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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:12 pm 
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So yesterday I randomly came across this kratom stuff. It is a plant from Thailand that has similar effects like opiates. I researched it all day and a lot of people said it works great for withdrawals. many people used it with suboxone and said it worked great. I'm not trying to get my hopes up..if this stuff is so great I think I would have heard of it before. But I'm ordering some today and I'm pretty f`n excited. The only thing is...there's a million different websites and a million different products...like the kratom has all kinds of names and strains (not sure if that's what you call it) so I have no ides what website to get it from or what ” kind” to get. Any one have experience with this stuff..and where should I get it and what kind?? I defiantly think its worth a try.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Hey clynn,

Using Kratom to get off Suboxone is basically using an opiate to get off an opiate. Kratom has been shown to activate the mu opiate receptor, that's why it helps with wd. I've also heard that wd from Kratom can be quite nasty.

We've had a couple of people on the forum who have used Kratom, but I really don't remember their stories very well and I have no idea what kind of Kratom they used.

At the top of this page is a search box, type Kratom in there and check out the results.

If you're wanting to get off of Suboxone, you're much better off tapering, IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:26 am 
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HERE is a post of Dr. Junig's blog, about kratom......

http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/kratom- ... elections/



My brother's girlfriend actually got fairly "dependent" on this stuff....... the plants they grow now, are all
scientifically altered, or whatever you want to say to make it like 15 TIMES more potent,,,
which takes away ANY of the "its all natural"
answer, for me.......

I'd say do your OWN research,,,,,

for sure.....


there are JUST as many "horror stories" out there, about coming off this stuff, as suboxone,though.
got to be at least SOME truth to that,,,,,


good luck!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:22 am 
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amber4.14.11 wrote:
My brother's girlfriend actually got fairly "dependent" on this stuff....... the plants they grow now, are all
scientifically altered, or whatever you want to say to make it like 15 TIMES more potent,,,
which takes away ANY of the "its all natural"
answer, for me.......


Kinda like weed!!!

Most of the world's morphine source is "all natural". But it's still bloody addictive and can make your life crumble.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Yeah I'm seeing the bad things now..before I was only reading the good stories. I ordered a little and it should be here today...I'm still going to try it. I've been doing great on my suboxone for 2 years but lately somethings going on and I'm feeling like crap. Seems like I'm getting withdrawals for no reason. I'm not even sure if that's what it its but basically it seems like the suboxone isn't working anymore.so I don't know what else to do but get off of it. Anyways..I'm pretty sure I have to wait until I'm in pretty bad withdraws to start the kratom right? I'm only 24 hours without suboxone and obviously still feeling fine. Also I'm wondering if the kratom doesn't work out and I want to start suboxone again how long do I have to wait? Until I'm in withdrawals again? I don't have much faith that this is going to work but I feel like at least I can take a break from the suboxone and it might work better for me..if that makes sense? or I could start back on a lot lower dose.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:34 pm 
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In my opinion if your thinking of needing something to wd from the subs your not ready....don't push yourself...kratom is also addicctive. Why the rush to get off subs??? I been on them for about a year. I believe addiction is a sickness and most sicknesses do require medecation...don't put yourself thru unesscary pain..to me just trying to deal with addiction in itself is enougfh of a challenge. I've actually tried kratom and you havve to take large doses which tends to upset your stomache...just please don't push yourself thts how relaspe happens...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Also I'm very sorry I forgot...maybe talk to ur dr about upping your dose of subs...I would do that before starting anything that could potentially throw your recovery off coarse...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:09 am 
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subgurl76 wrote:
Also I'm very sorry I forgot...maybe talk to ur dr about upping your dose of subs...I would do that before starting anything that could potentially throw your recovery off coarse...




Good advice, in MY opinion :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:58 pm 
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I've taken Kratom before. A friend of mine swears by it, as long as you DO NOT ABUSE IT. The best way to take it is in a shot form, mix it quickly, and chase it with some orange juice. It made me feel great when I took it. I think it was about .6 grams (I could be wrong though). I didn't have any opiate WD symptoms that day. I felt fairly euphoric. I was going to take kratom instead of Subs, but my family intervened and Subs it was!

As for anything, you need to do A LOT of research on it, the correct dosage and strain is very important. Some are uppers, some are downers. DO NOT abuse it. People like to try and keep kratom on the DL so it doesn't become illegal. I actually have a lot of info on it. feel free to PM if youd like.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:37 pm 
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Kratom can be used a a great tool to help with sub withdrawal if you do not get dependant on it. Which is hard talking to an addict like myself. But I was completely ready to be off of suboxone and I used kratom once a day at night to sleep for days 1-8 of sub withdrawal only about 1-2 grams and it helped me tremendously. I stopped taking it the 9th night and still felt like I'm getting better day 10 although I did not sleep very well but it's manageable.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:02 am 
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All of the effects of different opioid substances can be explained and understood according to their chemistry. Kratom contains substances that act as agonists at mu opioid receptors--- the same action that oxycodone, morphine, and tramadol have. Some of these substances are 'stronger' or 'weaker'-- i.e. they bind with greater or lesser affinity, so for a given amount of the substance, they cause a certain amount of activation.

All will cause tolerance consistent with their activity. A higher-potency agonist causes higher tolerance, etc.

The addictiveness has to do with a couple other factors. Faster onset time is generally more addictive, for example. Buprenorphine has a completely different type of action, as a partial agonist. The ceiling effect of buprenorphine limits addictiveness (i.e. the strong desire to get more and more of the drug). Of course everyone knows that buprenorphine raises physical tolerance, like all opioids.

With respect, I can find no science behind the idea that one substance is 'harder to get off' than others. Likewise, I don't find much agreement on the things that are hardest to stop. So many people have said at this forum that 'heroin is easier to stop than subs'... but I've known many people who tapered off buprenorphine, and I've never met anyone who tapered off heroin--- or even stayed off after stopping cold turkey. I hear people say 'I stopped heroin many times and it was always easier'.... but every patient I ever talk to about heroin says they stopped it but couldn't make it past 4 or 5 days.

Again-- the science also doesn't support those claims. The receptor only sees activation or blockade. The receptor doesn't know if it is heroin, bupe, or kratom. Tolerance develops at the molecular level, and resolves at the molecular level-- and the nature of the molecule that caused that tolerance has nothing to do with how fast tolerance is corrected. What DOES matter, of course, is the time it takes for a drug to leave the body. Methadone sticks around for a couple weeks, as does buprenorphine and fentanyl. So in those cases the science predicts a longer withdrawal-- longer by a couple weeks-- and a milder withdrawal, since the blood level is decreasing more slowly.

I've known several people hooked on Kratom. In the cases I knew, it was a very expensive habit. I have no idea where or how people get it-- but the people I've known eventually got to very large tolerances and in one case, he said he spent about 2 grand each month to get it from Asia. He eventually had problems; something toxic in the mix caused seizures and multi-organ-system failure. He still has residual heart and kidney damage from whatever was in it (they found a chemical using mass spectometry but couldn't identify what it was).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:23 pm 
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Well I dont doubt your science, and I'm not making any miracle claims just simply telling what I did. Which was used kratom to make my first 8 nights of sub withdrawal bearable. It's been 2 nights I haven't taken it and my symptoms are still improving so I do not see any evidence of the small amounts I took to help me sleep prolonging the suboxone withdrawals. I slept maybe 3-4 hours last night if I was lucky but I feel almost normal during the days today being start of day 11. I do agree kratom is just like any other opiate the first time I took it I took a lot and got really high so there's no doubt the potential for continuing the cycle of abuse is there by using it. But I do believe it can help others the way it did for me.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:42 pm 
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I wasn't even thinking about the idea of using it during buprenorphine withdrawal as I was writing-- but I would think that it would reduce withdrawal symptoms. My concern with that is just re-entering the abuse cycle, as you mentioned. Sometimes people will suggest easing a buprenorphine taper using hydrocodone or oxycodone.... which never sounds like a good idea! But I'm glad that Kratom worked for you-- sincerely!


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:35 am 
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Yes I have also heard of sub Drs prescribing hydrocodone for suboxone withdrawal. And I would have rather used something that isn't an opiate to sleep but as I can't get any prescriptions or do and illegal drugs kratom was my only option. Just a small update last night was my 3rd night no kratom finally got a solid 4-5 hours rest starting day 12 no subs. 4 more days before I go back to work I was worried I would still be doing really bad but it seems like I'll be just fine.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:02 pm 
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For anyone interested. Starting day 14 today sleep still eludes me for the most part but day time is fine all of the acute w/d symptoms are gone. Haven't taken anymore kratom since night 8.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:42 pm 
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Awesome to be at day 14! Ur absolutely on ur way, 14 is an awesome journey so far, good job and good luck!

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 8:36 am 
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Thank you Jen I'm now back at work and days are going by a lot faster this will probably be my last post day 17 today I feel great at work it's easy to be sociable and do my job. Sleep is getting a small bit better each day still a bit of a struggle but I'm done with the hard part and don't plan on ever looking back. 5 years of suboxone 4 years before that on heroin, to be able to wake up in the morning and not use is the most rewarding feeling it's hard to describe. I psyched myself out for so long thinking I wouldn't be able to get off and manage doing my job but to anyone who wants to do the same it is possible and it's not nearly as bad as I thought after reading so many stories and getting scared . Good luck everyone.


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 10:09 am 
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I don't know about the direct substance itself, but the energy drinks containing kratom (Viva Zen, and some other) are illegal here in Alabama. I know this because a very good friend of mine is a gas station owner, and I sometimes help manage the store and deal with the neighboring store up the road who sells everything...so we constantly have people who come in and ask for the illegal energy drinks, which we don't sell.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 11:59 pm 
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Hi Jonathan! Nice to see you!

So Impala, where do you come down on the suboxone withdrawal debate now that you've done it yourself? If you hadn't had Kratom do you think the withdrawals would have been more horrible than heroin? Or do you think it still would have been manageable?

It's important to have more people with symptoms on the milder side to speak up about detoxing from sub. There are so many wild horror stories! What will your story be, Impala?

Amy

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:48 am 
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Hello Amy. On the topic of sub withdrawal vs short acting opiate I completely agree that the acute sub withdrawals were mild compared to the 5-6 times I detoxes from heroin. But with the heroin detox I was always sleeping and feeling a lot better by a week in so its hard to compare. Today I believe is day 23ish... "I've stopped focusing on the number and just focusing on learning to live sober again. The paws phase of suboxone w/d is almost 100% mental I have days where I feel great and work and do things. Other days I get kinda sluggish. But it's completely bareable. Sleep is about the only thing that still bothers me a bit I've gotten to where I get about 3-4 hours a night. So it's definately a longer struggle than short acting opiate detox for me. But on the other hand it's not the months of horrible pain that people describe. I was on sub for 5 years never had a dr or a rx and didn't have any help with my taper or detox from anyone other than doing my own research. I took my vacation for the year which was 16 days and jumped off at about .6 mg a day. And by about day 10-12 I would have been fine to go back to work and manage. I was scared to death to do this because I've worked so hard to get the job I have now but it was a lot easier than I thought it would be and wish I got the courage sooner. If I can do it anyone can.


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