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 Post subject: so worried
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Sugar,

I really hope that you take Roby’s comments (and those that followed) seriously….I found it interesting the Roby, who is new to the forum, read your comments and immediately saw some of the problems with your plan. To me, that is an indication that these problems are pretty obvious to anyone who is in recovery, and not just nitpicking comments that we have been making to fight with you.

All frustration aside, I really beg you to take a good, hard look at what you are doing, especially in the context of what happened to your mother, who died from a combination of dangerous drugs that overwhelmed her body. You are in the same situation, and one wrongly timed dose or doses could very easily overwhelm your respiratory system.

You have a little girl that you obviously love very much….think about how hard it was for you to lose your Mom. You have mentioned that your daughter is a motivating factor in your recovery, so please think about what you are doing with the benzos and muscle relaxers….this should be part of your recovery as well.

You have been home from over a week now, have you made an appointment with a therapist or gone to a meeting? This MUST be the top priority for you….it HAS TO BE DONE…it isn’t optional. I speak about this from personal experience. In December, I stopped going to meetings and re-scheluded many of my therapy sessions because I had work, school, holiday stuff, etc. Then I relapsed, and I had no one to go to. I was too embarrassed to tell my family, and too proud to go back to the people that I had avoided for so long....so I kept using. Please go to meetings, and please contact a doctor asap... I really hope that you can get in with a Psychiatrist who does therapy, because I truly think that you need an MD to follow your case and give you some advice about getting off of all of these medications.

Please take these comments seriously….I’m not trying to be morose, I just want to be honest with you, and I am honestly scared. Please read (and re-read) all of the other comments throughout this thread. Anger aside, these comments have been motivated by love and compassion….please go to a doctor, tell him/her about EVERYTHING, and get some real medical help.

All the best,

Elizabeth

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Elizabeth

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"Don't hope for a life without problems. An easy life results in a judgmental and lazy mind."
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 Post subject: WOW
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:12 am 
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Well, this was a very interesting read. For those who care, Sugarcain has found the echo-chamber she was apparently searching for over that that anti-suboxone forum that was mentioned here (and wow are there some misguided and uninformed people over there spewing some irrational garbage!)

What I got out of reading this thread is a good reminder of the power of one of the most glaring and dangerous symptoms of the disease of addiction: DENIAL

Clearly, these so-called "Rapid-Detox" programs are mostly grabs for money from desperate, scared, uninformed addicts.

The fact that someone would leave such a place still taking Benzos and Soma is enough for me to rate the entire process this way: :roll:

And I'm going to be really honest here. My opinion -and this is only my totally subjective opinion, based on being a 46 year old junkie who has been addicted to heroin, oxycodone, and any other opiate drugs for 30 years- if you really WANT to successfully wean down from 16mg of Suboxone and are willing to accept the assistance of others in doing it, I believe anyone who truly wants to do so, can do so.

I also want to just add one more thing here, in case any new people are lurking here and reading this thread. Under the correct circumstances, Suboxone can be an excellent and extremely effective treatment option for someone who is addicted to opiate medication. I firmly believe that it saved my life.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 10:15 am 
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Thank you Junkie! I truly appreciate your concern for the people who come into these threads to obtain accurate information to help them make decisions about what to do with their addictions.

I would also like to add that Sugarcain has started a new thread under "side effects" which goes a little further into the PAWS she continues to experience just like anyone who gets off of ANY opiate.

There is also a current thread where people ran low on suboxone before their scheduled doctor visit and who were able to take only a fraction of their prescribed dosage and still not experience withdrawal while waiting for the appointment which is further evidence that tapering is not the same as trying to taper from a full agnoist opiate and does not cause withdrawal or physical symptoms one cannot live with.

Finally, I would like to reiterate here that when I went off suboxone without tapering, I was able to manage my withdrawal symptoms with mostly non-addictive substances for a short time period which enabled me to continue working and only cost a small amount of money mostly covered by my insurance. I did not spend my life savings on rapid detox and felt pretty much the same as Sugarcain does after two weeks and would have felt the exact same way at one week had I been given all the addictive substances she has been provided and is now trying to figure out how to either get off of or maintain.....not sure which at this point. Either way, I think that alone makes it very clear that rapid detox did not rid her of her addiction or her "slavery" to drugs.

Unlike with benzo's, I can drop my dose of suboxone by several miligrams per day and not even notice the difference unlike Sugarcain's current experience where she is concerned about working in her current state after dropping her dose of Xanax. That doesn't sound like freedom to me.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:21 am 
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Well, to be fair, I'm sure that tapering from any of the "benzo" class drugs is different from tapering from a partial agonist or full agonist narcotic, but your point stands.

I guess what I don't get is what's the point of a rapid detox, if, at the conclusion of the experience you feel the same way as you would have had you not done the rapid detox? All you really end up getting is you skip three days of WD by sleeping though it, right? That's a heck of a lot of money to be coughing up -not to mention the risks involved- just to avoid three days of WD symptoms. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:49 pm 
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"Terminally Unique". Besides all the back and forth with who is angry or in denial or passive aggressive ways of knocking suboxone the "ya but you don't understand" and "I've been mislead by doctors" is what worries me about your long term sobriety. Most of us have had people close to us die because of addiction and we have watched people we care about ruin their lives. We have kids, jobs, mortgages, spouses, and a whole list of things we have to deal with along with trying to stay clean. Don't get me wrong, I honestly feel for you losing your Mother and watching a co-worker have problems but that is life. It sucks sometimes and I don't mean to sound cold but we all have to deal with these things. The fact that you have had a rough time lately makes you no different than anyone else. Life is going to continue to happen wheather we like it or not. My first sponsor use to call me Terminally Unique because I always had an excuse, an event in my past, something that made my recovery harder and different than everyone elses. Maybe this applies to you maybe it dosn't but right now you are were you are, for whatever the reason. Forget about who wronged or mislead you and deal with life today. Why do you think 75% of AA meetings are about getting over resentments? We don't handle them well. If you are talking (or writing) about these things so much you are probably thinking about them twice as much. Let go and live. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:06 pm 
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I am new to the forum, I can see from reading this post, which was the first one I clicked on here, that opinions are HIGH, putting it mildly.
I'm surprised so many people here are so defensive about suboxone, this is NOT what I expected to find when I started my search for people to talk to and help me with my struggles with this drug. I don't know what i expected exactly, but not this.
I was obviously very interested in this "rapid detox" and the op's outcome, I'm so glad you posted this, OP. It sheds light on the fact it's not the cure all for drug abuse.
My experience:
I feel very cheated by doctors, I don't care how many people here may think that it's wrong for me to feel that way, I do feel that way, I was never advised that by starting suboxone I was accepting a whole new drug into my life that would soon take complete control and wrap me up in a world I CANNOT seem to get out of no matter how devoted I am. I want to stop it so BAD, and I completely believe in this OP's statement that the potential to commit suicide while on this medication exists, I find the ibuprophin example, stupid and ignorant as well as down playing what some of us may feel and why. I have felt, first hand the feelings of helplessness that I never knew before suboxone. It's true, I'm a living breathing example of someone who started suboxone thinking it was cure all to my addiction problem, caring less if I needed it forever, ignorant to what that commitment would really mean to my entire life, including my family.
I know that for some people this is an amazing drug and taking it forever may be exactly what they needed to live a full and happy life drug free, but no happy ending here.
I am 35, have fibromyalgia, mother of three, step mother to one, ages are 17-son, 16-step son, 8-daughter, 5-son. Two of them, my step son and my youngest son have cystic fibrosis the younger of them also has cerebral palsy, so my life is chaos as a norm, and everyone demands a lot from me. My drug abuse began after the birth of my youngest son, with the severe disabilities. I lost my job as an officer which I had loved very much, I needed to stay home with my son. It started with the percocet I was given after the traumatic delivery, I was desperate to get to my son whom had been sent to a children's hospital two hours away so I left the hospital against the advise of physicians but I know they all understood at the time, but the pain was intense, walking the halls of the huge children's hospital was incredibly painful for me and realistically I did need relief to keep doing what I was doing, and they were willing to keep providing, in a normal situation I think this could have all gone ok, but I was obviously extremely sad and upset about what was happening and when we were told he would most likely never have any quality of life I lost all hope, that's about the time I realized my pain meds were not only helping with my physical pain but they were actually helping with my emotional pain. I could go into great detail about the next few years but it's probably pretty typical of anyone else who fell into this drug accidently, like most of you, and just kept falling.
Once I decided to quit and I did for two weeks with barely any w/d whatsoever. I felt great and I wish so much I had just stayed that way, wish I had gone to a mental health dr specializing in drug abuse, but instead I went back to my pain meds. Thinking there was no way I could do this myself I decided to go for help. I made an appointment at the clinic for recovery and was put on suboxone. At first, I was so happy, what a miracle drug, no more cravings I can live a normal life, yeah right. That was 17 months and a whole mess of problems ago. It wasn't long before I noticed I needed a stronger dose to get the feeling of satisfaction, after a couple of months I began taking half a pill, later a whole pill, then two, then the tolerance I had to accept, it wasn't working like it had before, the cravings were back. Then came the financial problems and I could no longer attend my clinic, it had been very difficult anyway, it was 45 minutes away and I had to go up there once a week so they could do a urine test and I couldn't understand why they couldn't see my situation was so hard and give me a break, I had to bring my son up there nearly every time, huge difficult to use wheelchair and all. But that's how my experience went. I hated it. But in the end it was the money that stopped me, I could not afford the ridiculous price they put on recovery and it makes me so angry that it's so hard to get help but so easy to get addicted.
I had a bottle of suboxone left, so I thought well, I'm going to have to stop now, so the tapering began. The depression started. Every time I got close to getting off of them the w/d's were more than I could withstand. I believe my fibromyalgia may play a big part in why w/d's are so intense for me, I do not understand why some don't have a big problem with suboxone w/d. Mine was horrid. Out of all the w/d symptoms I could handle the pain, the restless leg and all that, it was the depression, it was more than depression it was hopelessness at it's worse, as bad as hopelessness can possibly be it was that severe for me. I just cried in the bathtub most of the time until after four days of this I decided it was not getting any better and I'd rather be dead, yes dead, than live another day in this much pain and I so I started back. I began thinking maybe I could start my pain meds again, that way I could get off the suboxone, lol, did not work. I was surprised by how tolerant I had become to pain meds, after being on them for more than a week without suboxone I realized my tolerance had skyrocketed. Completely out of suboxone and back on pain meds at a ridiculous amount I felt very overwhelmed and I feared accidental overdose. My poor husband is all I can say. We are or were both just normal people, I mean I was a cop, he was a marine for 20 years, this does not happen to people like us, right? Wrong. He had to hit the streets big time in our little town to find drug dealers, he did it for me, I want to cry just thinking of it right now, but he found suboxone and I started back after about two weeks. Right back to the drawing board AGAIN. Am I loving recovery or what.
This is when things get really bad, the depression comes back full swing, I was taking cymbalta but it wasn't making things any better, I think it didn't work because of the suboxone, but that is just my opinion and obviously not something I know for a fact. I stopped getting out of bed all together. I lost all enthusiasim for life. I can't describe in words the effect this had on my family. I think my daughter felt it the most, I always spent so much time with her, she could not understand why I could not get out of bed, take a shower, leave my house for gods sake. I didn't go anywhere. I was just suddenly so tired all the time, no explanation. And who can help with this? Nobody. Who cares? Nobody. It's not like you can walk into your physicians office and explain this, I mean what can they do? Most don't have a license to prescribe it and so therefore they aren't going to know how to deal with it. All the docs that do in my area don't take insurance at all, you file your own claim, well with my insurance they have to be a provider or mine will not pay. And despite my argument with the insurance company they have refused to pay the scripts.
I finally accepted the fact I have to get off of it, and I have to do it without a doctor's help. I have seen psyciatrist but no luck there either. In my experience, they don't fully understand this drug, I'm sure some do but where are they? Not here in my town.
I was taken off Lyrica in the beginning by the dr that prescribed the suboxone, he said not to take it, he never said why but i felt like maybe he felt it was something to be abused, not sure. I never viewed it that way.
I have recently started taking my Lyrica and I have discovered that it helps tremendously with the w/d symptoms I feel from suboxone. With the help of Lyrica I have managed to come way down on my suboxone, I am only taking it when I feel the w/d really kicking in, that light head or dizziness it causes and I only take as much as I need to stop that feeling, at this point it's about 2 mg's-5 mgs every 2-3 days. I am also taking my husbands ADHD meds, and no, I don't have that condition at all but it is helping me with my low to null energy level. I have found that I am having to continuously increase my Lyrica, but I don't care, I know it's because my w'ds from suboxone are getting worse and the Lyrica's ability to mask is threatened by it. It's not a real big deal considering the theraputic dose is around 300-600 mgs and I'm only taking 75 2x daily right now.
I just really thought the OP was getting a hard time for expressing her feelings, which are obviously going to be strong. When you go through something like this it's all consuming. I know people do love suboxone, but you do not know what tomorrow may bring and hearing from people like me or OP might help someone prepare for what could very well happen to any of us on this drug at any time. I was happy on it for several months before this happened to me. My accusations toward suboxone are that while it can be a wonderful thing in aiding in recovery it can also be a drug that can cause depression, severe depression in some people and don't expect quitting this drug to be a walk in the park like some have reported, expect anything and I mean ANYTHING. Suicidal thoughts, yes! It can def happen. I vouch. I am NOT someone who would ever think that way, during my career in law enforcement I have seen many suicides, up close and person, investigated them, and during the process tried to understand what could ever make someone feel that helpless, I would occasionally mention to other officer's that if they ever found me that way they better launch a full investigation because someone has done this to me, I love life too much. Now, I understand all to well. I know what it feels like to not want to go on and I never want to be there again. It took everything I have to talk myself into believing the future held more promise.
I just wanted to post my thoughts on this here because I defend this posters rights to post whatever they are feeling/thinking during their time of recovery from suboxone.
I am new here, yes, and I can tell you all that I do not believe everything I hear, I don't think she said anything wrong. People can post statistics all day long, who really gives a crap? I don't, I care about what's happening to ME! If someone feels the urge to post statistics I don't assume it to be fact because I read it here, I just think that person is trying to further their own argument to prove there own perspective, it's all a result of the way they are feeling it's not the die hard truth. These are obviously just people, nobody is claiming to be a professional on the subject so you have to use your own intelligence. I'm just saying people don't get so worked up because you see someone post something that is not a proven fact, people of average intelligence know this already without you pointing it out. Everyone is just so defensive. I would have much rather just heard the uncensored experience of this poster than hearing everyones opinions on whether it was actually a proven fact, it seemed like all the angry defenders just wanted to turn the conversation from the OP feelings to a debate from the very first poster! All that drama about the OP'er is not going to make it, I mean who does that? Why not just let the person post for a while so we could just hear their experience instead of pointing out that they wanted them to be truthful if they failed???WTF? Where's the support in that? Really, really rubbed me wrong and put a bad taste in my mouth right away about the way this forum was going to function. It just floors me that people, human beings can be so thoughtless.
I am going to continue on my road to recovery, just like the OP, I know that suboxone is here, I now know exactly how it works and I don't give a rats but what the "statistics" are, I am going to make it. No Nay sayer can stop me from fighting for my life, pre-drug abuse, back. Anyone can do this, anyone can. If all of us on suboxone were swept off to an island with no drugs we would discover just like Dorathy we always had the ruby slippers. So people, please, lets inspire, inspire, inspire. No harm will ever come from just telling people they can do it! Ignore what you believe to be false, I'm sure the monitor will delete what is not appropriate, everything else just take it for what it's worth, consider the sourse, if it's someone in recovery from suboxone they are going to be for opinionated, just give support, this is hard enough without negativity.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Hi Beautiful,

I just read your post, twice actually, and I sincerely want to tell you that I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult time trying to get off Suboxone. I have read many stories of people struggling to get off Sub, so I do not doubt your story at all.

I believe the people that were responding to the original poster of this were mostly concerned that she was still taking xanax, at high doses I believe and were concerned mostly about that. I think she was also taking soma, and everyone was quite concerned that even though she was off the Suboxone, that she may still have some huge problems once she tried to get off these other drugs.

But, back to you, I wish I had an answer for you to make this easier for you. It seems like you have had several problems right from the beginning. I am from Canada, where healthcare is free, and my insurance covers most of my prescription costs. I have read SO many horror stories of doctors that do not accept insurance, and insurance not covering the costs of scripts and I really do not understand it. I mean, that is what insurance is for and I do Not know how doctors can get away with this. It truly boggles my mind that in the United States, where I believe all Health Care should be the best in the world, it's not even close to being that, or even fair. I hope with the health care reform, which I must admit, do not really know anything about except that there is one, that health care will be better, but I sort of doubt that.

I do honestly believe though, if you could find a doctor that was covered by your insurance, and was a good Sub doctor, that you could get off Suboxone properly with a good taper. Most people with horror stories like yours, have the problems you do with insurance or not having a good doctor that know what he/she is doing with Sub.

Again, I really am sorry that you are having so many problems getting off the Sub. I have heard that Lyrica helps with withdrawals and I am happy to hear that it is helping you. I also know that Clonidine works well, so you could also ask your doctor for that. As for the Cymbalta, I have heard both good and bad results with that, but like any antidepressant, most people have to try several different ones to find the right fit. I know I have had to be on SSRI's most of my life, and have tried just about all of them. I think Celexa had the least amount of side effects, but Paxil worked the best for me, so maybe you just need to find one that works for you.

Sub has saved my life, opiates were literally killing me. I have not tried to taper Sub yet, as I am just getting stable on it, so I have no experience trying to get off it. I do have a decent doc, although I must admit I am his only Sub patient so also his guinea pig, so I am basically on my own as far as dosing, etc. I pretty much rely on this forum for all of my information and so far, they have been an awesome support and very helpful. I also know that when and if I am ready to taper off it, they will be there to help me do that. Several people on this forum have tapered off Sub and have done so successfully, but they have also done it very slowly. If you would like to see how they have done it, it's under the Tapering title.

I hope that you stick around and get help from the people here who have tapered off Sub successfully. It can be done without all the problems that you are currently experiencing. I beleive if you give this forum a chance, you will get as much help and support that I have.

Ginger


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:58 am 
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Ginger,
I'm glad your doing well on the Suboxone. If you haven't been on them long then start your tapper as soon as you think you can, what's your goal? I don't know what the magic time frame is, really that whole principal makes no since to me whatsoever. Mine was six months and it's been 17 and I'm fighting my A$$ off for my life back. I honestly do not know what the difference is between 2 months, 6 months, 1 year, 20 years, what is suppose to change? I mean I made up my mind long before entering that recovery clinic that I did not want to continue life with prescription drugs, so that decision was made, so what does that time frame really mean? I don't know. Wish I had asked, lol. But seriously, friendly advise, if I had to do it all over again with the suboxone, I would have maintained a much lower dose, even though I felt the cravings for paid meds because the fact was, I wasn't in w/d while on suboxone and I needed to learn to live with the cravings anyway, so no point in upping the dose all the time. I would have never taken more than 2mgs in one day, ever. I mean ultimately we all seem to fight like crazy to be able to lower our suboxone level so why not just keep it low to begin with? It's just a really hard drug to get off of, words can't describe the hell I've suffered. It didn't cure anything. When I finally do get myself off this drug I expect the same world will be out there that was there before I started it. I have talked to people who have taken this drug for 5 years or more and I know they would change it too.
As for the OP, I don't think challenging her decision to take zanax or soma is appropriate to do, those drugs help with suboxone w/d, which some people posting on this forum apparently have no clue as to how extremely painfully difficult it is for some people. I don't know the OP'er at all, never one conversation but I believe she knows exactly what her threats are and she's making her decisions based on what she knows, what she's been told to do and her belief in herself. Nobody needs to point out what type drugs are potential for abuse to a woman in drug recovery who just went through rapid detox, I think she's figured that much out on her own.
I wish you the best, I wish everyone here that's still on this medication the very best possible outcome ever.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:02 am 
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Ginger,
I'm glad your doing well on the Suboxone. If you haven't been on them long then start your tapper as soon as you think you can, what's your goal? I don't know what the magic time frame is, really that whole principal makes no since to me whatsoever. Mine was six months and it's been 17 and I'm fighting my A$$ off for my life back. I honestly do not know what the difference is between 2 months, 6 months, 1 year, 20 years, what is suppose to change? I mean I made up my mind long before entering that recovery clinic that I did not want to continue life with prescription drugs, so that decision was made, so what does that time frame really mean? I don't know. Wish I had asked, lol. But seriously, friendly advise, if I had to do it all over again with the suboxone, I would have maintained a much lower dose, even though I felt the cravings for paid meds because the fact was, I wasn't in w/d while on suboxone and I needed to learn to live with the cravings anyway, so no point in upping the dose all the time. I would have never taken more than 2mgs in one day, ever. I mean ultimately we all seem to fight like crazy to be able to lower our suboxone level so why not just keep it low to begin with? It's just a really hard drug to get off of, words can't describe the hell I've suffered. It didn't cure anything. When I finally do get myself off this drug I expect the same world will be out there that was there before I started it. I have talked to people who have taken this drug for 5 years or more and I know they would change it too.
As for the OP, I don't think challenging her decision to take zanax or soma is appropriate to do, those drugs help with suboxone w/d, which some people posting on this forum apparently have no clue as to how extremely painfully difficult it is for some people. I don't know the OP'er at all, never one conversation but I believe she knows exactly what her threats are and she's making her decisions based on what she knows, what she's been told to do and her belief in herself. Nobody needs to point out what type drugs are potential for abuse to a woman in drug recovery who just went through rapid detox, I think she's figured that much out on her own.
I wish you the best, I wish everyone here that's still on this medication the very best possible outcome ever.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:01 pm 
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Hi again BB,

I hope you are feeling a little better today! I really am sorry that you are having so many problems getting off Sub, but I honestly do think if you had a GOOD Sub doctor that knew what he was talking about and explained everything about Sub right from the beginning, you would not be experiencing the difficulties you currently are.

Have you tried to find a new doctor that will except your insurance? It is possible that there are new ones in your area now, and you can find them through the NAABT doctor locater site, and I believe there are others. I hope someone that has the links to the doctor matching directory comes along soon and posts the links for you.

As for my plan with Sub, I know I will be on Sub for at least another year. Sub also works really well for my pain issues, so I am in no hurry to get off. Oxycontin was killing me! Oxycontin made me suicidal! Oxycontin left me so depressed that I no longer wanted to live! I could NOT get off opiates after trying over and over again for years. Sub SAVED MY LIFE! So, my plan is to stay on Sub as long as I need to. I also know that Sub alone will not cure my addiction and I also have to work on all the reasons I got addicted to opiates in the first place. I know if I don't do anything and everything I can to work on changing how I think, how I live, that Sub alone is worthless, except to keep me out of withdrawals and stop my cravings.

What dose of Sub are you currently on? If you would like help from people on this forum, I am sure they would be more than happy to help you taper off Sub, without all the pain you are currently experiencing. Many people here have done that, and I know, that if it is done properly, you can do this successfully. I really hope that you stick around and let us help you get off Sub. It's unfortunate that this thread was the first one you read on this forum. There was a lot more going on with this OP, than what you read here. I don't really want to get in to it, but she was also posting on another forum, completely bashing everyone here and also contradicting several things she said on this site. I'm not saying any more about it, because I want to keep the focus on you, and how we can help YOU get off Sub.

So, let us know if you want our help and I promise you, even though I have not yet tried to taper so don't have any personal advice to help, but there are several others here that I know would be more than happy to help you and support you to get through this!

Ginger


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:52 pm 
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Hi broken,

First I want to point out that there were some very offensive comments by the original poster of this thread that were edited or deleted, so it's unfortunate that you're reading it and getting a skewed perspective. This is the best, most supportive, empathetic, and compassionate group of people I've ever come across online. I would encourage you to read other posts.

Some of the posts that might behoove you to read are the ones under the section "Stopping Suboxone". There are numerous people who have gone off of suboxone. Some jumped off at a higher dose and still reported their w/d were less that full agonists. Others - and this is what's recommended - did a long, slow taper and had very minimal w/d symptoms.

You also might want to read this post here by Dr. Junig: http://www.suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1837

I'm sorry you're having a rough time, but it IS possible to come off of suboxone if it's done correctly - again, a long, slow taper. Remember, when we started sub we were already addicted to opiates. Personally, I've been on sub for over a year and a half and will be for the long haul. I also have two chronic pain conditions (fibro is one of them) and I can never go back to full agonists for chronic pain, so I'm left with few options. The suboxone (along with a muscle relaxer) usually makes my pain tolerable, although I do have some flare-ups still. But I'm not suffering the kind of pain where I end up sobbing hysterically anymore.

I wish you the best and truly hope you will check out the rest of the forum. This is a great group of people! Take care.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:47 am 
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BeautifulBroken,

I agree with the others that you need to get a Sub Dr and do a long slow taper.

You seem like a strong person. You have survived so many struggles in your life. You will get through this one also. Keep your head up relief will come soon.


I don't think taking your husbands ADHD meds is a good idea those are highly addictive their self. I know they make you feel better and at ease but didn't your drug of choice do that also in the beginning? Just don't get caught up in another addiction. You don't want to take a step back. Keep stepping forward sunshine.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:26 am 
Hi BeatutifulBroken and welcome. I have to say it breaks my heart that you are caring for 4 kids, two with serious medical conditions and your sub doc wants you to drive 45 min EVERY WEEK for a urine! That is unreasonable. I see my sub doc only once a month (and he doesn't take urines). Recently, I have been having insurance trouble and he is allowing me to skip a month. I mean, honestly, for a patient who is stable long term like you, they should cut you some slack. I really hope that you can find someone else who can help you with your taper and be considerate of your other responsibilities.

Also, while I have also experienced some lethargy, apathy and lack of motivation that I believe is at least in part from long term sub use, I think that what you are describing -being debilitated to the point of not being able to get out of bed - sounds like major depression (I have experienced that, too). A decent doctor or psychologist should be able to treat you for that, whether you are on sub or not. I would not try to taper yourself off of sub without simultaneously seeking treatment for the depression. I really don't know anything about Cymbalta, but I am on Lexapro, and I believe a couple of other people on this forum are also on it, or other SSRI's like Prozac. I know it's hard to get help when you're feeling this way, espcially when you have already been let down by other doctors --maybe a friend or familiy member can recommend another doctor, or help out with the kids? Please don't try to solve all of this by yourself.

I'm sorry you're first experience of this forum was on this particular thread. The original poster did post some seriously inappropriate stuff, which was deleted by the moderater, so it leaves the rest of the posts sounding unnecessarily harsh. You might want to start a new thread. There is lots of support here, and many people have found that just typing out their progress is helpful. There are several long threads in the Stopping Suboxone section that are really journals of people's experience. I wish you the best of luck, and I hop you will let us know how you are doing.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Hi beautifullybroken -

Wow, what a story.

I agree with the other members that this thread is a tough one to start out reading. It certainly is not representative. But, then again, it is what it is.

As for support, there are a couple schools of thought.

1- Is to blindly support anyone, their method, legal or not, just keep saying - keep being strong, keep going.

2- Is to try and be honest with that person. That doing things illegally, or bucking best practices usually have predictable results. This is hard because to be honest with people - often comes across as negative.

In your case I have to ask:

If you blinked and suboxone was gone. You had no opiate dependency. You had no cravings. BUT, you still have fibromyalgia and substantial pain, then what? What is the best solution given you have chronic pain, and the massive challenges with your children (by the way you are an admirable person)?

The reason I ask this question is that most people need to look to solutions. They find that doctors do not always have all the answers. They need to do their own research.

Fibromyalgia pain is poorly understood. Opiates often times make the pain worse. There is some evidence that pain clinics are now using suboxone/subutex in concert with muscle relaxers to provide some relief.

If that is not desired by a patient - and opiates are out (for any number of reasons) - then what is left?

Most people have taken Lyrica, neurointin, soma - or other muscle relaxants, any host of nsaids, gabritril, cymbalta, savella, and on and on. Most, sadly, do not find that much relief.

I am concerned for you with suboxone. In your bad experience with it - where do you go? Do you have a plan? Do you have a target? Do you have resources around you to make a plan?

I'm a 20 year veteran of this with my family. The worst thing that can happen is a person thinking if I just do 'this' (like get of suboxone) - then everything will be fine. ??? It's my experience that a person needs to think more concretely. Like:

I need to get off of all opiates, suboxone, and take lyrica and nsaids. I need to engage with my rheumatologist and find the latest non-opoid pain solutions. I probably need to investigate acupuncture, therapy, and other methods of treatment.

I pray you have a plan. Anger against one drug - like you have against suboxone - will eventually pass. You will find a way to get off. What then? Will your pain go away? Will you be able to keep up the pace required of you as a mom?

Just some thoughts.

--LD


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:53 am 
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LD -

I think you have some good points. Most of us look at life in terms of things we DON'T want instead of what we DO want. i.e. I DON'T want to be dependent on suboxone instead of I DO want a happy, healthy, productive, life.....and then looking for what provides that for us.

For me, I quit suboxone at one point because I was looking at what I DIDN'T want. I didn't want to be dependent on it. I didn't want to keep dealing with my crazy sub doc. I didn't want to keep feeling like some useless drug addict. I didn't want to upset my husband.

I got off suboxone and then what? Well.......I was unhappy. I was tired. I had no motivation. I was in a lot of pain with no options because I can't take pain killers. I had never really thought about what I DID want. Getting of sub FORCED me to think of what I did want. What I want is to have manageable pain levels, a productive work life, to feel free. Sub gives me that and I decided to go back on it. I am truly happy and live a blessed life. I have what I want and no longer worry about being dependent on something. I have stopped focusing on the negative and have started looking at the positive and what I DO have instead of what I DON'T have. It has made a huge difference for me.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:44 am 
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LD

"1- Is to blindly support anyone, their method, legal or not, just keep saying - keep being strong, keep going."

No, I don't believe you should blindly support someone, their method, legal or not. If you don't have any information on the subject, hence your use of the term "blindly support..." in such a situation as one that you have no knowledge at all it is best to stay out of it and allow posters whom may have experience with the meds/ or what they are trying to do, be the supporter.

"2- Is to try and be honest with that person. That doing things illegally, or bucking best practices usually have predictable results. This is hard because to be honest with people - often comes across as negative."

I seriously could not disagree with you more, I mean, yea, it's a free world, we all have opinions, but I couldn't agree less with this statement and here's why:

Being honest with someone in a situation regarding their attempts to get off this drug should never ever be negative. Why should they be???? Honestly is what we all expect from one another but here's a real kicker, we also expect kindness too. You will find hundreds of different ways to support someone having similar problems as you in a positive way, well sometimes you may not be in the same boat but a familiar one, try to be kind to people all the time.

I have this story I must tell :D
Okay, so it's 1996 and I'm working for a Jail in South Carolina. I was put on a temporary assignment to fetch the booking records from the night before and bring them to the Judge every morning. Well well well, there was a new night guard working the Booking desk and normally the guard would have completed them and have them ready for pick up, not this guy, he took his freaking merry sweet time! It drove me nuts, I couldn't figure him out, he was always giving me a hard time, we went back and forth for about a month before our first real blow out, lots of foul words went a flying and I stomped back off to my office angrily, thinking to myself, "Dude, WTF is his problem with me???" Now, I suspected he disliked me only because I was white, because I had heard that rumored about him a lot and he was a young black man and a couple of white officers had been picked for promotion over him, so I thought, "well, maybe, maybe that's why he doesn't like me...cause I'm WHITE! WTF, I don't care if I'm purple, I was ALWAYS so nice to him! Well, and I am getting to my point I swear LOL, okay so, after the big blow out I was sitting at my desk, later that morning and the phone rang, I saw "booking" come up on the caller-id and I thought oh sh$% not AGAIN! Well, I answered the phone, "Hey" I heard on the other end, "I've finished your books for you if you have time to get back down here, or I could bring them to you" OMG who am I talking to? (checking the Caller ID again...yes it's him?? Being kind to me? that's a first. Then he say's, "Hey Jen", I say, "yes Drake" and he replies "I just wanted to apologize for the way I've been coming across to you". I'm thinking, "hugh?" Then he say's something to me that I never have forgotten and I never will, he said, "You wanna know the real reason I'm calling you?" I said, "Why?" He said, "Because what if this place burns down and the only two people left alive here are me and you? What If I become stuck down here and there ain't nobody else to pull me out but you?" I'm thinking, okay so where is he going with this??? Then he say's, "I just want to know that I didn't make such a jerk out of myself that you wouldn't pull me out of here, that you would still save my life." I was really shocked at what I heard from this guy. I said, "You know what Drake, that's a really cool perspective, that hadn't crossed my mind, but of course I would save your life, I like have to because I had to swear in remember...J/K but a lot changed since that day, I started looking at everyone different. Walking down the hall's thinking "I wonder if she would help me in a hostage situation? Or would he go to fight for me, as if I were his sister? Well, Since then I've learned the trick to that, you have to be good to people and you have to try your hardest to treat them like they are your family. This may have come a bit easier for me living in a military family with my husband and kids for a lot of years, and nobody had family nearby so we only had each other. I just want everyone to know that people don't remember the everyday negativity, they remember what changes their lives and if your real point of coming to these forums regularly is to give help to someone else then maybe you should start critiquing yourself first. Sometimes as humans we allow ourselves to slip, forgetting were all brothers and sisters out here in this big world.

"n your case I have to ask:

If you blinked and suboxone was gone. You had no opiate dependency. You had no cravings. BUT, you still have fibromyalgia and substantial pain, then what? What is the best solution given you have chronic pain, and the massive challenges with your children (by the way you are an admirable person)?"

Okay, I will gladly answer, it's an easy one! :)
With one swish of a wand it appears that Suboxone nor opiate dependency has ever happened to me, I am given a new start! Oh, I so wish this was real!, Anyway, so I still have my fibro, and yes my fibro is painful, but if your point was to see if I'd want to go back to pain meds? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I'm not gluten for punishment, as my mom use to say, I do have half a brain up in here, lol. Seriously, I would never take the route I'm on EVER again, the ONLY time I would ever use narcotic pain relief would be during end stage life, according to many doctors I see these days they say that's the ONLY time it should ever be given due to it's strong likelihood of destroying life quality with addiction. What did you think I would say? "Give me another percocet, let me start this all over again!!! I don't know what kind of pain you are in, I have never felt much of any pain relief from suboxone, In my original post I made a comment that my dr that prescribed suboxone took me off of Lyrica, the only meds that have ever helped my fibro, I'm not sure why he did it, I never believed them to be abusable but he did and as a result I've endured a lot of pain while taking Suboxone. More than you know. In fact I had a horrible miscarriage while on suboxone, then pain was unbearable and the only med I was getting was suboxone, it sucked really really bad but I survived. I give the suboxone a ZERO for helping me with the cramping pains and back pains that occured with miscarriage. So, like I said, Idk what your suffering from but I find it highly unlikely that suboxone is the BEST thing to treat it with. Do you have any idea how many non narcotic pain relievers that are out there, you said yourself narcotics don't work that well anyway, right.

I just hope we all find our answers. What works for me may not work for you and visa versa and that's okay, we're all different, that's for sure.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:16 pm 
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That is a very good philosophyl to live by and people like you make the world a better place. I do not think it is a blanket way to treat people, there is a time and place IMO. I always try to practice positive reinforcement when dealing with others and while most of the time it is the harder way to handle things, I think it almost always gets better results in the long run. It's easier to yell at an employee when they screw up rather than praise them for what is being done right. It's easier to smack your dog for going in the house rather than praise him for going in the yard and I believe in "time outs" for my son over spankings or even yelling and screaming. But... We are dealing with a life threatening disease IMO. We are all adults and some of us don't need to be comforted and agreed with at this stage in our life. In these cases I thinks it's harder to be honest with someone, we are risking ending a friendship or hurting a family member or just not being liked by an individual. IMO caring for another and honestly loving a person we must risk those things sometimes in order to hopefully help them. I absolutely need people in my life who will be honest with me and point out when I'm at fault or hurting myself. Bruised egos are easier to repair than what can happen to an active addict. It's always the harder of the two but I will always try to be honest with people I care for. Most will thank you over time, I know I am greatful for those who do the same for me. Like I said I don't see it as a black and white issue. I've seen too many young addicts die and that's hard to live with, knowing or having a feeling they were screwing up and not calling them out on it. Again, I do admire people like you and how you treat people and I don't say that that to be sarcastic, I'm just not as optimistic when dealing with this disease as I used to be.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:03 pm 
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I am glad to hear that the OP is doing well with their recovery and that rapid detox was for them. I haven't posted in this forum for awhile now, but I do lurk a lot, so I hope that counts as not having disappeared forever. Hehe. The stories and experiences I read about on this forum I learn a lot from and so thank you OP and everyone else for what you've all posted so far.


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 Post subject: Suboxone worked for me
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:04 am 
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I would like to pass on a little differant story than most of you who got hooked on some type of drug and tried many things to get off. I was prescribed by my pain Doctor Morphine 40 mg a day for 3 months when it quit working for my pain, so they swithched me to Duragesic patches which are 8 X the amount of heroin as I am told. They started me with 25 mg per patch that lasted 2 days and I stayed with 25 mg for 2 months until my body started to get use to it. They the up my dose to 50 mg every 2 days for about 3 months, then 75 mg every 2 days for 3 months, and last 100 mg every 2 days for about 2 months. The problem was my body was getting use to it and needed more and more so they kept increasing my dosage. It would work for a few months then I would start having wd's and need to increase. After about a year of hell with clinic they then told me that I was addicted and either had to go up on dosage or taper down to get off. But they also recommended suboxone therapy because it would be easier to taper and get off slowly. I had to be in moderate to severe wd's to start my first dosage of suboxone. That was the worst torture ive been thru in my life for 24 hours. I felt like climbing the walls, pulse was racing at 150 min, throwing up, cold sweats, hot sweats, and my blood pressure was 110 over 160 before I took my first dose. My doctor made me wait that long. 24 hrs. After taking the 8 mg suboxone finally within 30 minutes I was normal. I also wanted to kill myself during those wd's. It's terrible. But finally starting subs, I was told it would be 1 year of taper and I would be free of all. I did 8 mg twice a day for 1 month then she dropped me to 4 mg twice a day. She wanted me on that for 4 months. So on my 6 month she dropped me to 4 mg once a day for 2 months. Then we went to 2 mg once a day for 2 more months. She wanted me to stay for another 2 months. But I cheated and started to break 2 mg in half and went a month without her knowing it, then I broke the 2 mg pill in 1/4's and went 2 weeks. Then i started to just break a tiny piece maybe it was 1/8 mg for 1 week and decided to stop completely Jan 1, 2010. Made it my new year resolution. Its been 10 days and I feel totally normal now. I went through about 3 days of dirrhea feeling sick, couldn't sleep, and couldn't be still. But about the 4th day I started to feel better, and by 10 days Im the happiest person in the world now. It wasnt as bad as I thought and read about. My doctor doesnt know I stopped. I have to make an appointment soon to let her know. I was suppose to get a new prescription next week and see how much I was to go down. Shes probally going to be mad, but I wanted off. If you taper slowly and gradual its easier than you might think. Hopefully this helps someone out there. Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:47 am 
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Boxingofficial - thanks for sharing your story. If you haven't started your own thread about it, I would highly recommend you do so. There's a topic called "Bupe in the rear view mirror". That would be the perfect place to share it. Your experience could help many people.

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