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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:35 am 
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So here it will begin. I just turned 30 and I've been battling a heroin addiction for 13 years. On and off… heroin to methadone, back to heroin, clean time, overdoses, car accidents, and 3 years of successfully suboxone treatment that started about 7 years ago. Problem was about 4 years ago, I decided that I didn't want to have to depend on a medication every day. I had a great job, married with 2 children one in the way, house, 2 cars,etc. anyways, I say all of that because life was GOOD. and then I guess I got cocky.

I decided that after (at that time) 8 years of battling this addiction, all of the pain and turmoil that I had caused my family, that I had been clean for the last 3 years, and I could now live life like a "normal" person again. So I discussed the detox plan with my doctor and began the detox from subs. All went well until about 2 days after I took my last 2 mg dose. WITHDRAWLS!!! I Haden's felt these in years and my doc assured me there would be none. So I roughed it our for a few days, no sleeping, poor appetite, and work performance was obviously being affected. So the thought crept in. "Just once" to take the edge off. And any addict reading this knows how bad that ALWAYS goes. In a matter of 2 months I was back to a $150-200 a day habit and lost EVERYTHING. My job, by house 1 of the cars, even sold my dog for dope cash. We now had 3 kids and the youngest is a newborn. We're living at my wife's parents house, I'm collecting unemployment and spending all of it on heroin. Soon I'm asked to leave and I'm bouncing around to shelters, detoxes, hotels and just surviving every day to keep the pain away. I cashed in my retirement plan from my union job and was walking around with $9,000 cash and King Kong sized heroin habit. The money was gone in weeks. So I checked out a methadone clinic and that only reduced the amount of dope I used for a few months.

Then, the arrests started coming. In a 9 month period I caught 4 felony possession cases, and a felony DUI. I found myself in county jail detoxing cold turkey from a 120 mg methadone and $100/day heroin (that my dealer was cutting with xanax) for 5 weeks. I didn't sleep for the first 19 days I was there in county jail. I got out, on probation and immediately started getting high again. I was still sick after 5 weeks. So I ducked and dodged probation for as long as I could and finally found refuge in a 28 day rehab. I bolted after 15 days and overdosed in a McDonalds bathroom on the west side of Chicago that very night. Then 8 days later my unemployment check came and I had the dope dealer deliver $200 worth of heroin to my moms place (where I was temporarily seeking refuge) and overdosed again that night. My mother found me not breathing and lifeless on the floor of the bathroom and administered CPR to me until the paramedics/police arrived. This was 1/11/11 (easy day to remember, as for the next 11 months it would be my "clean date") I recovered in the hospital for 2 days and then BOOM warrants from previous arrests started falling. Here I am again in county jail being offered 6 years in prison or 6 months of inpatient rehab. Easy choice. I go through 6 months of rehab and then another 3 months at a halfway house. I moved back to where my wife and now 4 kids are, back to my in-laws house. I get a great job right away but only manage to stay clean until thanksgiving day 2011. So for almost exactly the last year I've i been using again. Not everyday. I did again seek refuge at the local methadone clinic (which the one here where I live in Chicagoland is an enabler to a less stressfull way to still use heroin but never be dope sick.) So about a month ago I stopped cold turkey from 50mg of methadone and have been using straight heroin daily.

Which brings me to present day. Last week my family agreed to pay for a doctor to get a suboxone script again. Since so many years ago I did have great success on it, this is my last ditch effort. Im still on probation and still facing the 6 years of prison if I screw this up. Probation is aware of what's going on but it all hinges on the next few days, can I make the switch from my last shot of heroin 6 hours ago to waking up in the morning and successfully inducing myself onto suboxone. If I don't, probation is going to sanction me back to court where I'll be facing the promised 6 years.

I'm scared, and nervous right now. But I also feel motivated in a way. I guess that's part of why I wrote all of this. The gravity of the outcome of the choices that I make in the next 72 or so hours is HUGE. I have a beautiful wife and 4 beautiful children that this addiction wants to take away from me. Life without heroin is possible. I just need to believe that.

My doctor gave me a script of the strips ( which I haven't tried) at a dose of 12 mg/day. I plan to wake up feeling sick and take half of a strip (4mg) and then the other half mid-day. And then another 4mg tomorrow night, where I will be back here to update my progress of the day. I welcome any advice , opinions, or suggestions,etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:04 am 
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Fuck man. Firstly welcome back to "the path". But before I start, I just wanna say how sobering your story is for me. It's such a full-on reminder that I can so easily "go back under". I like you am nearing 30 years old and started using at 17, and understand how difficult it can be to let go of a drug (heroin) that my growing teenage brain had in permanent infusion. It's also got me questioning whether choosing to go without Suboxone is a smart move. Often I wonder whether I can live without it, but if just trying can lead back deeper into that world... is it worth trying?

Welcome back. Am I wrong in suggesting your habits likely gone up a bit since those years ago when you were on Sub? Just be aware that greater habits = more rough induction usually. So err on the side of caution with your dosing times etc. It's a hard balance I know.

Also stick around on here, really. This place helps a lot. After you get accustomed to Suboxone, your addiction (which has grown used to the stimulation of methadone and larger doses of heroin) may not find Sub's partial-antagonist effects enough. Your mind still may "jog" a bit. But you've been on Sub and you know the drill. As long as you're motivated, and you have a LOT of reasons to be motivated, there's no reason why your life can't come back into order.

Good luck!

tj


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Hi and welcome. You definitely have been through the wringer and now have a golden opportunity to hold on to what is most dear to you, your family and your freedom. I hope this Suboxone experience is successful as it sounds like it was the last time. You should definitely consider staying on it for the long term. It might be a little late to post this, but I hope you know that you need to wait until you are in moderate withdrawal to take your first dose. If you did take the Sub too soon and experienced precipitated WD, you need to stick it out and keep dosing your Sub until you get through it. There is a lot of info. on Dr. J's blog that you might find helpful. I hope you come back and let us know how your induction went.
I wish you the best on your new start in recovery,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Hey guys and thanks for your replies. This is my first time every involved in a forum of any kind and I wasn't sure if anyone out there was actually going to read this let alone post replies. So it was very encouraging to hear all of that from you. I'm going use this forum to be 100% honest with everything. Addiction makes it so easy to lie that it almost becomes second nature especially when talking to people about heroin. However I decided that there's no point to me being on this forum unless I'm totally honest about my real struggles. So here's where I'm at today…

Well it's currently 5:30 here where I live in Chicago. Today didn't quite go as planned. I woke up this morning definitely in moderate withdrawl. So in started to induce by taking just 2 mg. not good results. I felt worse. I've experienced precipitated withdrawl one time about 4 years ago, and that's what it felt like. Soft stool turned to diarreah and I began sneezing unconrolabally. So I went from feeling bad to worse, and made a bad choice. I justified going to pick up 4 bags to feel human again. I figured that at least some good was done by getting the suboxone in my system which should eliminate the precipitated withdrawl happening tomorrow. I HOPE.

So right now I feel just fine because if the 4 bags I got, unfinished them earlier, so by the time that I wake up tomorrow I will be about 19 hours after last use and with at least some suboxone in my system. I'm going to need to stay a lot more mentally tough tomorrow because I know that doing a suboxone/heroin dance everyday will be a miserably failing proccess.

I have one last question if someone could reply to, if I do feel the precipitated withdrawl again, can I just take more suboxone? Will that take the withdrawls away? Thanks in advance for any advice.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Your post made me teary eyed.. it brought back all those crazy memories. The fast food bathrooms.. dodging the police, fleeing states to avoid arrest. This is truly what suboxone is for. The last ditch effort to keep people like us from killing ourselves.

It sounds like you are really getting tired of the life, I hope so. That's the only way this works, I believe.. Get back on suboxone, find a good dose that isn't too much/ too little and stay on it for a while!! Years if you have to. Some wouldn't agree with that but it's what saved my life and my husband's life and our story is a lot like yours. You need as much distance as you can get. It is my personal opinion that the meth clinics don't give you the distance that one really needs to make changes.

Good luck, keep us posted if you need anything.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Inducing is never fun. You have to just rip it off like a band aid unless you are one of the really disciplined ones that can take small doses while still using but all that was too much for me to handle and a bit messy/ dangerous, IMO. Take more sub next time and just ride it out.. it's the only way. Try not to keep making excuses.. next thing you know it will be next year. This happened to me so many times. A half of a year would go by and I'd still be coming up with reasons for inducing "tomorrow."

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Hang in there
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:43 am 
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This is a quote from a dr. Junig blog article about p/w...

"The best response to precipitated withdrawal is to take the prescribed dose of Suboxone/buprenorphine each day, without trying to overcome the symptoms by taking more of an agonist or extra Suboxone.  Doing so only lengthens the period of withdrawal, and considerably increases the risk of death."


Read more at http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/avoidin ... mCU2IJP.99


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:30 am 
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In ONE of these video's of Dr. J's.............
http://www.youtube.com/user/SuboxDoc


It says, for heroin OR methadone users, that start with a "low dose" for induction, if YOU DO hit precipitated W/D's to TAKE
another DOSE,,,, up to your "regular dose" and that the LONGEST the precipitated w/d will last is 1-2 hours.

I don't know if that's true or NOT............
i DO KNOW however that going from 150/180 mg of methadone a day, to suboxone in a week, was ROUGH, to say
the least.

i didn't have acess to ANYTHING online, or Im sure I would have THOUGHT I was in precipitated w/d , but really it was
just ""MY INDUCTION""
my doctor thought I'd "do just fine" going from 150 to 100 to 80 to 40 in four days, then day 6 taking the suboxone.

Ended up with 32mg I think, that first 24 hours,
and still had the RESTLESS LEGS, the sweating hot then sweating cold,,,,,, of course runing to the toilet, you get the idea..................................
it STILL WAS NOT AS BAD as that much methadone to NOTHING, which at that point, is what I was used to.
i was stuck in this horrible cycle of trying to get high,
so whatever i HAD ,,, i took.....

I digress.........
if it were ME,,, in your shoes, I'd wait as LONG as I POSSIBLY COULD,,,,
OR
try something else, SHORT ACTING,,,, for a few days, to get your tolerance down.

there's also been people that have posted inducting from heroin to suboxone, to take
IMMODIUM and alot of it. something about that drug, hits ONE of the opiate receptors, but doesn't
affect others,
or some scientific jargon like that.
It couldn't hurt, right?

I REALLY hope you can see this through.
i dont think it's going to be anything like the FIRST suboxone induction you went through.

[marq=right]******GOOD LUCK******[/marq]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ls1F6vNhYw&feature=plcp[/youtube]

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its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:16 pm 
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When inducing onto Suboxone, it's not so much how long you've waited, it has a lot more to do with how shitty you're feeling.

You said you were in moderate wd, did you score yourself on the COWS? Here's a link to it, it's the Clinical Opiate Wd Scale (COWS). Ideally, you should have someone else score you too. We tend to score ourselves a lot higher than we actually are. Anyway, here's the link: http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_ind ... _sheet.pdf

I'm sure I'm not going to explain this next part quite right, but I'm going to give it a shot. When inducing onto Suboxone from your drug of choice, you have to make sure enough of your drug of choice is out of your system because even with small amounts of it in there, you're still feeling effects from it. Say being high could be measured on a scale of 1 to 10....10 being stoned out of your mind. Even though you're in wd from your drug of choice, you may still have enough drug in you to be measuring a 3 or 4, even though you don't feel it (this would be due to your tolerance). Suboxone, being a partial agonist, will only get you to a 1 or 2, so when you take it, you all of a sudden go from a 3 or 4 on the "high scale" down to a 1 or 2 and that's why you feel it so bad. Did that make any sense?

Anyhow, the crappier you feel before you get on Suboxone, the better chance you have of it working properly.

Good luck.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:08 am 
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Romeo's right..................Just for the record. :roll:


AND,,,
haven't heard anything from you, so just wondering if you tried agian, or if you DID it,
or what's going on...........

Its fairly common on this board to hear people going from heroin to suboxone, they don't feel "good" or even "better" for about
3-5 days,
just in general...........It's really common to hear they are in precipitated w/ds,,,,,,, who knows though, becuz heroin and
methadone BOTH make your tolerance sky high, at least as far as trying to induce with suboxone, it does.

If at first you don't succeed, TRY TRY again.......................


hope your doing allright :wink:

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:45 am 
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Hey Riggsy...

Don't beat yourself up too bad. You'd be surprised how many people switching from heroin -> suboxone or methadone -> suboxone end up doing exactly what you did. There have been MANY over the last couple of years on this forum.

But I'm not excusing it, because it can become a really nasty cycle. Induce on Sub, suffer some moderate PW -> go to the dealers for relief ... get mild relief from heroin... then when they induce the next time it's just as hard again! Some people keep doing it 5 or 6 times before they get sick of trying and either give up inducing, or actually stick to their choice to stay on Sub.

I'm a big believer that you just gotta "stick at it". Once you induce, just don't give up. PW can feel nasty, but it's temporary and it does get better. The first rush of uncomfortability is the feeling of Suboxone displacing the leftover heroin in your system. They say that all the heroin is out of your body around 72-96 hours after using, which just happens to be when the withdrawal symptoms peak. So the closer you can get to this point, the easier the induction will be.

Inducing before that stage means there's the possibility of some PW as there's still some heroin / morphine metabolites floating around. How much depends on how much of a habit you had (I think what kinda gear you were using plays a role too but this is just a suspicion). When yo ustart to feel PW, try the dose raise thing like Amber / Dr. J said. I guess the idea behind it is that after the initial dose, most of the heroin has been displaced already by the first dose, so you may find you can start to feel more relief as your dose reaches the ceiling after the initial displacement.

Good luck


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Its been a couple days since your last post. Hope all is well.


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