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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:08 pm 
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I am back. The irony in all of this upsets me. I am feeling OK. OBVIOUSLY. But it is like a low grade Vicodin withdrawal. The very thing that got me onto Suboxone to begin with. WITHDRAWAL. People may say that I got on Suboxone because I am a drug addict. Those are people who do not know me or totally understand the circumstances that led me to Sub.
I got back last night. I am a bit jet lagged. Went from Reno to Michigan then back. But it was worth it. I met some wonderful patients, caregivers, ems personnel, and I FINALLY met a DR. that BELIEVED in recovery!! Also got great advice from their on staff psychologist. He recommended a duel psychologist/psychiatrist and I will be looking for one as soon as I am feeling aces!
I want everyone to know that I will be TOTALLY honest with any questions you may have.
The only real problem I ran into was the lady that drew my blood had started that very day and she could not get a vein until the fifth try. Never an IV drug user. Just tiny veins. So I got bruised up pretty bad. AND I HATE NEEDLES!!
I can only hope that we can all be grown ups and not delete this thread. There are many people who had shown interest in this process. Although it is not looked upon as a highly recommended medical procedure, I can say that I was treated very well. I feel blessed to have been able to do this. I wish every one of you that wanted to could. It is rather expensive. But, in the long run, in my mind, worth every penny.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:25 pm 
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I am really glad to see that you're back and have posted again! I can't tell you how many people just up and vanish from here, never to be heard from again. I am really looking forward to seeing how you do now that you are post rapid detox. Unfortunately, I'm one of those who firmly believe that you have a very minimal chance of being able to stay off of opiates going forward. I certainly wish you all the best and really hope that you beat the odds. It's just a pure and simple fact that the statistics are not at all in your favor. Then again, someone has to make up that 5-10% - so I really do hope it is you! I would really like to hear all of the details of what happened, how it worked, what you felt - all of it. Please write as much detail as you can about everything that took place. By the way, I too very much hope that no one goes and deletes any of this as well. I may not agree with your method here but I agree much less with censorship. Please continue to be very honest with us - even if that honesty gets to be more difficult in the future. Obviously if everything goes as you have planned, you'll have no trouble telling us all about it. Unfortunately if things should go less than planned, I'm sure the temptation will be there to color coat things just a little bit. That's just human nature. Please understand that I'm not against you or your recovery. I very much hope that you see success from the path you have chosen.

Regardless, thanks again for taking the time to come back and post. Please let us know how these next days and weeks go for you. And again, I would love to hear all about your experience this past week, and I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:44 pm 
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Thank you. I am not sure where you found your recovery stats. People recover EVERY day. And I am determined to be in that group. I will post every day. How I am feeling. What I am taking for symptoms. And what happened at the clinic. There is so much to say, so I will just post as people ask questions.
And thank you for believing in me. It really means a lot. And in most cases, all it takes is for someone to believe in them.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:00 pm 
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Sugarcain
I am glad your back and hopefully when your up to it please give us a full play by play......I have been in AA for 4 years and attend alot of conferences and AA sponsered functions and I know there are thousands and thousands there..but donh is right about the prcentage..actually the success rate in AA is actually lower than what what he said but it is around 3% to 6%. I know we don't want to believe it but it is true......that is long term sobriety..many rehabs hype the numbers mine told me 91% but I later found out that was 1 year clean after leaving the facility. I went to my two year reunion of rehab...out of 36 only 3 of us were still alcohol free,4 were dead and many relaspsed......there is a reason I never give up my chair at a meeting for anyone.......glad your back. Let us know how it all went.......

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:04 pm 
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I googled it and as of a 2007 study it was 5% or less...........this is a deadly disease....


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:49 pm 
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I guess the fact that my mother was taken from me at such a young age from drug toxicity due to high doses of methadone, soma, restorill, and klonopin from a pain management clinic for fibromyalgia, and being a mother myself, I am more determined to beat this. It was as if my mother didn't matter once she was sent to the clinic and had nothing to offer society anymore. I saw her lose her zest for life. I saw her quality of life dwindle away, and that is what was happening to me. Suboxone imprisoned me. I felt no way out. A slave to another medication.
Everyone has their reason for being on this med. And I think they are doing what is best for them. But people have committed suicide on this medication. That is a DOCUMENTED fact.
And now I saw on line that Dr.'s are using it for an anti-depressant.
REALLY? This is the kind of stuff that has me questioning everything, and trusting few in the medical field


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:16 am 
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Let's get real here. There is ZERO link between suicide and suboxone and I am really upset that this was even insinuated in your post. I DO appreciate you coming back here and sharing your information because it is good to hear YOUR experience. However, you have a lot of bad information too. The recovery stats as provided by donh and reraise and plain and simple fact. Which is why many people are happy to be in a position where they feel a bit tired in exchange for death.

With that being said....I just want to put a couple things out there about the suicide comment.

A lot of people who take ibuprofin commit suicide but that doesn't mean the ibuprofin caused them to be suicidal.

A LOT of people get hooked on opiates because they are depressed to begin with and getting on suboxone isn't guaranteed to get rid of that depression.

A LOT of people get sober and realize how bad their lives are screwed up and feel there is no way back.

A LOT of people (most) take suboxone and don't feel suicidal and don't kill themselves.

Some people were likely to kill themselves anyways regardless of the suboxone.

If suboxone is supposedly causing someone to want to commit suicide, then I would think they could just get off of it. And if they claim they can't get off of it, then they wouldn't have gotten off the opiates either and would probably STILL want to commit suicide. I don't know ANYONE who feels worse on suboxone (those taking it as prescribed by a doctor) than they did on opiates. So the bottom line is that it is still an absolute blessing and those who don't like it should be very careful because this drug saved your life too and we don't want people to dismiss suboxone as a recovery option when statistically it is the BEST tool out there for addiction right now and at least it is giving us all extra years of our lives. I am EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL that suboxone could cause someone to be suicidal and I would need to see research to back it up before I would believe it. Given what the drug is used for, there are just too many other factors at play that could actually be the cause.

PLEASE keep in mind when posting the audience who may be reading this. There have been many people in active addiction who have stumbled across this site, gotten on suboxone a week later BECAUSE of what they read, and who come back here thanking everyone for the good information. It doesn't take much for an addict to shun a new treatment idea and thinking this drug could make them want to kill themselves could be one of them.

It seems to me that because at the tail end of your suboxone experience you became tired of it, that you search for information to support your claims of how bad it is. You are entitled to YOUR experience regardless of anyone elses. You are very focused on the negative effects you experienced and not on the positive, which I don't think is very fair. Based on what you have shared, it is quite possible the only reason you are even alive today is because of suboxone. We won't know that until more time has passed and you can see how you do with sobriety long term. Dr. Junig has asked anyone who has gotten off suboxone and hasn't relapsed after 5 years to get in contact with him so I hope you won't forget that challenge. It would be great if you could be the first one.

I don't know of any doctor using suboxone to treat depression although I am sure it has happened and probably continues to happen. But if someone has been depressed for years and wants to kill themselves and the usual anti-depressants haven't worked for them, why not? Don't those people have a right to live a decent life too? Shouldn't they get to choose if this is a risk they wish to take or not? I am one of those people who has not been helped by the traditional anti-depressant medications and suboxone works for me. Suboxone helps with my depression more than any other anti-depressant I have ever tried and it is also great because I have ADD so I tend to forget to take drugs that don't have an immediate impact or effect. So I can take this one regularly whereas I struggle with others. It is perfect for me.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:16 am 
Thank you Jackcrack and ditto to everything you said!
Sugarcain - If you don't want your posts to be deleted, YOU MUST AVOID comments like the following: "....a slave to another medication." "People have committed suicide on this medication."
Please don't imply that you have been treated unfairly or censored by this forum either. ONE of your many posts was edited NOT deleted. Right there on the thread I explained the reason for the edit and told everyone what was edited and why. I am very much a "grown up" and I am, in fact, interested in your experience and your outcome. However, what I am more interested in is......The greater good. If something you say on here is overtly anti-Suboxone, serves no purpose to anyone other than yourself, and ultimately results in an addict not seeking treatment with buprenorphine thereby costing him/her his/her life....then I will risk irritating a few of you and delete such comments. So give me a break already!! I feel like you have actually been treated quite well here. Dr. Junig took the time to give you a lengthy, detailed reply. Seriously I don't what more you could you want.
How you describe yourself as feeling right now as far the low-grade withdrawal is exactly what I expected you to feel like. I hope it gets better each day, but I'm sorry to say that I highly doubt it will. It's unlikely to be one bit different than what you would feel like at about day 7 of a regular old cold-turkey withdrawal. But hey, you got to skip the worst 3-5 days! That's gotta be worth something! I'm glad you encountered some kind and caring individuals and that you were treated well. I hope you will take their advice and begin care at home as soon as possible.
Despite my not necessarily seeing eye to eye with you on everything, I do completely empathize with your situation. I'm sorry for the loss of your dear mother and I'm sorry you found yourself in the living Hell of opiate addiction. I'm sure you are an intelligent and nice person who wants nothing more than to get better and go on with your life. I want exactly the same thing! I am choosing to get there by taking buprenorphine with hopes of eventually tapering off. You tried that route and were unsuccessful. You've now tried something different. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that in my book. I applaud you for sharing the experience with us and I sincerely hope you will continue to do so, whatever the ultimate outcome.
I just encourage you to be careful about placing the blame for your struggles on Suboxone. Blame your addiction, for sure, but not the drug that is helping so many of us have better than a ~5% of keeping our addiction in remission.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:53 pm 
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It's funny...when I quit Suboxone (after my taper) I remember thinking that the withdrawal was not even as bad as low-level vicodin withdrawal. It was like having a mild cold.

I'm glad you are feeling allright. Thanks for coming back and letting us know.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:50 pm 
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I will apologize for that last post. I am very emotional right now. I have been numb on replacement therapy for so long that my brain is going haywire.
To the person that posted their Sub kick was like a low vicodin withdrawal, what milligram were you up to and how fast did you ween. Because that has a lot to do with how bad your withdrawal is. I went into Rapid Detox on 16 mgs. for 3 years. My kick would have been horrendous.
The reason I mentioned suicide on this med is because I was very upset by what happened yesterday.
The nurse from the RD clinic called to check on me. She had a man on the phone that was extremely desperate. I asked if it would help if I talked to him since I had just returned. He agreed to call.
I was on the phone with him. A broken 47 year old man. His story was very similar to mine. He was not an addict. Then one of his molars started bothering him. The doc put him on 7.5 Vicodin. He got hooked. He told his GP and was given Methadone. Then his Dr. decided to put him on Suboxone when he weened himself down. Sound familiar? Same song and dance I got from my Dr. Same lies. I am NOT anti SUB. I am anti DOCTORS that do not know what they are prescribing to low opiate users. I want to make that clear.
He told me his entire story. Said he wanted to just take every pill he had and end it. That he was on 16 mgs for 3 years, got down to 3mgs and was in extreme withdrawal. I was basically paying it forward. It felt good. He is going to Michigan in 8 days.
Today I have very low energy. No other symptoms really. Just tired muscles. And I am very emotional. And trust me. I am not the kind of person that wears their heart on their sleeve.
I am truly sorry if I offended anyone. I am just here to tell my story.
I guess if you don't agree with me, then you do not have to read what I have to say.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:27 pm 
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Just when I think you get it and are sincere.........you go right back to stepping on toes. Sorry but I didn't hear an apology there...I heard an excuse. They read it because they are moderators and they have to make sure people are not on here vomitting subtrifuge.......If you would have put as much energy into looking into to suboxone as you did rapid detox you may not be here. When I found out about suboxone..I researched everything I could..the good and the bad. With the people on this site...not my doctor, I made the decision to get on suboxone. My doctor did not force it down my throat or threaten me to take it.....but I am glad I did. I know your story is different, you have it worse, your special..........aren't we all? Listen I wanted to know about this for the future. I even stood up for you but I have to tell you I won't bother to read your post because I am not obiligated to. I want to help others who seek or have sought suboxone or subutex as their option for addiction remission. I want to share experience and knowledge with them about how this medicine along with 12 steps, therapy and this site has changed me over the last year and given me a chance to be a better person....to not lie, cheat, steal.........take responsibility for my descisions and actions....not blame others for my problems and make outrageous statements about suicide and slave to this medicne and then offer an apology that ended up being another excuse for your behavior. Good luck to you ...I hope this works for you but I truly doubt that it will because people I know that want to be truly clean and sober are willing to go to any lengths and listen to suggestions..........This is only my opinion and yes I should give you a break becasue you just went through a very hugh experience.............I think asleep. Having true w/d's was painful enough for me to never abuse my subs and listen to what my doctor tells me and people on this site that have walked before me.........and I am sorry if this offends you......really.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Here is how I view the whole suboxone and "low dose" opiates issue. I was initially prescribed vicodin for pain. I used it properly for a long time. But then there were times when I would really just want to feel NO PAIN at all and I would take a third. Or I would take them several days in a row (for pain) and instead of just dealing with the pain for a couple days I would get another script. Ultimately, I was the one who took oxycontin which is what really got me addicted. But had I not taken the oxycontin, I would have gotten addicted to the vicodin anyways most likely. To become an addict, you have to take too much, have too high of expectations for it alleviating ALL pain, or you have to be somewhat irresponsible with the painkillers. At some point, I think most of us had that little voice that said we didn't really NEED more and we took it anyways thinking we were different, wouldn't get addicted, or could handle a few days of mild withdrawal to get off of it. At some point, and most of us aren't exactly sure where/when, we cross that line and we are addicted. (Lots of people take painkillers and don't get addicted because they are different than we are). Ultimately, I am responsible for my opiate addiction, not anyone else. I may not have done it on purpose. I may not have known what was in store for me. But I am still responsible for it. No one did this to me.

What is a doctor supposed to do once you have crossed that line into addiction? They can try to taper you but most tapers with addicts aren't very successful. They CAN'T do it. So it seems doctors give methadone because they think that this would be easier to get off of than the vicodin. I have never taken methadone but it seems many addicts just need more and more of this to achieve the same effect. It seems the best thing to help someone get off of methadone is suboxone. The only reason I can see someone prescribe oxycodone or oxycontin prior to the suboxone is that people have such a hard time inducting from methadone. It does seem odd to me. But really, you weren't given suboxone to get off of low dose vicodin. You were on methadone and you were addicted to it just like you were addicted to the vicodin.

Doctors are really in a lose lose situation with addicts because there is NO CURE and patients look to them for help. Can you think of a better way they could have done it? What would it have been? How would it have been different? Quite frankly, of the three drugs, suboxone is the easiest one to taper off of and you couldn't get below 16mg so I hardly doubt a taper program would have worked with the vicodin or the methadone for you as it only would have been HARDER. Having you take oxy didn't get you addicted. You were already there and you certainly had the option of doing the research.

No one is to blame but ourselves and this disease and it just is what it is. We can either choose to be angry (which sometimes I am....recently in fact there have been a few pity parties in my brain) or we can choose to be grateful that we are still here and have more than one option these days. I think accepting that we are addicts is the first step and there have been many times where I have accepted this fact only to turn around some time later and realize we have fallen backwards or have gotten back into denial (people who stop attending NA meetings....people like me who go cold turkey off suboxone without a plan....because I am different :roll: ).

Bottom line is that I don't know what else a doctor is supposed to do with an opiate addict. It isn't their fault. They didn't cause this disease and most of the treatment options aren't very successful and they suck. I am sure it is rather depressing for the doctor quite frankly.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Sugarcain, I have to say your story about the guy you talked to on the phone raises some red flags. Firstly, you can not get methadone from a GP for the treatment of addiction. That would be illegal. A GP can prescribe methadone for pain management, but it's not legal for anyone but a licensed clinic to give methadone to treat addiction. j

And you say that he wasn't an addict, but you also say that he couldn't stop taking vicodin. Well, that is basically the definition of an addict, isn't it? I wasn't an addict either, until I developed chronic pain and started using and then abusing opiates.

I understand that you feel sorry for this guy. We are all human beings and we deserve compassion. For many of us, it was exposure to opiates for legitimate pain that sparked our addiction. But as you said yourself, after the prescription ran out, you got your drugs illicitly. However you or the guy you talked to on the phone ended up where you are, you still have an addiction. It really doesn't matter how you got that way. What matters is what choices you are going to make going forward.

To answer your questions, I was on Suboxone for 2 years. I started at 16mgs, went down to 8mgs for a while, then 4mgs for a while. I tapered off under a doctor's supervision, slowly, over a period of months.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:43 pm 
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Like I said. My emotions are on overdrive. If you think I am sincere one minute and not the next, that may be true. I am a wreck right now. Emotionally raw. I cried over an f'ing commercial today.
So again I apologize.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:59 pm 
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I don't know if you deleted your last post or not, but here's the response I wrote when it was still posted.

First of all anecdotal side effects can be reported on ANY medication. This is not unique. Secondly, suboxone is manufactured in this country - Virginia, to be exact. Any person can have any side effect on any medication. You are making statements completely out of context and I don't find that to be fair.

And to say the people on this forum aren't dedicated to recovery is also unfair.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:00 pm 
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I stopped sub once at 8mg/day

#1 symptom:

MOOD SWINGS, MAINLY CRYING SPELLS

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:59 pm 
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sugarcain,

you might find that some moderate exercise will help with the moodiness; it was a big help to me. Best of luck.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:04 am 
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I stopped suboxone once too. After the physical withdrawal....main symptom.....MOOD SWINGS! HAH! Hence me getting back on the suboxone.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Rather than argue about this or that - and reiterate your story about how your doc did this or that to you, is there any chance that we can get you to tell us about the recent rapid detox that you went through? I've heard the story about what your doc did to you three or four times now but have yet to hear the story about how rapid detox went, even once. I would really like to hear what all took place. Please give us a time-line from when you arrived at the center to what the procedure was like, how you felt when you first woke up, what the staff did for the next day or two. Tell us about the first hours after waking up. Tell us about the first day. Did they put you in a hotel or were you admitted to a center of some sorts for observation?

I would also like to hear how you are doing now and how the course of the next days and weeks go. It sounds, from the little bit that you have written, that you are experiencing opiate withdrawal. Is that the case? If not, what are you feeling? I thought the whole point of this was to be able to avoid feeling like this. Please tell us about your experience. Or, is there a reason you have been reluctant so far to provide more information?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:38 pm 
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I am SO TIRED of you dogging on suboxone I can't even explain it. I don't even CARE anymore how your rapid detox went because my opinion at this point is that you are extremely NEGATIVE and in DENIAL about multiple things and that you probably will not do well. You were on such a "high dose" because you admitted you couldn't taper. You talk about it being the WORST WITHDRAWAL ever yet YOU COULDN'T TAPER. So you aren't speaking from personal experience even. You claim to have been "just a vicodin user" but you were on METHADONE.

You say you don't want an argument but I think everyone here has made it pretty damn clear that we don't want to hear your negativity about suboxone yet EVERY SINGLE post you have made has some BS, non-factual garbage about suboxone. This site was developed specifically so people like me don't have to sit here and here this shit from you. You have been beyond disrespectful to everyone here. You belong at a subsux site and I wish they would ban you from this site for repeatedly violating the rules already. Your posts being deleted or edited isn't enough.

We have all asked you nicely to stop. You don't seem to care about anyone's experience but your own. I don't find that you are bringing any value to this site. IN MY OPINION.

Cherie


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