem with rapid detox is that it plays into a common mistake made by addicts-- thinking that the immediate withdrawal is the 'hard' part of getting clean. In reality, addicts who have been at it for awhile learn that they can get clean-- the problem is STAYING clean. Before my 'awakening' I was one of those people. When I was sick, I could remember how much I hated being addicted, and I could stay away from opiates for a couple weeks. It was after I started feeling good that I would relapse. That was maddening for me and for people who cared about me; they bought into the idea that the withdrawal kept me addicted, but after I was feeling better, why on Earth would I use?!

This situation is another of the frustrations I have with the people who are 'anti-sub' (as I write about anti-sub people I always wonder why they even exist; if they are truly doing better without Suboxone, why aren't they getting on with their lives?!). They miss the boat when they focus on the relatively small challenge of detoxing off Suboxone. Yes, there is some withdrawal, but that is NOT the main problem with staying clean-- the problem is trying to avoid picking up later on. Every opiate addict says 'THAT won't be a problem, doc!' But the vast majority of those people relapse. How many? Almost all of them. I will leave it to people to argue over whether I am exaggerating, but I am being as honest in this description as I can, based on what I see. For example, I have seen many addicts in their early 20's; many times, especially over 3 years ago, they would say that they don't want to take a 'long term medication', and wanted to 'get life back to normal.' I sent some to treatment (the few who would go), and others went off with plans to go to meetings. NONE got 'clean.' Four died; two by overdose, and two by suicide-- the only suicides by people I have treated as a psychiatrist. I was not actively seeing the ones who died; they all had left care at some point, assuring me that they could 'do it on their own.' I followed up after reading their obituaries or being contacted by their family members.

There have been several deaths in the state of WI that were related to buprenorphine; in each case there was a combination of 1. lack of opiate tolerance; and 2. use of other respiratory depressants. In Milwaukee County over the past 6 years there were 1200 overdose deaths, 2 related to buprenorphine.

Other problems with rapid detox: the body can only get back to normal opiate tolerance at a certain speed. Filling receptors with an antagonist STARTS the process quickly, but it takes weeks for the sickness to go away. Naltrexone does not relieve the craving for opiates, which is very intense-- especially if the person is not in a recovery program.

I have to run-- I'd just say to avoid buying into some of the anti-sub garbage. It is NOT a great way to get rich in medicine; there are far easier ways, than working with addiction-- that is why so few docs work with buprenorphine, at least in my part of the world. The good docs are the ones, in my opinion, who keep people on the medication for a long period of time-- at LEAST a year. People write things like 'Suboxone is OK only if used short-term'-- that shows that the person knows nothing about actually treating addiction, as studies have clearly showed that such use has a very, very low rate of success. The way to make money, I suppose, would be to keep seeing, inducing, and discharging people... but that would not be good medicine.

Take care--

JJ


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:16 pm 
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This thread is a perfect example of why I keep coming back to this damn forum! Information based on a wide range of other peoples education and experience is powerful. No doubt that addicts considering rapid detox will be referred to this thread for awhile to come.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Sugarcain,

You said: "There is actually a class-action suit being started with Suboxone. This also worries me. We are addicts right? So being on Sub is just keeping us addicted. It IS an opiate. That is why everyone feels content in their "so called" recovery."

First, I've found zero evidence of a class action lawsuit against suboxone, just a lot of unsubstantiated talk of it on rapid detox websites. I found a class action suit against a doctor who prescribed suboxone, but nothing against Reckitt. So please cite some source regarding your allegation of a class action suit.

Secondly, Suboxone may be a type of opiate, although it is not molecularly the same (per Dr. Junig's blog) as a full opiate agonist. And our "so-called" recovery? Please, you didn't just say that.

This forum is not for the purposes of debating the pros and cons, it's for people who've chosen recovery. That last statement is clearly anti-suboxone.

Everyone here has been supportive of you, even if not of your decision to use rapid-detox. Everyone here has been respectful. Telling us our recovery is "so-called" is disrespectful at best, and I don't find it to be a fair statement to the many people who are supporting you.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:18 pm 
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Quote:
I do not look down on anyone who uses this medication for their recovery.


I did say that as well..........

That post might have been a little harsh. But my tendencies to talk about my experience come across negative because I have had a BAD experience.
I do not blame my Dr. for all of it. I blame myself for not researching it before I put that tablet under my tongue.
That is why I am here now. To find out how others are coping with their Suboxone.
I am not coping well.
I am truly sorry. The last thing I wanted to do was offend anyone who is working a program that fits their lifestyle.
I am not Anti-Sub. I think that it works for a lot of people. And I think that everyone on this forum HAS shown me compassion.
Again, I want to apologize to anyone who might have taken that negatively.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:13 pm 
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I also wanted to add a few more things to my last post.

The class action suit DID come from a post I read ON LINE. Now I am on line with this site, and I believe everyone that has posted here. Not that I am gullible. It had a lot of truth behind it. It hasn't reached FDA level, but there have been enough people duped onto this med. People on a 10 a day vicodin addiction from a doctor's prescription. I do not believe that this would call for such a strong replacement therapy. That is exactly how I ended up on Methadone. 10 Vic's a day. That can be easily weened off of. In a matter of a couple weeks. If that. But once your Dr. thinks you are addicted, he will drop you for liability reasons. It happened to me.
So I can see why it would get to a class-action level if enough people were put on it unethically. Especially by someone with a PHD for addiction.

So my apologies for posting something that has not been recorded or documented. It is just that I can understand why there would be such an action taken in some cases.

Again. All of my thanks to understanding my decision. And I want to especially thank the people who have wished me luck on my journey.
As I wish ALL of you luck on yours................


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:39 am 
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I must admit that I am quite curious why they put people on suboxone if methadone is easier to wean off of and then had a 10 a day vic habit. From what I understand, you were almost weaned off of the methadone when you went to that doctor for the suboxone. I also have to wonder what happened in that appointment because I agree that your doc seems a bit unorthodox. On the other hand, if you were weaning down on the methadone just fine, what caused you to go to the suboxone doc again? When you went in, what did you ask him for or what was the presenting "problem" you were asking him to help you with?

Either way, I do sometimes wonder why suboxone is chosen for people with addictions that aren't that long standing and are at lower levels of opiates such as vicodin.

I wish I had researched it more before I took it too, but it wouldn't have changed anything because it was really the only option that would work for me and it has done its job.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:15 am 
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This is what happened.
My mother died from methadone toxicity. My friend had just seen a psychiatrist that put her on sub for a vicodin habit. That is right. She was put on it for a vicodin habit. Neither one of us had ever been IV drug users or had used anything stronger before replacement therapy.
I went in to see if he could help me. She was told by him many wonderful things about the medication and I was curious. I was not too sure if he could ween me off of the methadone. He talked about how bad methadone is on the system. That it is a man made narcotic and is very hard on the body. I believed this because of what happened to my mother. That I would be much better off on Sub. It was easy to ween off of with little to NO withdawal. That there was a blocker in it that kept opiates from reaching pain receptors and that in time they would heal. With the vic and methadone use, he said that my receptors had been damaged. He told me to go down 3 more mgs, which I did, then he wrote me a script for 40mg slow release oxi to chew every 4 hours for 10 days. Oxi was a much stronger opiate than vicodin. And vicodin withdrawal is what got me on methadone. I did as the Dr. asked and went back to his office 10 days later full of hope.
Now, 2 and 1/2 years later I am dosing 16 mgs of sub a day. I can see why. I was taking 240mgs of oxis for 10 days before starting the treatment.
I am just as perplexed as you. I went from a methadone clinic, to being under a Dr.'s care. I trusted him. Every word he said.
Now I am fighting for my life back. I hope that Rapid Detox will help me through the worst of it. Then I will have to rely on the great support system I have here at home. My Dr. does not know I am doing this. He does not know that I will not be seeing him in his office again.
Hope that helps with your questions. But I still have many myself.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:29 am 
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By the way. I start my colon cleansing tonight for the pre-treatment. Really looking forward to that :wink: .......


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:35 am 
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sugarcain wrote:
This is what happened. My mother died from methadone toxicity. He talked about how bad methadone is on the system. That it is a man made narcotic and is very hard on the body. I believed this because of what happened to my mother.


Not sure what you mean by toxicity and don't understand where your MD got the info about methadone. I was advised by more than one dr that methadone has no long-term ill effects on our body organs. The following was taken from Fact Sheet-Office of US Drug Control Policy:

Like any controlled substance, there is a risk of abuse. When used as prescribed and under a physician's care, research and clinical studies suggest that long-term MMT is medically safe (COMPA, 1997). When methadone is taken under medical supervision, long-term maintenance causes no adverse effects to the heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, bones, blood, brain, or other vital body organs. Methadone produces no serious side effects, although some patients experience minor symptoms such as constipation, water retention, drowsiness, skin rash, excessive sweating, and changes in libido. Once methadone dosage is adjusted and stabilized or tolerance increases, these symptoms usually subside.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:10 pm 
Sugarcain, I think you're confused about something. You have mentioned several times in your posts that it was "just Vicodin" that you were on that started all this. You've said or implied that your addiction was somehow made worse after you sought treatment. You imply or state that doctors got you addicted to Methadone and then to Oxycodone before eventually getting you addicted to Suboxone. The truth is......You were and are addicted to opiates /period/ Your brain does not know the difference between hydrocodone (Vicodin), oxycodone, etc, etc. The truth is if you could have simply weaned and stopped the hydrocodone, you would have! We can't......we're addicted to opiates. Lots and lots and lots of people were 'only' addicted to hydrocodone, some were addicted to even less potent opiates like Tramadol (Ultram.) You're no less an addict than the guy or gal who's shooting heroin. There's a part of me that hates saying that. I want it to be different and in many ways it is different. But the bottom line is whether it started with a legitimate Rx for Vicodin or whether it started with shooting up heroin, the result is the same.......dependence and then addiction. There is a difference between the two and I'm sure you know which category you fall in to. If your problem were purely dependence, there is little doubt in my mind that you would have been successful in weaning and stopping Suboxone already. I just can't wrap my mind around how anyone who cannot taper down on buprenorphine can expect to be able to stay off opiates for the long haul. I think anyone who has ever managed to put together enough 'clean' time to experience PAWS will tell you that it is not the initial detox alone that leads to their ultimate relapse......it's the longer term stuff that keeps drawing us back into active addiction. Until and unless everything that led to the addiction is dealt with and everything in one's life is settled and stable (whatever that means :? ), it's just not going to go away. I don't know, that's the way I see it anyway.
I seriously do wish you the best, Sugarcain. I've said before and I'll say again, I hope you've got some real firm plans in place for more help when you get home.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:51 pm 
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Boy. I feel like I am repeating myself here. Not that I am upset by it. I don't mind telling my story.
I am not denying my initial addiction. I was in a lot of pain during my Physical Therapy. I look back and wish I could have been weened off, but it was not an option being that I was cut off.
That scared the hell out of me. I knew I had become addicted. So I eventually tried buying from the street, but that didn't go well and it was very expensive. To be weened, you need some knowledge of addiction and I had virtually none at that point. I was GREEN. It was primal. JUST KEEP FROM GETTING SICK.
So YES. I traded the Vicodin for Methadone being that it was much less expensive than the $5 per pill to keep me out of withdrawal.
I am not confused. My addiction WAS made worse. I can't tell you how the thought of withdrawal was so bad that I would do anything to keep from going through that. I had no idea how long it would last. And I had a child to take care of as a single mother with a full time job. I knew of no Dr. that would take me as a new patient to withdrawal me from the Vicodin.
We are liabilities at that point.
I am not going to explain the Sub thing again. It was the fear after losing my mother to Methadone, and the hope that my new Psychiatrist had given me.
How am I confused? I KNOW I am addicted. That is why I am seeking Rapid Detox. I may have played a role in some of it. But being naive about opiates was my biggest downfall.
At the Methadone clinic I was told I would be stabilized and weened off. That I may feel a little sick at the smaller doses, And that was true. Like in the earlier post with the topic of Methadone being safe. That is not what my Psychologist told me, and he is an addictionologist. My Sub treatment by him was all explained in an earlier post.
So I leave Monday morning. With a lot of hope and a lot of trepidation as well as determination. But I am willing to do whatever it takes to stop this cycle. And I, in no way, feel above anyone else on this forum.
I am just like all of you. I am on a replacemennt therapy. I guess the difference is, that I do not feel that it is working for me as well as it is for a lot of you.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:34 am 
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So, you are saying that you had no idea that Methadone and Suboxone were stronger than the hydrocodone you intitially got hooked on and you feel like you were mislead to believe they would be easy to get off of. I can understand that to a certain extent. I think the most important thing to consider here is what replacement therapy is really trying to accomplish. I think if you just look at it from the avoiding withdrawals perspective you loose track of the whole point. There are plenty of people who get clean cold turkey, get through the withdrawals, only to relapse later because they are truely an addict. Suboxone and Methadone are strong long acting opiates designed to control your body and your minds addicition so you can learn how to live a normal live again. They need to be strong and long acting so ideally you can take them once a day and spend the rest of the day living your life without thinking about using. Yes, you are physically dependent to the drug and it may be very uncomfortable to get off of but if you are getting off of it that should mean that you are at the point in your recovery were you feel you can obstain from using with out using one of these tools any longer. That's a great thing to have accomplished. I have a question? Would you say that you are addicted to Suboxone? I would say that I was addicted to vicodin and I'm dependent on suboxone. Big difference in my mind.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Well, to answer your question about my confusion with the medication is hard to explain. I went into the Methadone clinic on a 10-12 Vicodin problem and was suffering withdrawal. I was dosed at 30mgs and felt really messed up. Then I stabilized after a few days and they upped me to 70mgs slowly and I stayed at that for awhile. Then I weened myself down to a bit under 15mgs with minor discomfort.I was feeling normal and able to do my daily stuff again because I wasn't sick in withdrawal. But, I was still having to worry about DOSING every day. I would have anxiety about the clinic being closed and forgetting, especially when I was at monthly take homes.
With the Sub, I asked my Psychiatrist how strong it was. He said. And I quote, "I really can't give an exact strength of this medication." Should have been a red flag. I had plenty of those. But as you said, I was feeling OK and living day to day just fine on Methadone. I thought that Suboxone was going to be easier to completely taper off of. He told me that I would be in severe withdrawal from Methadone if I quit even at a small dose and Suboxone would not do that. BECAUSE OF THE BLOCKER.
Another angle to swap my meds I guess. Not sure, as I have said before, why he switched me to Oxi's then to Sub, instead of weening me himself.
And to answer if I feel addicted to Suboxone. The answer would be yes to that question because I am. It is an opiate and I have to dose every day to avoid withdrawal. I guess I consider that if I HAVE to take an opiate every day, I am still addicted in a sense. I just do not want to have to MAINTAIN anymore.
Everyone has their different views on this medication. I feel stable enough to work and cook dinner with my family, but I also feel like I am carrying so much weight around with me. I feel very weighed down. And exhausted. All of the time.
I have a friend who was put on Sub for Vicodin use from the same Dr. She weened down to .5 mgs and stopped cold turkey. She had a very high fever (104), low blood pressure and violent diarrhea and nausea for about 3-4 weeks. That is exactly what sent me running to the Methadone clinic to begin with. And her Suboxone withdrawal was severe.
She has been off of Sub for over a year now and is doing great. I am very proud of her. And Jealous as well.
I just don't want to DEPEND on anything to get me through the day anymore. That is where I am at in my recovery.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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