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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:55 am 
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Hello,well its now been 72hrs since my last dose.yesterday was fine until midday when I found out someone stole my buss. Bank info & drained all my money from my acc.talk about kicking u when ur down.that was a ass whiping to my brain.but I'll get it back from the bank just take a few days.last night was about the same as the night before restless.took 2 tynonal pm's Last night got to sleep about 2 or 230 in the morning til 7 this morning.still feel fine just a little more lazy now but got to do some work today.so just push thru it"really not to bad"just lazy.well I'm guessing a 72hrs subs should b out of my sistomom.am I thinking right?can't wait to feel normal again.my wife has been great thru this.she wants me off & is ready for me to b back to normal so hope I get there quik.main thing now is I really don't care about anything.just want to get thru.so I know it hard for my wife & kids 3&2.good thing is I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel. I told my brain on monday is when I will feel better & better every day so looking foward to that!thank u all! I'm still kicking & really hasn't been as bad as I thought. Thanks,ratt396

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Ratt396- I'm glad you are feeling pretty good at 72 hours. I just want to let you know, though, that buprenorphine sticks around our bodies for a very long time - I've seen a graph that shows from one 16 mg dose you can still detect bupe in the body at 240 hours - that's 10 days. :?
How long did you do .25? If you did it for a couple of weeks, you might be right about all of it being gone in 72 hours - but suboxone is a weird drug, we all metabolize it differently. I just would hate to see you get to Tuesday and have the full effect of WD's come down on your head.
:D Good news: My husband is a PA who specializes in psychopharmocology. He just showed me a study where Ultram ER (extended release tramadol) is useful in treating restless legs. Restless legs have been a big problem for me in past cold turkey WD's off morphine IV. He's promised me when I get to zero suboxone, if I have restless legs again, he'll let me try some tramadol to see if it helps ease the kicking.
Interestingly, at the psych hospital where I work we are using tramadol in 50 mg doses every 2 hours up to 400 mg/24 hrs to withdraw opiate addicts from their drug of choice. It seems to be working pretty well. No reinforcing buzz, but good control of WD symptoms. Because of bupe's extra strong affinity for opiate receptors, I don't think tramadol would work well to try to withdraw we bupe addicts - but it may be useful when we get down to the .25 and lower doses.
Good luck, Ratt - may your WD's proceed smoothly.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:45 pm 
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Here are a few graphs that someone posted a little while back. I THINK it might have been one of our moderators, shelwoy.....but please don't quote that! I know it was from someone who is totally reliable on here. Good Luck and Take Care!!




Half Life Graph 1: Single 16mg bupe dose half life graph.


Half Life Graph 2: Several doses.


Graph 3: This is an interesting one, comparing once daily, to 'thrice-weekly' dosing.

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 Post subject: Careful with Tramadol!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Hey Xonedone, I just want to say to be very careful with Tramadol. It can be as addictive as most opiates and without a doubt creates the same level of physical dependence. There are all sorts of people, myself included, that are on Subxone in whole or in part due to Tramadol use/abuse. While it may help with restless legs, and I'll get it will, it acts very much like an opiate in your body and in most cases will place a person right back on the road to drug abuse. I don't think there are very many docs at all that will recommend Tramadol to anyone with an addiction history. Take it for what it's worth, but I would stay clear of Tramadol and would strongly suggest that other readers to the same.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Donh is 100% right about the Tramadol. You are finally off the sub and you don't want to sabotage yourself in your treatment you will steer clear from this. Before I started the Suboxone treatment I used Tramadol to keep the wd's at bay while I waited for my DOC. It did help with the wd's but I was delaying the inevitable. If you are to take something to help with the restless legs I would recommend Clonazepam it will or should help you get some sleep. I would even recommend taking a Diazepam(Valium) before taking something like Tramadol at least if you take a Benzodiazepine responsible it wont have any effects in delaying or drawing out the withdraws process. Well what ever you decide I am sure you will make the right choice and I wish you the best of luck on and through your journey on the other side! Keep us posted on your journey as it will help and inspire many off us trying to achieve what you have.
~Joseph


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:02 pm 
I totally agree with you, donh. I think Tramadol is a bad choice for an opiate addict. I've been real surprised to learn that there are doctors out there who are using Tramadol as part of their protocol in 'detoxing' patients off full-agonists and/or bupe. I don't have any literature or anything about it. But I've been told by at least a few different people that their doctor has prescribed them Tramadol for this. I know what the drug is and what it is not. I remember when it first came out - the drug rep would bring it around and talk about this wonderful new drug 'Ultram" that worked as well as hydrocodone but had no abuse potential, etc. Within only a year or so (this was back in the early to mid 90s if I'm not mistaken) there was talk of people indeed abusing Ultram and becoming just as addicted to it as to hydro or oxy. This all was way before I got caught up in my own addiction, but I do clearly remember it.
So, yeah, I would avoid Tramadol......I think it could easily be the first slip down the slope to the Hell we've already visited!! No thanks.....I think I'll stick to Benedryl or something much more benign than Tramadol for sleep or restless legs.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:59 am 
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Hello all,its now been about 96hrs yesterday was the hardest day so far.low energy not real bad but had to make my self work.& had some personal issuses at home that didn't help any but I'm sure I cauzed them.just cuz I'm in my own world trying to get thru this.but last night went to bed at 1030 or 1100 took a tynaol pm just 1 & slept pretty good woke up prob 2 or 3 times but the restlessness wasn't to bad was able to get back to sleep with in the half hour.its about 8am now just got to work got to do a couple of things today.I'm feeling pretty ok not sure about energy yet but feel fine now"becide just the nomarl adjataion of everything"hoping I'll start getting better everyday.not sure what that is yet.just hav that feeling of just want to b left alone.but like I said befor only one way out & that's to go thru it.thanks & good luck to all!ratt396

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:13 am 
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Well it sounds like you are doing ok considering. I do recall wanting to be left alone and that does last a while. But all in all, it sounds like you are hanging in there far better than if you had withdrawals from typical opiates. Hang in there. It will get better and it will go away. It may not seem like it at times....but it will. Suboxone just takes a long time.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:08 am 
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Hey, jack how long did it take for u to start feeling better. " just like ok today seems better"like I said so far its been a blessing in comprasion to what I was thinking.I'm still working & steel doors&frames r heavy.thanks,ratt396

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Ratt - glad today has been better. Hang in there :D
Thanks, donh, setmefree & joseph for the cautions on tramadol. I have been very surprised how well my patients are doing coming off heroin on tramadol.
With your cautions I may try other things, or just live through the kicking, although in the past it's been so awful...on the other hand I was WDing off full agonists then and this time I'm not...
Doing well at 4 mg here...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:40 pm 
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I think Tramadol is still a very misunderstood drug by all sorts of people. For me, personally, I used Tramadol for over two years as my "Suboxone". What happened is I ran out of everything and was in the thick of withdrawals. I got to a point where I ransacked the house for ANYTHING and found a bottle of Tramadol that my ex-wife had. I had read a thing or two about Tramadol, including that one of the rapid detox places used it as a pre-medication for their induction. I also thought that I had read that in higher doses it will block other narcotics. I did know that it was not a true narcotic, was not a controlled substance, but acted like a narcotic on those receptors. So being an addict and in full withdrawals, I thought, "What the hell" and gave it a try. I could not believe how within 45 minutes I felt much, much better. It was almost like a mini version of when I was administered my first Suboxone. It was on that day that I started to use Tramadol on a daily basis. Only with Tramadol, it was much, much easier to get and I quickly had multiple Internet sources. In some ways, it does seem to be sort of like Suboxone. Like Subs, it really didn't ever get me "high" but it would keep withdrawals away, and allow me to feal pretty "normal". Unfortunately, it is also NOT like Suboxone in many ways and that would include the fact that you need higher and higher doses to get the same effect - just like a typical narcotic, By the time I was done I was up to five or six pills at a time. It also has a short half-life. In these ways, it is not a good candidate for detox or maintenance.

The thing about Tramadol though is it seems like most doctors are not aware of the physical dependence/addictive properties of it. Most doctors I talk with don't think it works very well for pain and don't prescribe it at all or rarely. There are some docs that seem to want to prescribe it when someone says that they have an addiction problem with opiates. This is a BAD IDEA. Even the DEA seems content to allow it to stay a non-scheduled drug. I don't know if that's because it lacks the euphoric properties or what??? I doubt it's a problem on the streets in part due to it not being a controlled substance. From everything I've read, however, and from what I experienced first hand, it is every bit as hard to come off of as any other narcotic. Oxycodone seems to get worse, faster, as far as withdrawals, but Tramadol gave me each and every symptom, toe to toe that Oxycodone did.

Personally, I think eventually the world is going to wise up about Tramadol and I also think that the DEA at some point will schedule this medication. I just think it's going to take a lot more time for this to happen.

I just thought I'd throw out some additional info and insight on Tramadol. Xonedone, you mentioned about "your patients" being on Tramadol. What do you do or what type of practitioner are you that you have "patients"?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:05 pm 
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It is amazing how all of our bodies are SO different.

I never had any 'luck' with Tramadol. Before I continue, I want to say that this is MY expereince and I know many others have had different ones. I do agree that Tramadol should be Scheduled. I don't know if it should be II but mabye III or something? I have heard many stories online and I know quite a few people that did get 'high' from Tramadol or even like in Donh's case, it didn't get him high but it took care of the w/d's. For me personally, I did try Tramadols and the Ultracets (Tramadol with apap I believe) when I was w/d and could not find anything else, but they didn't work for me. I started with the recommended dose and worked my way up to several at a time with in a short period of time. I know I was at or above the daily recommended limit for Tramadol and I could not find any relief from it at that time an Oxy w/d (large doses I guess). The guy who was taking them for w/d said they worked great for them but he didn't feel high (as you said donh, worked for w/d but no high). We were about same age (he was couple years younger like 22-ish at the time, I was like 24-ish) same height and same weight (he might have been a little lighter than me) and I could not understand why they weren't working for me. I also remember being scared that I would have a seziure (sp?) so I am sure that my mental state did not help any. Well, like I said, this was my experience but I have heard a bunch others who do abuse them to get high and/or ones that used them for legit pain relief with success, and stories like donh's that they didn't get him high but helped with the w/d. I think by not being Scheduled they are asking for trouble and they could probably cut down on diversion and/or abuse by making them Schedule IV, III, II or whatever.

Once again, a little ramble to add. Again, I am not an expert or doctor, but just sharing something that happened with me and my thoughts. Good luck and take care as always!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Hi ratt369,so glad everything is going well and that you aren't suffering too much.
I just wanted to make a point, and please don't anybody think i'm getting in their faces or trying to be superior in any way BUT:
Whenever anyone on this site says that they are planning to taper, stop suboxone or whatever, we all rush to suggest alternative pills and potions to ease the suffering. Surely being clean means BEING CLEAN, not taking stuff like Ultram, Xanax or Valium. Now don't get me wrong, I am nowhere near being in any way ready to quit suboxone yet, in fact that may never happen. However if I ever DO try to get clean, I'm not going to look to another drug to take away a twitchy leg or get me to sleep at night. That's how I got into this fucking mess in the first place.And please don't try to say that's what I'm doing by taking suboxone, thats not the same thing and you know it. Suboxone is a very effective part of a cure for a deadly disease, i.e. opiate addiction. Valium has never cured anything as far as I'm aware.
I appreciate that many of us have jobs and families, and can't afford to be sick for several days or weeks until withdrawals subside, but hey let's at least give it a try before reaching for the pills huh?
Anyway, sorry if my comments have upset anyone, I really came on here to offer ratt369 some extra moral support and encouragement. Keep at it my friend, by letting us know how it goes you are giving us all some positive reinforcement. Best of luck to you, and best wishes to your family also. They must be very proud of you!


PS. I was seriously considering not posting this afterall,but after thinking long and hard I'm gonna let it stand and take any flak that comes. I just wanted to make the point that after all we have been through we still think like junkies and perhaps always will.
Peace and love,
Sneaky


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Your comments don't upset me by any means but I don't agree necessarily. For me, taking ativan to get through withdrawals (maybe took 10 total - 4 ativan and 6 xanax) was to help me "get through" withdrawals. I say anything that gets you through without getting back on the DOC is acceptable. I do NOT think taking it for more than 1-2 weeks makes any sense. For me it wasn't about what would make me work necessarily but what would prevent me from putting a gun to my head or would prevent me from using.

With that being said......I shouldn't be off suboxone anyways. But I find the cravings of any withdrawal to be too strong to deal with and not have a "break" from it. something has to take the edge off.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:14 am 
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Tramadol possesses agonist actions at the μ-opioid receptor and inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine and serotonin. Tramadol is a compound with mild and delayed μ-agonist activity.

Tramadol is a synthetic stripped-down piperidine-analog of the phenantherane alkaloid codeine and, as such, is an opioid and also a pro-drug (codeine is metabolized to morphine, tramadol is converted to M-1 aka O-desmethyltramadol). Opioids are chemical compounds which act upon one or more of the human opiate receptors (the euphoria, addictive nature and respiratory depression are mainly caused by the Mu(μ) 1 and 2 receptor. The opioid agonistic effect of Tramadol and its major metabolite(s) are almost exclusively mediated by the substance's action at the μ-opioid receptor. This characteristic distinguishes tramadol from many other substances (including morphine) of the opioid drug class, which generally do not possess tramadol's degree of subtype selectivity.

This is information sited from the internet page Wikipedia. I hope it helps people in making any uninformed decisions about Tramadol.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:42 am 
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I totally agree with what you are saying about rushing to suggest other pills.Hell takin a pill for this a pill for that is why we are in the spot we are in. The only way through it is through it.An issue I wanted to bring up is how everyone say's take your suboxone this way or that way,shouldn't we take it once a day an follow directions rather than do it our way?It is our way that got us here!!! Ratt hope all is well,keep up the good fight 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:01 am 
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Thanks everyone!,clean is clean.tynoal pm is all I've used.usualy just 1 at night.well it been since last wed. Morning since my last dose of .25 sat&sun were the hardest so far but not bad at all a little low energy but doable.not sure about today yet feel about the same as the last few days a little calmer will c how the energy goes today sleep good from 1am to 7am. But thank u everyone for ur support! Let u know how things go today.ratt396

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Ratt - so glad You are doing well. You are giving me positive expectations for my taper.
Joseph - I am a registered nurse. Husband is a PA who specializes in psychopahrmacology.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:11 am 
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Hello again, well today went pretty good achualy"sorry spelling"still low energy but not no energy. Around 2pm my head felt alittle clearer got a lot of work done still had to push myself to do it but hell I still did it.so now I'm hope to start getting a little better everyday "I hope"want some more energy back.knowing my luck I'll get hit with a ton of bricks tomorow.lol was thinking about not taking a tynonal pm tonight but I think I'll take just 1 feel just a little restless not much but useualy gets worse when I lie down.go figure aright til u lie down for sleep.but so far this has been very doable not fun at all but doable.seeing as I did a fast taper from 2 or 1.5mg per day to .25mg per day in about a month & a half maybe a little more.& the flu the last week of my subs.just some info my cut down was fast but stayed at .5mg per day the longest & .25 per day for about 7 days. Doseing twice per day 1 at 10am then 6or8pm.but so far a lot better than I expected.THATS GOOD! As long as I don't get hit by a freight train in the next few day.can u tell I'm still a little worried. Well thanks all I will kept u updated.ratt396

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:36 am 
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Hello, well it about 830am just got to work.glad I took the tylnonal pm got real restless last night. Got to sleep around 130 or 2 woke up about 730 so not bad.still feeling tired but I didn't take the tylonol pm til 1100pm so that prob it.other than that feel ok prob good once I wake up.hopefully hav some more energy today.dam its now been one day shy of a week of no subs should just kept getting better.brain needs to start making what ever its suposeto make.thanks all!ratt396

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