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 Post subject: I keep failing!! Why!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:22 am 
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I'm brand new to the forum. I've read everything about trying to quit subs and I've tried 20 times over the last 7 months I've been on. Before that I had a small short opiate habit, got
Scared and started suboxone.

I ve been pretty steady on a .125 dose. At times .5 and at times .125. The last time I tried to jump was Sunday. 24 hours later Sunday night I thought I was tired and didn't expect not to sleep the first night but I didn't at all. I had that erky feeling in my body all night and couldn't fall asleep. I've never been that miserable. I caved the next day. I can't believe how hard this is! I attend aa meetings and all my friends are in recovery. I talk to my sponsor many times a day and my wife is very supportive. I know it's not going to be a picnic but zero sleep I can't handle. I have clonodine klonopin trazadone and seraqual. The seraqual makes me feel like a zombie so I try to avoid at all costs.

The only thing that worked for me one time with some success was tramadol over the christmas break. I know it's a mild opiate and can be nasty stuff to come off but I'm thinking anything would be better then sub. Everyone I talk to says it's all in my head and that there should be no acute wd. Billshit. I know a lot is in my head but I'm a nervous wreck when skipping a day or trying to jump.

Please if anyone could suggest anything please please I need help.

From reading all these posts I know there is a lot of knowledgeable loving people here. This is my last shot before my wife demands I go to treatment or detox.

Thanks

Gemma


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:50 am 
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Hello I keep failing! my name is Nicole I am not a Suboxone user. My husband has been on subs for 3 1/2 years 3 doctors and ruined family relationship. and almost ruined our marriage. Im gonna tell you a little about my experience with multiple friends, family and husband that take it . At some point im gonna be as brutally honest with you. I hope that it helps you and maybe show you a new perspective on suboxone. I have been an addict my whole life. in and out of prison. jails in-patient and out-patient. I never really cared for opiates I have had my spells on morphine. And the withdrawals from that I thought I would die. I didn't. I made myself get up and go. I used it intravenously. Today as I look back on it. It really wasn't that bad I made it worse in my head. When I got out of prison in 2010. My husband today we got back in touch and fell in loved again. I was in a year long Christian program. And he was addicted to pain pills. Eating up to 20 a day. And getting subs from his sister for the weekends that I came home to see him. When I completed the program I came home and he had been going to the doc already getting subs. He abused them as much as he abused the other drugs. Ran out one day and he freaked out. Cussed the doctors nurse. Got kicked out of the sub program. I believe that God can pull you thru if you put your faith in Him. I ran for my preacher. He came and talked to my husband prayed the urge out of him. For 5 days he had body aches the bathroom running. He made it thru. Was clean for 1 month. Well I have always been just hatred towards this new wonder drug. Well the summer of 2011. After my checks had been stolen and cashed and my bank account overdrafted every week 300.00. And me feeling as if


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:19 am 
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If I could not go on like this I called every doctor in a 100 mile radius of our home. Well my deal was you have 3 months that's what he said also. When I look at my husband I don't see the man he used to be. At one time he laughed, joked, sang all the time, was never hateful to me. Loved me!!!. in the past year I watched suboxone rob him of life. And whats worse is he was finally starting to see it. Suboxone has kept him from jobs. Hes lost jobs because that medicine has made him believe he could not get up he could not make the day. He was so snappy with everyone most ppl wouldn't even want to be around him. As soon as he took it. He was everywhere never has gotten a project done. Now Im just rambling so I will get to the best part of my little life story. In August I lost my insurance. We were already driving 160 miles round trip once a month to get him to the doc. I had been talking to him about getting off of them. and for once he wanted off of them as bad as I did. this last month we didn't have the money or a vehicle to go 160 miles. And that day he chose to quit. Now I will tell you I slept on the couch for 4 days we fought he cried and thought he was gonna die. the key word thought. the day he decided to get up out of that bed and kick that addiction. He did! Since then it has been Nov 27 2013 his missed appt. he had gotten a few from his brother in law. A letter came in the mail from his doctor discharging him from their program. that day it was over. He was done it has been 6 weeks with only 2 1/2 suboxones. This is his words and I also have a friend who came off of them and he has a friend. Suboxone is all a mind game all the withdrawals restless nites, insomnia, you have put it there. because you believe you will feel bad. your gonna be sick your never gonna sleep. wake up everyday telling yourself you will be okay. that's not bodyaches. im gonna sleep like a baby tonite. go out occupy your mind cause AS LONG AS YOU have a little bit of the medicine in your s


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:27 am 
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in your system its gonna keep telling you all that negative thoughts and you will never get off of them. I researched withdrawals Tylenol advil alternate them every 6 hours. take some Dayquil and nite medicine eat vitamin c vitamin d and a multi vitamin. that's what one site said and that's what I gave him. antidiarrheal medicine. have you ever just got on the computer and looked suboxone up? well my advice you need to you may never put another in your mouth. Im so glad that it makes me deathly ill. cant take them. I cant even stand the smell of them. I want to puke just thinking about it now. So let me know how things go for you. I pray you get off of them. and I pray that they will just quit making them.

Go with Faith

Nicole


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:25 pm 
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ouch...if your wishes come through...then many many innocent people such as myself..who DO NOT ABUSE our suboxone, will be sick and in high risk of relapse and DEATH


thx for the warm wishes.... :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:57 pm 
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Pardon me, but suboxone is not some evil mind game. It's a medication that had saved countless lives and delivered many people from the horrors of active addiction and painful withdrawals! also in one of your previous posts you mention getting the preacher to help "pray the urge away" well why didn't I think of that? if that worked I'm pretty sure addiction wouldn't be the deadly epidemic that it has become! countless addicts in the throws of hard core withdrawal have prayed and prayed for their pain and urges to go away and I assure you their withdrawal and cravings persisted, so I assure you many will beg to differ with your opinion. I only hope your opinion isn't the first thing someone thinking about trying suboxone to treat their serious opiate addiction reads, as it may scare them away from this life saving treatment. Or scare someone into tapering before ready, which is a recipe for relapse sometimes. this is a deadly disease we are talking about here! Relapses can be deadly! And I for one hope your wish about never making anymore suboxone never comes true! If it did, many addicts would suffer and die!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:26 am 
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Wow,
Read this thread and thought I would chime in. First of all congratulations on getting down to such small amounts daily. If i read your post right you are stable on taking anywhere from .125mg to .5mg. Well, I would start there first. Get stable at your low dose. Stable at .5mg for 4-5 days, then stable at .4mg 4 or 5 days, .3mg, .2mg., .15mg, .125mg .1mg, then skip one day, take .1mg, then skip 2 days, take .05mg, then stop. Something like that. Besides the comfort meds you are taking be sure to put good nutrition in your body, hydrate, and get a lot of exercise!!! Stay very busy, you can get a massive mind game going on and that can really mess with your recovery. Many success stories on this web-site, keep sharing, people are here to help you. Please stay positive, it really helps when you are stopping. Hang in there!!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:43 am 
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I've met so many addicts since my own opioid addiction started, over 20 years ago... been to thousands of meetings, worked as director of residential treatment programs, worked as psychiatrist in several prisons- and prescribed naltrexone or buprenorphine.

I've seen so much death... people who died after spending tens of thousands of dollars on residential treatment, people who died because a 'friend' told them they shouldn't take a medication to treat their addiction... and fools who died because they thought that they were 'special'-- that the 95% relapse rate for opioid dependence in ONE YEAR was for 'other' people-- that they had some special ability to do what so many people have died tryng to do-- stay sober without medication. Death from opioids is now THE leading cause of death in young adults; higher than car accidents; much higher than cancer. And from knowing so many addicts, I know (we ALL know) that most of those dead people thought they could quit without buprenorphine-- or didn't have access to buprenorphine.

I always wonder what drives the 'sick of sub' people to write long diatribes at this site. If someone is sick of sub, why not just MOVE ON?

To the original poster-- why do I keep failing-- because you are addicted to opioids. It is not the end of the world now, like it used to be-- because now there is something that can help keep you clean, for life. Almost everyone who takes buprenorphine tried to quit opioids many, many times before shelling out hundreds of dollars for a buprenorphine program-- but after a while on buprenorphine, often with no change of anything else in life, they think it will be different stopping buprenorphine? Why would anyone expect such a thing?

Buprenorphine is not magic; it is a medication that (when taken more seriously than the ('sick of' sub's spouse) removes cravings through a unique dose/response curve. Take it for a year or less and you might as well just plan on going back to using; 95% of people do exactly that in ONE year-- and life can last a lot longer than that! Out of the 800 people I've treated, the poor fools who insisted on stopping are mostly using-- the others are dead, or in prison. The people who have been on buprenorphine for several years or more are getting promotions, enjoying families, and feeling normal. After doing that for several years, some are ready to stop buprenorphine-- and at that point they usually find it to be fairly easy, since they are so far from the person they used to be that they can't even recognize that person.

But anyone who is still taking buprenorphine 'now and then', or injecting it, or taking little chips several times a day, just like they took their oxycodone or heroin-- who thinks they will just stop buprenorphine because 'now they want to stop everything'--- is very, very misguided- and in for a lot more misery. Wish I could be more 'positive'- but people should know the facts.

BTW-- there are NO long term risks from buprenorphine except reduced testosterone in men (as with all opioids). It is NOT harder to stop it, the longer you take it. It does NOT 'get in your bones' any more than any molecule that flows in the bloodstream. In the past 10 years, about 400 deaths were in people who had buprenorphine as one of the meds in the bloodstream. Over that time, there were over 350,000 overdose deaths WITHOUT buprenorphine involvement. Yep--- what a menace, that buprenorphine!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:03 am 
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Suboxdoc wrote:
"Out of the 800 people I've treated, the poor fools who insisted on stopping are mostly using-- the others are dead, or in prison"

I don't want to get into the controversy, and I respect Dr. J. I just want to say that I've been off Sub for coming up on a year and I'm neither using, in prison nor dead. My husband just said to me last night getting off Suboxone was the best thing that ever happened to me - I've reengaged with my life.

To Gemmasub - I went to detox to get off of Sub. I went cold turkey off of 16mg. That fucking hurt. But I do understand that you're going to have some discomfort even going off of .125. It's the nature of getting off opiates. No one just steps off of opiates without an ounce of suffering. The only way out is through. You have to just suck it up and do it if you really want off. When you decide to take your last dose flush the rest. You'll probably have a shitty week after that but then you will be fine. We're tougher than we think we are, trust me. Just make sure you stick with your AA and recovery.

I wish you the best,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:19 am 
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The rules on the front page of this wesite read as follows:

• This forum is for people who have made their treatment choice whether it be Suboxone, Methadone, or meetings and no medication. We recognize that some readers are not yet at the end of the choosing process, and we ask that they read with an open mind, and make their decisions without encouraging debate on the forum.

• Do not get into debating which is better-- such debates never change minds, and often introduce false information that clouds intelligent decision-making.

• Show respect for the decisions of others and avoid personal attacks.

Dr. J., if you can't follow your own rules, how would you expect anyone else to?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:58 am 
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I hope this post is taken in the POSITIVE manner in which it's intended. :D

I agree with you here Lilly. Also agree with Romeo. And I certainly don't consider myself a "poor fool" for wanting to stop my Suboxone either. My life, MY decision to make. Like you, I totally respect Dr. J, and I'm certainly happy this site was created for those that really do need it. It truly helps many and I mean that.

I personally believe the difference in why stay on bupe verses getting off depends on a persons time spent using the drug. I totally agree that short-term use should not happen, but how long is long enough is the question in my opinion? YOU HAVE TO BE 100% FULLY AND COMPLETELY READY TO GET OFF BUPE! And a support system should also be in place.

I simply got tired of using drugs. Period. I hated everything about it....chasing it, the money spent, the trouble associated with all of it. I was just sick and tired of using is the bottom line. So I figure I had a head start when I decided to begin using Suboxone to stop the withdrawals. The drug worked perfectly and I was very happy on it the entire time. But after 2 years I knew in my heart that was enough time for ME to be on bupe. I began to taper and finally after a year got off. That's going from 24mg down to .50mg. I'm now almost 5 months free of bupe and doing very, very well. Time spent on bupe therapy was over 3 years.

The point is, I was entirely READY to stop the bupe. I had ZERO doubt that it was my time to quit taking it. I was a new person ready to tackle the world and what it held in store for me. I was READY TO STOP! And that reason alone is entirely why I feel my detox was fairly easy for me....I really and truly wanted it more than anything in the world at the time! That's an ABSOLUTE MUST!!! Could I be yet another "statistic" and go back to using, be in prison or dead? Of course I could....anything is possible. But would I deserve the "I told you so's" that may come my way.....not at all because it was MY decision, and MY life, and still is.

I should be supported for making my own decisions with my own life. Just like I support every single person that WANTS to remain on bupe for life. If that's what you choose to do then so be it. I will ALWAYS wish you the best and be in your corner. Why wouldn't I want to do that? Just because I wanted off? Hardly.

suboxdoc wrote:
Take it for a year or less and you might as well just plan on going back to using; 95% of people do exactly that in ONE year-- and life can last a lot longer than that! Out of the 800 people I've treated, the poor fools who insisted on stopping are mostly using-- the others are dead, or in prison. The people who have been on buprenorphine for several years or more are getting promotions, enjoying families, and feeling normal. After doing that for several years, some are ready to stop buprenorphine-- and at that point they usually find it to be fairly easy, since they are so far from the person they used to be that they can't even recognize that person.

I think the above quote by Dr. J really says a lot. A year or less on bupe may spell trouble for many. You can't, or rather shouldn't stop taking bupe while still having thoughts of using, or believe that you may at some point....that simply won't work. But you should be supported anyway in my opinion.

And for those that do decide to stop bupe, it's also entirely possible they do very, very well for the rest of their lives. That's MY plan and my thoughts on the matter.

I support EVERYONE!

Gemma....I wish you the absolute best and sorry to disrupt your thread. Please continue posting. There will always be lots of help and support for you here.

Karen


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:33 pm 
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I support and believe exactly what Dr. J is saying. This is your site and you have the right to post what you want to! And people, please quit blaming suboxone for all of your probs!! You sound so naive.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:02 pm 
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first off,I wanna say that I hope the op it's successful in his quest to get off Suboxone and continue to live a happy drug free life. I have no tapering advice though, as I'm nowhere near needing any info about that subject.

also I don't feel Dr. J broke any of his own forums rules. he was speaking of his experiences with the over 800 patients that he's treated and their outcomes. the word fool doesn't always have a negative, name calling type connotation, and I don't think that's how he meant for it to come across. I think he meant it more in the sense of poor misguided people listening to others and not their doctor. a lot is lost in reading something thats typed out as opposed to spoken, where one can hear voice inflection and see body language. that's just what I think and maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I took it.

I sincerely hope that everyone who wants to stop taking Suboxone and be free of drugs can do so successfully. just make sure there's a good support system in place and know all the risks and statistics before making such a decision, and make sure it's what you want and not because you feel pressured by someone else to do it.

some of us have lost family and friends to addiction, and in Dr. junig's line of work, he sees more than his fair share of death and despair due to this disease, making his post seem to some as more aggressive than was his intention. just saying, let's cut the doc a little slack. :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Sick of Suboxone wrote:
If I could not go on like this I called every doctor in a 100 mile radius of our home. Well my deal was you have 3 months that's what he said also. When I look at my husband I don't see the man he used to be. At one time he laughed, joked, sang all the time, was never hateful to me. Loved me!!!. in the past year I watched suboxone rob him of life. And whats worse is he was finally starting to see it. Suboxone has kept him from jobs. Hes lost jobs because that medicine has made him believe he could not get up he could not make the day. He was so snappy with everyone most ppl wouldn't even want to be around him. As soon as he took it. He was everywhere never has gotten a project done. Now Im just rambling so I will get to the best part of my little life story. In August I lost my insurance. We were already driving 160 miles round trip once a month to get him to the doc. I had been talking to him about getting off of them. and for once he wanted off of them as bad as I did. this last month we didn't have the money or a vehicle to go 160 miles. And that day he chose to quit. Now I will tell you I slept on the couch for 4 days we fought he cried and thought he was gonna die. the key word thought. the day he decided to get up out of that bed and kick that addiction. He did! Since then it has been Nov 27 2013 his missed appt. he had gotten a few from his brother in law. A letter came in the mail from his doctor discharging him from their program. that day it was over. He was done it has been 6 weeks with only 2 1/2 suboxones. This is his words and I also have a friend who came off of them and he has a friend. Suboxone is all a mind game all the withdrawals restless nites, insomnia, you have put it there. because you believe you will feel bad. your gonna be sick your never gonna sleep. wake up everyday telling yourself you will be okay. that's not bodyaches. im gonna sleep like a baby tonite. go out occupy your mind cause AS LONG AS YOU have a little bit of the medicine in your s

When I read posts like this I almost cry tears of joy for not being married. You said yourself you arent an opiate or sub user and then proceed to tell us all that we should just man up and quit because its all in our heads? I wish I could feed your bupe for years and rip it away from you and then when your in agony tell you "buck up its in your head wimp". People like you disgust me, the anger it stirs up in me when I read ignorance like the garbage in your post. I hope for your husbands sake the fog eventually clears and he high tails it the F outta there and starts over fresh on his own, he will be a much happier person Id bet. Probably just mad that money gets spent on sub treatment and not on coach handbags and other stupid shit, hopefully you do the forum a favor and GTFO but you probably won't.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:32 pm 
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Hello all

I thank all of you for reading my post. Even though I'm not sure if all the replys made perfect sense, I keep an open mind to what anyone has to say. Let me just correct my previous post by saying .25 is my norm, I mistyped when I said .125.

In theory I understand that I could taper down, say every two weeks or so. I could also stay on this dose and continue my abstinence from those full agonist opiates.

I will be brutally honest:

When I taper my desease (or whatever you want to call it) starts telling me to take a second dose at night he second I start feeling badly. One thing for sure is I'm an addict And if it makes me feel different or stops me from feeling and I'll take it with little to no control. Although suddle, sub does relax me and calms my nerves. My wife of sick of holding them for me because I just wake her up at 4am when I'm hurting and can't sleep. Maybe I just want to want to stop. God help me please !

Prob with staying on it:

First my test levels are 150(which is very low and abnormal). I also don't have energy and enthusiasm nor the normal enjoyment out of my day I remember I used to have. I relapsed after 12 years in aa so I have idea of how great life can be. I truly believe it would be best for me to come off. I even thought of a detox but they won't take me on .25 mg. anyone have thoughts on the tramadol for 5 days @ 50-100mgs?

Genma


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:56 pm 
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Couldn't have said it better buprecision!!

I'm no counselor but maby you fell in love with the addict version of your husband. And now that he has sobered up to being who he really is, you don't like it. I won't elaborate but you get my point.

Just food for thought.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:20 am 
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I know we all feel passionately about our personal positions regarding Suboxone, whether staying on or tapering off, and things can get heated, but let's not forget our OP here. while I didn't have any advice for him, because I've no experience with tapering and dint plan on it, maybe some other members here do have some wisdom for gemma?

Sick of Suboxone is clearly having some bad issueswith Suboxone and her husband, but we clearly aren't going to change her mind, so it would be a better use of our time to try to help the original poster. IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:21 am 
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Gemmasub wrote:
I truly believe it would be best for me to come off. I even thought of a detox but they won't take me on .25 mg. anyone have thoughts on the tramadol for 5 days @ 50-100mgs?
If it were me I would definitely NOT use any of the Tramadol for any part of a detox. It can be one very nasty drug. It does and can be useful for some people, but caution should always be used for those choosing to take this drug.

I have lots of experience with it. It's not considered a narcotic in many states, but it is narcotic-like, and can be very addictive with abuse potential. And Tramadol can produce seizures if taken in large doses, and seizures can also happen if this drug isn't tapered very slowly. I had all sorts of problems with it because I was abusing it, which is very easy to do.

So you would be detoxing from the sub, and then have to do the same with the Tramadol. Not very useful in my opinion, and not something I personally would ever recommend. But of course it's all up to you what to decide.

Karen

P.S. Well said Lizzie!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:40 am 
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Genma,

Could it be the low T that might be causing a lot of your problems? What if you were to get treated for that and then see how you feel? I think it makes sense to try it.

I notice that you say when you taper, your disease of addiction makes you want to take a second dose at night. So I have to ask. What makes you think that your disease isn't going to rear its ugly head when you are totally off? What plans do you have to stay in recovery once you're off sub? The statistics that Dr. J cites are daunting, and If you don't have a plan to work hard at it, you may not be able to stay off your drug of choice.

I would seriously consider getting treated for low T before you do any more tapering. It could be that the crappy feeling you've been experiencing could be more closely tied to the low T than the withdrawal.

Amy

P.S. I think it's totally legitimate for Dr. J. to share his experience as an observer of many sub users and their outcomes. He does say, after all, that people can successfully taper off sub after they've been on it a number of years and their recovery is not so fragile.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:37 am 
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Amy,

Two great thoughts in your reply. The low T and why I wouldnt fall victim to my doc once off sub.

My sub doc said to come into his office and he would start me on testostorone injections weekly, but when I asked he said suboxone has nothing to do with the low T. So my regular MD sent me to a urologist (which I thought was the wrong docter, I was thinking an Endocronologist) Anyway I saw him and he gave me a script for a more detailed hormone test and stuck his finger in my ass since I was there. lol Prostate is good! He said if it comes back low he would send me to the Endocronologist for the actual therapy. Ive been balking on the second blood work but I need to get moving so Im setting up the app now online. Maybe the wd wouldnt be so bad if my T count was higher! Maybe theres hope.

As far as the drug of choice thing: I would have to use extreme caution and continue my meetings and call as many people as possible. Pray everyday and hope for the best. If I get squarlly I"ll committ to just take the suboxone again. Just a thought anyway.

Thanks guys this has been helpful, I just hate "having" to take a drug and I went from 12 years clean 23-35 years old to a few months of roxy and Dilaidid which I was using to bring me down from Dexedrine I was taking to help study for the CPA exams while working full time. Thats the story in a nut shell.


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Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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