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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:37 pm 
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Just started detox on suboxone today from being on 2x oxy 80mg and Roxie 4x 30 mg. been in a lot of pain the last few years, but it was wrecking my relationship with the wife cause I was a careless zombie on the opiates. Never abused them. Just took them for pain. So today is day 1 of my suboxone. I am on 8mg bup and 2mg nalo strips you melt under your tongue. I know this addicting as well and I wanted to know what is the point I should stop myself on the sub Before my body becomes to addicted to it and I can't get off of it. I know I will need to taper and I don't want to be on this stuff for more than a week or 2 so I am not a mess trying to come off this stuff. Today was hell.. I had to show up at the dr in withdraw and I hate that feeling. I don't wish it on my enemy.. He cut the strip in half and I waited for 30min to kick in and it wasn't enough. So I took the other half and I calmed Down after 45 more minutes. I was walking around the dr office in circles and went outside to walk cause I couldn't keep still.
Now from the withdraw I am in some bad pain. Back, knees and legs hurt like a mofo. Reason I was on them in the first place. Got some irritability and sweats now from my body adjusting.. I can deal with that. It's the uncontroll
Ability of the legs and restlessness I can't handle.
Even thought i am in pain I will try to go to the gym tomorrow to keep up some activity.

So how long is the point of no return with suboxone. .?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:54 pm 
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Wow I am on methadone but I wanted to give you some light before you went to bed in case you are still up with pain etc...I took suboxone in a detox facility about 10 years ago actually it was called subutex then which is suboxone without the naxolene (sp??) Anyways it is indeed very effective for what you were taking as ur pain meds. So expect some relief pretty soon if not already.....Back then they did not offer sub for maintenance or at least I never saw it or heard of it being taken for more than like a 30 day detox drug..I was only offered it for a ten day regime. Now people take it more as a maintenance drug then a 30 day or less detox drug. You will find some wonderful information of this site from some very educated sub takers. I myself tried it as a maintenance drug a few years ago, but I ended up having to take methadone instead. I won't go into the details since you need the support right now not me.

I think there is a lot more success when people take it for longer periods than lets say 30 or 90 days but you will run into being dependent on it rather quickly unless you have a doctor that is willing to do a quick detox, but keep in mind....there is a lot more success in not returning to your drug of choice if you take it for a longer period of time....the longer you are on it the more likely when you come off it you will be able to remain clean. I have no pain issues but I have heard from loads of people that do that suboxone is a good pain medication too. I would even think better than methadone due to they are more likely to allow you to take it on a split dose 2 to 4 times a day when methadone is usually single dose although I am allowed split dose as I would spend my evenings still sick in withdrawals and dealing with cravings to use.

From what I read in your post...you did not abuse your prescribed medicine but...you were on a pretty hefty dose which after a while just like suboxone does you become dependent even if not addicted. So because of this dependency to those pain meds, suboxone was definitely warranted. Detoxing off your pain meds without the suboxone would have been horrendous I suspect. Thinking about how much or should I say how less to take or how long or should I say how short you remain on suboxone should not be something you solely focus on when beginning this process just try to keep an open mind to how much you need to take and how long you need to take it so to allow you a successful experience in your needed recovery time. People can set themselves up for failure when they focus on the end before they even begin. Just know in the end, however long that time be....you can be weaned off in a manner comfortably enough I am sure. I have seen people in methadone and suboxone cheat themselves an optimal dose and on optimal recovery time just because they could not allow themselves, their doctor, their body the optimum specifics in time and amount and all that time they did have invested was wasted as they relapsed or had to play the on and off game which kept their body and psyche in total distress.

Relax and have faith....providing you have chose a good doctor, you are honest to the core with them and yourself, keep an open mind and you allow a support system to help you then your chances of success are multiplied. Welcome, keep visiting this site and by tomorrow you should have many replies offering you loads of support and help. Good luck. Tell us more tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:59 am 
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Hi Samcro


I had a hard transition from pain meds to subxone, also. I hurt REALLY bad, every ache seemed magnified twenty times over, for the first two weeks. BUT , what I can tell you for sure is, your pain SHOULD (mine did) get better within ten to fourteen days. after that first two weeks, I felt better than I had in YEARS, and that was even with enough pain meds to kill a horse.

What concerns me, in your case is, what are you going to do about pain, if you plan on goin off suboxone??? Your not wanting to go back to oxy, right? So you're going to take suboxone a 'short time' and then what/??

Im just curious.
Thats the very reason, Im probably going to remain on maintenance, with suboxone. I obviously cannot take another opiate, ever 'as perscribed'
so suboxone has proven to work well, without the 'ups and downs' that opiates (oxy/dilluad/morphine) gave me.

your going to have 'long term withdrawl' symptoms, or PAWS, no matter what opiate (drug) you stop taking. so , Im not sure how long you were on oxy, but even if you only took suboxone, lets say two weeks, you'd most likely still suffer some effects from long term pain med use.
(sweating, restlessness, etc) At least thats how it was for me. Even ON subxone, I still had symptoms, just as I described, but they were at least 'bearable' on the sub, whereas everytime, BEFORE, I never made it more than a few days.

Good luck in whatever you decide

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:25 am 
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Hi Samcro and welcome to the forum. You've gotten some excellent advice from both Finallyachance and Amber. Finallyachance really hit on the things I wanted to say, but worded it even better than I could have and I can't think of a thing she left out.

Remember, you were ALREADY dependent on opiates. Suboxone is another opiate, albeit a partial agonist, as compared to "regular" pain pills which are full agonists. Suboxone is used (in short term detox) as an aid to taper you off your DOC. Being in withdrawals before you induce onto suboxone is just part of the process to avoid precipitated withdrawals. (You should be feeling MUCH better by now...are you?)

Amber also made an excellent point. If you have chronic pain and go off suboxone quickly, what WILL you do for your pain? You are dependent on pain meds and obviously want off them and you say you don't want to be on sub more than a week or two....that will leave you with nothing to treat your pain.

I also take sub for two chronic pain conditions. I've been on it for 3.5 years and that is because i have zero other ways to treat my pain. It doesn't erase it all, but for the most part (on a typical day), it makes it tolerable.

Lastly, try to remember there is a difference between being addicted to a substance and being dependent on it. You're telling us you weren't addicted to your DOC, but are worried about becoming addicted to suboxone. Chances are you won't become addicted since you haven't become so far. You would, however, be DEPENDENT on it.

I hope this helps you in some way, if only a little bit. Please do let us know how you're doing. And ask as many questions as you may have. We're here to help if we can. Hang in there.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:43 am 
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Thanks for all the help and well wishes. Last night was rough. I was in a lot of pain, mostly achy, so I took a bath a d it helped a lot and I did get an hour or two of sleep. Woke up with the sweats and walked around a bit and lowered the ac a bit and was on the couch in my superman undies for a while. Waiting a little longer to take my next strip. Dr said if tonight I feel withdraws kicking in I can can a half strip.
I got a natural healthy pharmacy near with a good Pharmacist. So he gave me many of the stuff already that is used in the Timothy method. I did add one or 2 different compounds to the list in kavanase and NAC 600.
Kavanase helps producing natural GABA and helps with sleep and anxiety.mwhile the NAC 600 helps with supporting your body with antioxidants. Along with milk thistle and vitamins. I use the 5 hour energy for the B vitamins. I don't do the whole bottle at once, I split it up 3x a day. Forgot I take L-Tyrosene as well. I know the 5 hour has taurine in it to produce Tyrosene, a little more won't hurt.

It's funny what you all are asking me what I am gonna do for pain, cause I told my sister adbut me detoxing and she asked me the same thing. I was in a lot of pain before cause of my demanding job. On my feet alot, bending and kneeling a lot to was taking a toll on my back and knees. So I lost my job in 2009 and been home since and my pain levels are much less and I wanted to see what my pain levels really were so that and a few other reasons I wanted to get off the opiates. I started with 10mg many years ago and quickly got to where I am at now. I would say I was addicted and dependent on it cause I could never go anywhere with out my snack Baggie filled with a few Roxi in case I forgot. I had each car loaded with a few in case I forgot as well.. I am gonna feel so happy not having to remember to bring my meds along with me. Kinda like smokers needing to bring their pack with them.

My only big fear is since I was so dependent on the opiates that the suboxone will dig it's fingers in me and won't release me when I want to go. If my pain levels come back to the point where I need to do more surgery, or be on some type of pain meds again I will cross that bridge when I get there. I just want to free my mind and body while I have a chance to.


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 Post subject: Keep an open mind.....
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:05 pm 
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My only big fear is since I was so dependent on the opiates that the suboxone will dig it's fingers in me and won't release me when I want to go. If my pain levels come back to the point where I need to do more surgery, or be on some type of pain meds again I will cross that bridge when I get there. I just want to free my mind and body while I have a chance to.



Like I said in my earlier post just keep an open mind and gather all the knowledge you can. There was one other thing I failed to mention mostly because I did not want it to appear that I am trying to influence you to stay on a medicine for any reason when your hopes are to not have to be or remain on meds, but the more you know the more you will have the ability to make an informed decision when needed.

So many times this happens to opiate addicts and or opiate dependents even. People are not so aware of this...and personally sometimes I think it is best for people to not know about this....But...in your situation where you need to read what your body is telling you in the next few weeks, I think it is important you keep an eye on this....It's called HYPERALGESIA and every time, I would try to get off the opiates, Issues with this would pop up one after another creating obstacles and delays. But worse than the obstacles and delays was the PAIN...It seemed to me without even knowing what it was I hurt all the time. I never had constant pain but pretty much after the first five or so years of addicton/dependence everything started going to hell, kidney stones, gall bladder problems, teeth issues and the pain seemed so compounded. Also back then PAWS wasn't even acknowledged much less HYPERALGESIA. Well still to this day 25 or so years later....I am dealing with it.

http://www.spineuniversity.com/files/Jo ... lgesia.pdf
Now researchers have found that opioids can
encourage or increase the sensitivity of how
someone feels pain. This is called a heightened
pain sensitivity, or opioid-induced hyperalgesia.
Hyperalgesia simply means more
sensitive response to pain than what is considered
to be normal.
Doctors have long known that hyperalgesia
can happen to people who are withdrawing
from opioids, after an addiction. They were
surprised to find that this could happen at any
time during opioid therapy, not just when a
patient stops taking it. This brought about the
theory that if the medication wasn’t effective
anymore because of the increased sensitivity,
maybe the body was somehow interpreting this
as withdrawal and giving the withdrawal-like
symptoms, such as diarrhea and shaking


http://www.news-medical.net/news/201204 ... gesia.aspx
Results showed that maintenance therapy with either methadone or buprenorphine for hyperalgesic heroin-dependent individuals did not significantly change or worsen their pain responses. Based on these findings, the authors recommend that clinicians consider the potential impact of opioid-induced hyperalgesia associated with opiate addiction disorders when treating patients who use opiates legitimately or illicitly. [u]

Those I found just googling the words hyperalgesia and addiction in same search box.

Hang in there. How are you doing today????[u]

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Hey samcro I have heard terrible things about taking milk thistle while taking sub. Might want to drop that.

Btw cool screen name.

-glen


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Today I am doing good. Thanks for asking. Only issues I have so far is how utterly awful the strip tastes. Omfg!!
And my legs are still achy.
Thanks for the links. I did hear about the hyper stuff and how the body reacts. It's kinda like limes disease.mi had it 3 times badly. You get cued of the infection but the symptoms don't go away and is called chronic lymes and no dr can fully explain why someone is still having issues when the infection is cleared with antibiotics.
Funny thing you should mention about teeth problems. I went from no cavities as a kid to needing 10k worth of dental work done. I could only afford 4k of it which was 2 root canals and crowns. The dentist told me about how pain meds thickens your saliva and makes it more acidic so the acid dissolves your teeth. So he said fluoride is very important to us. He said one fluoride ion swapping places is stronger than 10 calcium ions. All my cavities are on the outside of my teeth along the gum line.

My buddy who has had 3 spinal neck fusions the first to at c4-c5, c6c7 didn't take and had a 3rd to redo both is on the bupe patch only and is still on meds and has to ween off the meds and the bupe. I think that would suck. he stopped over to check up on me and to see how I was doing.
Good to have people around you that know about pain and pain meds when others around you want to judge you and think of you as an addict.

My uncle has a post retirement job where he picks up addicts and takes them to the methadone clinic for their meds every day. Him, my sis in law ( she is a Be I Itch) and another member of the family were making fun of these people needing to go and after listening to them for a while joking and laughing I chimed in saying your basically making fun of me cause I am taking opiate pain meds and are dependent on them as well. Sis in law justified it as I was on it legally and they weren't. I said no its not and I asked to to talk to them and I bet most of them started taking pain meds for a real reason and it spired out of control. I told them I was proud of them for actually doing something about the addiction and I walked away. Don't judge till you were in their shoes I said.

Sorry for rambling off. Feels good to let out some feelings.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:46 pm 
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glen bee wrote:
Hey samcro I have heard terrible things about taking milk thistle while taking sub. Might want to drop that.

Btw cool screen name.

-glen


I took milk thistle a lot while on Sub with no issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:40 am 
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glen bee wrote:
Hey samcro I have heard terrible things about taking milk thistle while taking sub. Might want to drop that.

Btw cool screen name.

-glen


Thx! I am a big fan of sons of anarchy. I will check out the milk thistle with sub.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:27 am 
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Hey dudes I was thinking of St Johns Wort, sorry for the mix up. Doh!


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