It is currently Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:31 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:36 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:26 am
Posts: 4
That alone already makes me an extreme minority on this board. I've never have any substance abuse problems whatsoever. So why am I posting on this board? I'm very interested in the idea of getting Subutex as treatment for my disabling social phobia and depression.

I've seen enough posts to know you'll all tell me there are better options, so allow me to tell you more about myself and what hasn't worked.

First, I want to clearly establish that I'm not suggesting an opioid for run-of-the-mill anxiety here. I graduated college in 1995 and have done nothing since due to disabling social phobia. Yes, that's 20 years without friends, without employment, without further education, and without anything to bring me meaningful happiness. Most days I don't even leave the house. I still live in the same home I grew up in, living with my mother who is now 84. I'll soon be 42. I've never been married, nor had any long-term relationships due to my social phobia. I'm a loner and I'm not at all happy about it.

Depression: having a life entirely destroyed by anxiety has led me to the deepest depths of depression imaginable (for a living person). Others likely would have terminated their hell long ago, though I hang on despite being a firearms enthusiast (aka "gun nut") who could readily put a .45 caliber bullet in my brain at any moment if I wanted. Oddly, I'd still like to live before I die, and I think Subutex may be my best bet.

I've tried 6 out of the 7 SSRIs on the market. All useless. I've tried SNRIs, TCAs, Wellbutrin, Serzone and countless others drugs to no avail. For the last year I've been on the MAOI Parnate, which is only marginally effective even at 120mg (12 pills a day) -- double the max recommended dose. I've tried Parnate at up to 200mg (20 pills a day) though went back down to 12 as there seems no additional benefit at even higher levels. That's supplemented with 400mg of Provigil (also double the max recommended dose) & 6mg of Xanax per day. I've tried Lyrica at the max dose. Gabapentin too. I've tried amphetamines -- Adderall, Vyvanse, and dextroamphetamine. Don't think I forgot about benzos. I've tried Xanax, Valium, Klonopin, and Ativan. You'd be hard pressed to find many people with a larger cumulative intake of benzos than me. From 2003-2012 my prescribed Xanax dose was 10 mg/day, which is the max recommended dose for panic disorder (4mg is the max recommended for anxiety). (Yes, ten mg lest you think I forgot a decimal point.) I was still fully disabled even at that rarely seen Xanax dosage level.

Have I made it sufficiently clear that I have VERY seriously tried a whole hell of a lot -- in massive dosages -- and I'm still disabled by social phobia, generalized anxiety, OCD, and the resultant depression that comes from a trio of anxiety disorders? Now does my idea of trying Subutex still sound wild & crazy, or the well-reasoned idea of an intelligent man who has very few options remaining?

I fully recognize the risks of Subutex. I could become an opioid addict, in which case I'd be like everyone else on this board. Given my situation and relative lack of other options, I feel that's a risk worth taking. I realize that in a worst case scenario, Subutex could kill me, though I don't imagine that's likely given that I only drink in moderation (2-3 glasses of wine a day). That's hardly the sort of opioid/alcohol mix likely to result in death, now is it? I don't binge drink, as I'm not a fan of headaches & vomiting (I'll leave that for foolish college kids). Of course, I'd have no reason to drink if my anxiety were under control, such as by Subutex. I'm not a fan of the taste of alcohol, nor a fan of the calories (I really need to lose weight).

Chronic opioid use commonly lowers testosterone. I won't need to worry about that as I'm already on AndroGel (so my own natural production of T is already presumably zero, so it can't go any lower). I'm well aware that opioids cause constipation. I'm already on Provigil, which proves to be a VERY potent laxative @ 400mg, thus pairing nicely with a constipating med like Subutex. I'm quite familiar with the use of stool softeners like docusate or Miralax and I'd be happy to eat plenty of bran flakes & fiber bars.

I'd be pleased to answer any questions you may have to further clarify my situation. I probably should point out this social phobia has been going on for a lifetime, so I don't expect it to spontaneously end. I think it reasonable to expect it to end upon death and not a moment before.

Perhaps I should tell you more about my depression. The first Sunday in February 2011 I spent the entire day holding a .357 Magnum revolver trying to get up the courage to blow my brains out. I did everything short of cocking the hammer. I stared down that barrel and I saw the bullet that could end my life. Fear is what kept me alive that day. I'm an atheist and I had no fear of hell. I had no fear of nonexistence. I feared the pain of slowly bleeding out if I flinched & missed a direct hit to my brain. I'm probably the only suicidal person who every wore ear plugs + heavy-duty muffs such that my ear drums would not be agonizingly blown out by the incredible blast of a Magnum round going off indoors.

Again, I don't think Subutex is a suitable treatment for 99% of anxiety/depression patients. I think it's an extreme solution suitable only for extreme cases. And I feel I am one of those cases. I have demonstrated myself to be highly responsible for 42 years. I graduated college (which was hard as hell given my condition). I responsibly manage inherited assets of $1.8M for myself, in addition to my elderly mother's assets, paying all her bills and making all financial decisions for mom. (My background is in finance.)

If I wanted to buy a machine gun, I legally could -- passing the ATF background check with flying colors due to my spotless criminal record. Should getting a much-needed med actually be harder than obtaining a military-grade weapon? If so, we should arm our troops with bottles of Subutex as they charge into battle since it's evidently more dangerous than an M-16 rifle.

After all that, do you think Subutex is a reasonable treatment option for my most extreme case of social phobia and depression?

Thank you,
Karl

P.S. I noticed a forum called Suboxone & Pregnancy: as you likely guessed from the name, I'm a man, thus we'll never have to worry about it impacting an unborn child either. Even if it could damage sperm, I'm almost certainly sterile due to testosterone replacement therapy anyhow & it's not like guys with my level of social phobia are likely to be having a lot of sex anyhow nor that age-appropriate women are very fertile.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:19 pm 
Offline
3 Months or More
3 Months or More

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:21 pm
Posts: 95
Welcome to the boards.

I don't know how to put this any other way so here goes.

I can tell you from personal experience that Suboxone / Subutex both work wonders for anxiety issues. However, if and when you ever decide to get off Suboxone you will learn what opiate dependence is. I haven't actually heard of doctors using Subutex as a treatment for anxiety, and IMHO I'd say this is a horrible off label treatment idea from any doctor because it creates dependence to bupe.

I've never been in your shoes, and I want to understand where your'e coming from however you should maybe weigh out other options for your anxiety.

evolved.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:11 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 1342
Location: West Tennessee
Hi Karl,

Well you are right about one thing for sure. This is definitely a touchy subject around here, and in the medical community. You are likely to get a lot of resistance from people in both places.

We have had several members post about this in the last couple of years and I have to say that in the beginning I was opposed to the idea of bupe for depression. After much thought, I have changed my mind, but I am still very cautious about recommending it. Mostly, I would say that I am a supporter of the product being available to those who have debilitating depression, but cautiously so.

Here's the main things that stood out to me in your situation. First, I am a bit concerned as to why you feel the need to have others validate your decision. Only you know if this is truly necessary for you to function, and what we say here really shouldn't matter if it is truly a life or death situation. If there are other options available that you haven't tried, I would definitely try them first. Adding an opiate dependency onto your already debilitating issues doesn't sound like much fun, and it could just be the straw that broke the camels back. Don't discount how agonizing WD can be, especially once an addiction has formed.

My main fear is that you try it, and you don't find the relief you are looking for. Worst case scenario would be that you try it and don't get good results, but stick with it long enough for a dependence to form. I'm sure you have considered this, but I can't in good conscious not bring it up again. I would recommend that you look through all of the posts in the section "buprenorphine and mood" so that you have an accurate idea of what to expect. We have seen some good results from members who suffer with similar issues, but the transition can be difficult.

One of the biggest challenges you may face will be finding a doctor who is willing to prescribe it for you in this manner. Have you got a good doctor lined up who is familiar with treating patients with bupe for depression? One of the biggest things to look for is that they understand the dosage that benefits depression the most. It seems to be most effective in doses of 2mg or less. Another issue you may not have considered is that you will probably not be able to use benzo's while taking suboxone. Just be aware of that fact, and make sure you are comfortable with it.

All of that being said, I do believe that you should have a right to try the medication. Do your research, and be sure you really understand the way an opiate dependency will effect you for the rest of your life. Read some of the threads here about addiction. Just because you aren't an addict doesn't mean you will be immune to the effects of continued opiate use. It will create a dependency at the very least, and that might be something you will have to live with for the rest of your life. If you have weighed the options and still feel that it is worth the risks, then I wish you good luck. I would also greatly appreciate it if you would come back and keep us updated on your progress. I'm sure we could be of help to you when you get started on the meds. The beginning of bupe treatment can be very difficult, especially for those with low opiate tolerance.

Q

_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:32 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Posts: 2310
Location: Tennessee
Hey Karl,

Wow Q, u said it all and touched on everything I was thinking. I'm sure that debilitating depression is horrible and anything that would help would be a miracle. And I would think the exact same way if I were in ur situation. That being said, becoming addicted is going to double the misery ur feeling right now when u stop taking sub. Withdrawal comes with it's very own depression and anxiety. That's why addicts can't just stop when we have had enough. I've never known depression like I experienced once I tried to stop opiates for the first time and every time after. And a lot of doctors, like Q said, won't let u continue the benzos. My Dr doesn't let me take anything at all pretty much. So u should def be aware of the consequences of becoming addicted, and it will happen if u take it long enough.....it just will. So being on the addict side of this question, I wouldn't wish addiction on my worst enemy. There's been many of addicts that also become suicidal. Its very much misery. So I'm not really sure if I'd recommend taking this for depression. I'm on the fence. It could very well make an already bad situation worse. I guess only u can make this choice. But I also feel like ur going in with blinders on because until u become addicted, u won't truly know how bad it really is. Trust me.....there's no words that can explain how miserable it is. So I know u will try anything to keep from feeling like this for the rest of ur life, but it could backfire in a way u could never had imagined. So I don't know what I would advise u to do. I hope u let us know how this goes. And I hope u find the answer ur looking for. In the end, we all just wanna be happy. And happiness and peace is the ultimate goal.

_________________
Jennifer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:50 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:01 pm
Posts: 80
I agree with the previous posts, that being said, I believe in saving lives!!! Other people's input and opinions do matter to some people, but like a previous post said, you don't need us to validate your decision. I unknowingly became an opiate addict. I played basketball almost daily for years in my 20's, and I was rear ended on the highway one day coming home from work. I suffered a concussion, sprained back, and neck. I went to my primary family doctor, I had only had hydrocodone a couple of times from the dentist in the past when I was in high school. I probably didn't take it for very long to succumb to being an addict at that time, but when my family doctor prescribed norcos and somas, I was off to the races in less than 6 months. The first couple months I took as prescribed, than I gained a tolerance to the norcos, and started taking more. My story is so much like many others, I went to pill mills, multiple doctors, and bought them off the streets, as my physical dependence increased, my life went down the tubes. I was working 2 jobs just to maintain my habit, and I suffered from deep depression as well. Wellbutrin worked for awhile, then after trying many other pills for depression, I was put on Prozac, which worked wonders for me.

A friend of mine got me to a suboxone doctor for my opiate dependence, and I have been on subs for almost 16 months. I have not relapsed once while taking my suboxone. It has worked wonders for me, and I went off my Prozac about 10 months ago, because the suboxone worked in that area as well for me. Everyone reacts differently to medication, so do your research, ask questions, like you are doing, and then make a decision that is good for you, and your doctor approves of. I have been there, wanting to end my life, I am your age, 42, so I understand how you feel, and I can say this...no one should have to live like that!!! I made a decision to do what works for me to live my life, I was separated 6 years ago, divorced 2 years ago, and last week my ex-wife and I reconciled finally after many attempts. It saddens me to hear your story, and I can relate, which is why I implore you to get help ASAP, but be well-informed as to what attachments come with this medication.

After you read many posts on here, many people will explain how suboxone has saved their life, and that they are now, well-adjusted contributing members of society. Many stated off as opiate addicts, and I believe most people (in my experience and conversations with others), have some form of depression when they are in "active addiction". From what you explained, you've tried many, many other options for your depression. I've seen plenty of stories from others, the suboxone helped immensely with their depression, be it mild, or debilitating like it sounds you have. As another compassionate human being, I want everyone to have a chance in this life to succeed, and enjoy what life has to offer (it's not roses all the time, but we should all at least have the chance to experience happiness).

Research, ask questions, understand the possible side effects, and understand that you will probably become physically dependent on this medication, once you start using it for an extended period of time. If suboxone helps you to not put a gun in your mouth, than in my opinion, I would be an idiot to not recommend you try it out (you've already tried multiple options). I want you to live, and I don't even know you, but I came out of HELL, and my life is looking up, thanks to my medication, and therapy (group, and individual, every week). The meds will help of course, but you have to work on you, which unfortunately many people don't do.

Sorry my post is so long, but suicide is very serious, and I recognize a cry for help (I've unfortunately lost a few friends over the years). You don't have to live in hell, I am praying for you, and hopefully others on this forum will chime in!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:02 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:13 pm
Posts: 100
First I want to say I'm sorry that you are living like this. I also suffer from extreme anxiety and depression that has ruined my quality of life tremendously. I don't want to say not to try it because everyone is different and I believe you have the right to try it under a doctors supervision. I can only tell you my experience... I initially became addicted to pills because it was the one thing that allowed me to live anxiety free, at least for the first few months. As you know the body develops a tolerance and one finds themselves years later just popping them to function and even more depressed. So long story short after trying multiple times to wean and practically wanting to die I was started on Subutex. When I first took the dose at 3 mg (I started lower than dr wanted) I felt great mentally. Now 7 months later I weaned down to a bit under 2mg and I am again extremely depressed and anxious and to top it off I have zero energy. I am more anxious then I was prior. I don't know if it's the decreased dose it if, like on the full opiates, my body built up s tolerance. Now I sometimes wish I never started because I cannot wean off without becoming manic. I also take Paxil and Klonopin at night. Now again this is just my experience. I think some people with a low tolerance to opiates may benefit from a low dose of Subutex for depression but my advice is if you don't feel it is working after a month get off. Hope this helps and best wishes.

CS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:46 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Posts: 2310
Location: Tennessee
In my above post, I wasn't against this medication saving lives for it has saved mine for the last 3 yrs! But I was a raging drug addict so of course I'd recommend this medication to any human who wants a better life who's addicted to opiates. When u have someone who is NOT addicted, that's where it becomes tricky. And I'm still NOT saying to not try this to help depression, I'm only saying that putting addiction onto someone who's already severely depressed is something different. I will totally support ur choice to take this for ur depression if that's what u choose. I just wanted to strongly advise someone who doesn't know what addiction feels like to know it can also make u suicidal and miserable. I wanna be clear here, iI support anyone who wants a better life. What kind of addict would I be if I didn't try to warn someone before it can happen?? We aren't talking about someone who is on drugs and wanting a better life from addiction, of course subs will help. We're advising someone what to do who is lookin for help with depression. Of course subs helped with our depression because we were addicts when we started taking it....wouldn't u say addiction is somewhat the reason u were depressed? My life completely changed since I've been on subs. I have my children, money, a new home, new car & on and on. I can't say enough wonderful things about it. But I was an addict.

Again Karl, I support this medicine for whatever symptoms it treats. And it could very well give u a better life and I hope it does 100%. I just wanted to warn u of the poss outcome of addiction, physical dependence, and all that could also come along. I wouldn't ever want to be taken the wrong way and someone think I'd not advise this medicine for whatever miracle it can help someone else like me. But Karl isn't an addict like me, so its different and I wanted him to only be aware. I'll support whatever choice he makes.

_________________
Jennifer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:19 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 1342
Location: West Tennessee
JennJenn,

Your concerns are well placed! Most of us here are already addicts, and we know full well the hell that can cause in our lives. Taking on a dependence to opiates willingly is something that should only be done with much thought and true understanding of what you are getting into.

I think Jenn has a pretty balanced perspective on this.

Q

_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:36 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:01 pm
Posts: 80
jennjenn and others, please don't think that I thought any of your posts were against saving lives. I just lost a few friends in their 30's to suicide, so that subject kind of pushes my buttons, if you know what I mean. I think the overwhelming majority of people posting comments on this forum especially are only interested in poisitve ideas and comments intended to uplift others, and share their experience.

Karl- everyone is hitting the nail on the head, when they are knowingly explaining that you can, and probably will be physically dependent on this medication if you take it for an extended period of time. For me, I noticed the changes almost immediately in my mood, and my cravings for a 15 year opiate addict were practically completely gone within the first couple week, if not sooner. Everyone is giving you good information, and all we can do is give you are experience with this medication. It has saved, and continues to save lives daily. Active addiction for most people (IMO) means stealing, lying, and manipulating all those you come in contact with to get what you need/want. My behavior of active addiction disappeared within a very short time frame, and I have my medication to thank for that. I did what I encourage everyone to do as well, and attend group therapy every week, and I see a counselor on a one-on-one basis every week as well. I had to work on my issues that caused me to use, and after a time of consistently acting, and treating people differently, I gained back the trust from my family members and friends.

Like I said, I think you are being wise asking for input from people, and I would continue to do so, and of course consult your doctor for any available options. I think the basic concern from what I've read, is that others are letting you know that you will probably become physically dependent on this medication. I have never lied, stole, or cheated anyone out of money to get my suboxone medication, which is a complete 180 from what I used to do to get my drugs. I am only concerned with your well being, and want you to get the proper treatment, and care that you deserve (don't think you don't deserve a good life). The people posting on this site generally have a lot of good input, and I think they try to steer everyone in the right direction. I'd say we all want to see you improve your quality of life, and start enjoying the life out there that's waiting for you.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:19 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:03 am
Posts: 205
Yo, Karl!
Are you still out there? Would love to see how you're doing!

-fishy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:07 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:26 am
Posts: 4
tfisher wrote:
Yo, Karl!
Are you still out there? Would love to see how you're doing!

-fishy


Yeah, I'm still out here. Haven't done anything yet.

One of the posts above suggest I consider alternatives. They fail to say what those alternatives would be, since they probably can't actually come up with any. I can come up with a couple possible alternatives for anxiety: meprobamate & phenobarbital. Meprobamate was the #1 tranquilizer of the 1950s (and the main metabolite of Soma). Phenobarbital has been in use for the last century. Both are FDA approved for the treatment of anxiety, though the medical community lives in a fantasy land where no tranquilizers existed prior to the 1960 introduction of benzos. Benzos, of course, are the be all end all of anxiety medications and they're universally effective. There simply exits nobody who doesn't respond to them -- until they meet me, who got next to nothing out of 10mg/day of Xanax. That act like Xanax is a nuclear weapon when it's more like a water pistol that's out of water. Doctors are stuck in a box, entirely unable to think outside the box, and outliers like me live way outside their little box. In their box SSRIs are the magic cure for everything. If that don't work then benzos surely will. If that doesn't work, well, by that time they're getting really stumped.

I do plan on genetic testing to see how I metabolize drugs, which I'm confident will show that I'm an ultra-fast metabolizer of benzos. Up till now it's only been theorized that this is the case. Now what the hell are they going to do with that information? Is there a doctor willing to give me even larger doses of benzos, seeing how 10mg of Xanax failed to do the job? That would be an alternative to Subutex. I don't think an even larger benzo dose is unreasonable. Keep in mind that Klonopin is FDA approved up to 20mg for the treatment of seizures. They could give me 20mg of Klonpin per day + an additional 10mg of Xanax per day and no pharmacy computer could even flag either script as "too high" as both are with in FDA recommended limits. Now is there a doctor who's not a damn sissy boy who's prescribe such? Yes, benzos come with their own issues of dependency, as I'm sure you know. Benzo withdrawal (just like alcohol withdrawal) can be fatal. Withdrawal from Subutex is NEVER fatal (unless you're so miserable you kill yourself).

Other alternatives: I could simply become a raging alcoholic as alcohol actually does reduce my anxiety, unlike crappy little doses of benzos. Or I could take the 1911 I keep loaded for home defense and put a .45 caliber bullet in my brain. I'm told Subutex is dangerous. Is the irony of this lost on you? My hobby is shooting, so I deal with deadly weapons all the time. I have a carry permit and I've worn a Glock. I keep two guns loaded & handy for home defense. Yet I'm told I can't handle the contents of a pill bottle. Is that not utterly ridiculous? What's in this bottle? Cyanide? Even cyanide can't top the lethality of the guns I handle regularly.

Consider a worst case scenario: I become hopelessly addicted to Subutex and it destroys my life in every way possible leading me to kill myself. This doesn't end any differently than I avoid the "dangers" of Subutex and kill myself because I can't stand my life. Different stories, same ending.

If any of you can think of any other alternatives, I'm very much open to suggestion. Some posts above have wondered why I need your reassurance or approval. I'm an independent thinker who needs the approval of nobody. I'm simply looking for suggestions & ideas, which is quite different than being some mindless idiot who requires others to tell him what to do.

Thank you,
Karl


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:51 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 1342
Location: West Tennessee
Hey Karl,

I think it was me who recommended trying other alternatives above. I get your point 100%. You are in an impossible situation and I see that you have pretty much tried every avenue available to you. No, of course I don't have any other suggestions, because depression isn't an issue I have dealt with.

I understand why you are angry, I would be too if I was in your situation.

I hope you understand that I absolutely support your decision to go on subutex if you feel it is necessary, and I said as much before. I probably was a little overly cautious with that recommendation, but you have to understand that you won't be the only person who reads this response. There will be other people who stumble upon that post that may not have been in a situation as severe as yours. And, I would feel awful if I didn't at least give my opinion that this should only be done when all other avenues have been explored.

Speaking specifically about your situation, I would be on subutex as soon as possible if I were you. It won't be the end of the world if you become dependent on opiates. In fact, it's probably better than a serious benzo addiction. I hope that you find some much needed relief with this treatment, if you can find someone willing to prescribe for you. Have you done any research to find a doctor who does this yet?

Please understand that our forum isn't very familiar with the issue of suboxone for depression. We are mostly coming from a perspective of knowing how awful the addiction can be, and you may have to be a little patient and educate us about your condition. Nobody here wants to see you end your life, and I am positive that most of us would agree you should have the option of trying subutex in your case.

Stick around and let us help you as we can, and in turn you can pave the way for people like you who come here in the future.

Don't give up hope.

Q

_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:03 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:40 pm
Posts: 421
One of the posts above suggest I consider alternatives. They fail to say what those alternatives would be, since they probably can't actually come up with any.

Above was not my post but:
http://www.alpha-stim.com/ being used by the Army and VA for TBI and PTSD related symptoms.
http://neurostar.com/ transcranial magnetic stimulation
ECT has been used in intractable conditions that you describe, particularly when there is high suicide risk.
There is a huge shortage of physicians willing to prescribe Suboxone for addiction, let alone finding someone willing to go off label for anything besides pain.
regards


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:10 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:03 am
Posts: 205
Karl,
I totally agree with q...I think f it's a matter of considering suicide as a viable option, by all means try anything else! I think subutex may actually help you, it would at least be worth a try. Just thought I'd add my two cents, and I'm wishing you the best in feeling better.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:04 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:26 am
Posts: 4
Ketamine infusions would be an option I forgot to mention.

Downside: they're not covered by my insurance, nor any other insurance company in the nation. This lack of coverage is widely complained about on a ketamine advocacy forum. There are also VERY few clinics that do ketamine (most states don't have one at all). Though unlike Subutex, you don't have to wonder if the doc will give it to you as that's all they do. And they do it for a very high price. You contact them and they can tell you by phone if you qualify (and I bet basically 100% do).

As for ECT, that doesn't address anxiety, and social anxiety would be my main problem. ECT only helps with depression and it comes with its own set of problems, such as memory loss.

Yes, transcranial magnetic stimulation is another option, one that's less offensive than ECT.

I don't view depression as some separate entity. I view it as a symptom of my social phobia. As in my social phobia has destroyed my life and I'm depressed about it. Get rid of what's depressing me, and the depression should get better. At least that's my belief.

There is nearby clinic with four Suboxone doctors. Since they can only treat 100 addicted patients each, they obviously have to treat other stuff too -- like anxiety & depression. I think that would be my best bet, since they're comfortable with the drug & surely know of the research on it to support it's use for stuff other than just addiction management.

I do differ from you guys in that I don't have an addictive personality. I've never been tempted by any drug, nor found any drug euphoric (except for alcohol -- which I didn't even drink till I was over the age of 30). Food is another story. Peanut M&Ms should be the controlled substance when I'm around. Food has always been my addiction.

BTW, I do know about the shortage of doctors available to treat addiction. I read a tale of how Vermont heroin addicts were buying Suboxone on the street or driving 4 hours to another state to see a doctor. That's the wonderful DEA standing between addicts who want to get better and their treatment. I've long hated the DEA and that just provided more reason to support my view. I think addicts should be helped not hindered in their efforts to come clean.

Karl


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:10 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:03 am
Posts: 205
Hi Karl,
I just wanted to add that I think you are very intellectual and articulate :) just felt the need to say so! Also, I drive for hours each way for my sub doc appointments too, and that doctor also treats me for whatever other medication needs I have. I fully agree, the DEA should be helping us out, not hindering our recovery. Pass the M&ms!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:06 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4134
No one thinks you're a mindless idiot. I certainly don't. It's obvious that you are intelligent and articulate and near the end of your rope.

I definitely think that subutex should be prescribed for depression off label. You are one of a small minority of people whose depression may only be alleviated by opiate medication. Subutex is made to resist tolerance, and that makes it the best opiate medication out there for anti-depressive purposes. I'm not saying anything you don't already know.

I encourage you to find something to stay connected to, whether it's some sort of support meeting or even just keeping up a dialog with us. We have the tendency here to care about others because we have learned to appreciate support in our own lives.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:23 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:26 am
Posts: 4
qhorsegal2 wrote:
One of the biggest things to look for is that they understand the dosage that benefits depression the most. It seems to be most effective in doses of 2mg or less. Another issue you may not have considered is that you will probably not be able to use benzo's while taking suboxone. Just be aware of that fact, and make sure you are comfortable with it.


Why can't Subutex and benzos be mixed? Are you saying it's dangerous, which it isn't, or because MDs have their head up their a** and don't want to mix them due to some exaggerated fears about how that will surely kill a patient? I don't see how a modest dose of 2mg is going to produce deadly respiratory depression no matter how much benzos one consumes.

I can imagine a fear of giving benzos to an addict who has a long history of abusing everything they get their hands on.

I know all about exaggerated fears. Keep in mind that I'm on Parnate, an MAOI, which plenty of doctors won't touch because it could kill you. :roll: As you're likely aware it will kill you if you eat any of the forbidden foods. Yeah, right. I haven't had to change my diet at all, and still I've never seen my BP rise due to any food. The list of things you really can't eat is quite short and I didn't care for blue cheese even before going on an MAOI. I also can't have fava beans. Does anybody even know what a fava bean is, because I don't? Can't eat rotten banana peels either. Even my pet rats won't eat banana peels, so I'm not sure what human would. Red wine should also kill me, but it just relaxes me. MAOIs are surrounded by hysterically exaggerated myths spread by MDs who parrot what they've been told, having zero clinical experience to tell them it's not even close to accurate.

I had not investigated what Subutex dosage was found most useful for depression or anxiety. I would think such would depend on the individual patient, rather than being a one-size-fits-all thing. I don't yet know how I respond to or metabolize Subutex. I do have quite a long record of requiring high doses of meds. I've never been one of those people who's so super sensitive to meds that they report every effect under the sun from even the smallest of dosages. I'm the polar opposite of those people.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:35 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4134
Q is just saying that it is hard to find a sub doctor who will prescribe both. Don't bruise the messenger!

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:00 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:05 pm
Posts: 66
Location: US, northwest
Hi Karl,

Sounds like you should try Sub. You've obviously done your research, which I wish I'd done more of before I started Sub. Yes, I'm on Sub because I'm an addict, but now that I've been on it for a while, I find myself wondering if I should have tried other methods first.

I used to be a very social person. Then I ended up an opiate addict (long story that I'm sure would bore you), and opiates made me even more social. Fast forward through two years of addiction and starting Sub. Opiate addiction finally turned on me (as it always does), and I became completely antisocial. Sub brought my ability to endure social interaction back and I thought it was a miracle drug. Once I became used to the medication though, I'm back to dreading social interaction unless I'm doing it for work because I don't have a choice. Honestly, all I think about is being alone; maintaining relationships feels like a dreaded chore. I hate it.

So, I know everyone is different, but my point is that once your body is used to Sub, you may find that it will do nothing to help your situation. Then you could be stuck with a dependence issue.

Or, maybe since you've tried everything else, it's worth a shot. I know what depression and social anxiety feel like for the first time in my life, but of course I do not know what it's like for you. So, if you decide to try it, please come back and post on this forum. Hell, even if you don't try it, post away man. There are a lot of caring, intelligent people on this forum and you will find input and support no matter what you decide to do.

Regardless, I wish you the best and hope you find peace. Life isn't perfect, but we all deserve a shot at a life worth living and experiencing peace. You sure do, so if you do try Sub, I really hope it helps you. Please feel free to stay on this forum, no matter what choice you make. Best of luck.

_________________
-BK


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group