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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:42 pm 
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Now THAT....was a BEAUTIFUL post!!!!!!!! Perfect. THANK YOU! That is awesome. Just awesome. I am glad you have some kind of recovery plan in place. I would like to hear more about that.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:52 am 
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Starting to sound like a cat fight in here!!!!!! U did say you weren't going to read this post anymore jackcrack. I just think you two women will never get along something is very conflicting with you two


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:16 am 
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Actually, I believe what I said was that I didn't care about the rapid detox anymore and then went on to explain why which had everything to do with her trashing suboxone. I did not say I wasn't going to read this thread because I know I will. However, when I come back and now she is actually writing about her actual experience ABSENT the suboxone trashing, it is much better. I indicated this by my last post.

In terms of me annihilating you, I certainly don't like the antisuboxone stuff and have tired of it. Outside of that, I have simply been honest regarding my concerns and some of the contradictions I have seen in the information provided. I could instead sit here and just say positive things but that wouldn't be very real of me and it wouldn't be very realistic to expect people to agree with everything you are saying. I am not the only one who has noted inconsistencies which left unaddressed, could actually harm you. They aren't going to harm me.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:16 am 
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I have no hard feelings toward JackCrack. I just don't understand the inconsistencies you are referring to. Is it that I didn't explain my drug problem correctly? There is a reason for that. Maybe I was in denial. Not about my choices, but about why I got onto Sub, with oxi's, from a low dose of Methadone. It kind of pissed me off. Especially after finding out that I could have just been put on Suboxone at the low dose I was at without the Oxi's. Which, by the way, was a much stronger opiate that got me addicted in the first place. I questioned my Dr's. reasoning behind this. In fact he said to me "I have done this for patients before, but most don't come back". Give an addict a full bottle of oxi's, pretty sure they WONT come back. But I did. I hated them. I felt like I was taking a HUGE step backwards. I couldn't wait to get back to his office and start Suboxone. I trusted him. He, from the start, has not been honest with me about this medication. When my friend went to him desperate after kicking it asking what was wrong (she thought she was permanently damaged) he told her the truth. That is when I heard it. From her. He would ask me if I was speaking to her (which is technically Dr. patient confidentiality breaking) I would say no, and act stupid. My instinct at that point was survival mode. Figure it out later. I did ask why she had such a hard time weening, and he told me that she had underlying issues that were not being corrected. What? I went in there for 15 minutes once a month, like all of you do, to speak to someone that didn't give a shit about me as a person. Tell him how I am doing, get my script and a lecture about the xanax (even though he was filling it) and leave. Being on it for three years, which he suggested, then just caring about weening off of the xanax and not the sub, I don't know. Seemed odd. My anxiety was real. But he didn't care to start weening me. I asked him if I should start. His answer, "Why stop if it's working?" That is true, but not what I signed up for and he knew it. The first day I went into his office.
People think I am angry? Well, yes. I landed a liar as a psychiatrist. Never really wanting to help me.
The people that wanted to help me were there the entire time. i just didn't reach out to them. Out of shame. I don't know. But I finally broke down and told the people I needed to tell, and they stood behind me. Every step of the way.
And I am very grateful for that.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:40 pm 
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“People think I am angry? Well, yes. I landed a liar as a psychiatrist. Never really wanting to help me.”

AAAHHHHH…..my head is going to explode….seriously, when I read this, I yelled so loud that I scared my cat.

As I understand it, you went to a doctor seeking suboxone (because you were addicted to methadone), and he put you on oxy (which is supposed to be easier to switch to Sub from, as oppsed to methadone….ask the people on the forum who went from methadone to sub about this)…then he put you on suboxone. WHAT A HORRIBLE DOCTOR!!!! :roll:

I have heard you say that he misrepresented the suboxone to you. I don’t know what happened. I wasn’t there. I do know, based on what you said, that he wanted you to taper, and you didn’t. And, as someone who has also tapered, I know that it majorly sucks (although no where near as bad as full agonists), but I didn’t blame my doctor because I was struggling to taper down….that’s all on me….I wouldn’t be in this situation if I hadn’t started taking opiates in the first place…..and the same is true for you.

I know how hard it is to taper off of Suboxone, and I know how hard it is to taper off of Xanax. When I got on Suboxone, I had to stop taking Klonopin….and it wasn’t fun. But, I knew it was necessary. I also just stopped taking Ambien…AFTER 10 YEARS!!! And I am still trying to feel totally normal, after 5 weeks. So, yes, I am familiar with the difficulties of your situation.

We addicts really want to believe that we’re special, that it is harder for us, that we need special consideration….but we’re not!!! While we're on the topic, I really do think that you should try to get off the Xanax asap....when I was working as a student therapist, I saw a lot of people addicted to Xanax with NASTY complications...it is a really helpful and also a really dangerous drug. If you struggle with anxiety, try going on an SSRI (like Effexor or Zoloft)....these medications actually TREAT (instead of masking) anxiety, and (once they start working) are actually more effective.

I think what gets me the most is that, from what I’ve heard, you feel like crap! You keep saying that you feel so bad that you can’t even manage to make it through a whole post, and that your emotions are so raw…and I’ll bet they are, but what did you gain from the rapid detox if you feel so bad? If I stopped taking sub today, I think I would feel the same way in 2-3 days….for free. That’s what I don’t get…what did you gain from the rapid detox? Do you honestly feel like it worked, do you feel like you thought you would, was it worth it? That’s what I would be mad at….the $10,000 dollars.

Look, I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings, and I am sorry if this has turned into a cat fight. I am really frustrated, and I don’t just sit quietly when I feel this way…and maybe I’m not handling this the right way, but this is how I feel…did I mention that my head is going to explode???? :shock:

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Last edited by ene579 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:03 pm 
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I feel the same way Elizabeth does, although I haven't startled my cats or dogs - YET. Elizabeth also brought up a good point ... it is NOT, repeat NOT, unusual for a methadone patient to be put on a short-acting opiate before transitioning to suboxone. It's been discussed on this very forum. Also, your doctor would have been remiss for NOT asking you to taper down on the xanax while on suboxone. That's a very dangerous combination, especially at that high a dose - 4 mg a DAY!! You might want to read one of Dr. Junig's previous blog posts about benzos. He discusses the difference between wanting to get rid of the anxiety and feel normal versus using them to feel relaxed. I highly recommend it.

Also, Sugarcain, I understand you were trying to respond to someone, but all you're doing is continually re-hashing your allegations against your doctor. I believe you were asked to stop harping on that.

As for being a "slave" to suboxone, I don't think I need to add anything to the responses that have already been posted, except to reiterate that such a statement is anti-sub. It puts us in the constant position of having to correct your statements instead of discussing the real purpose of this thread - your experience with rapid detox. Again, please keep the very simple rules of this forum in mind and maybe this thread can stay on track.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:35 pm 
Ene575...You don't have a thing in the world to apologize for! Although I didn't yell when I read Sugarcain's latest post, I did feel like my head was going to explode! Once again, I read, shook my head and rolled my eyes and again, I have concluded that she just doesn't get it.
I'm glad you brought up the fact that her psychiatrist most likely had her do a short round of oxycodone to ease her transition from Methadone to Suboxone. There is nothing crazy about that. Sugarcain seems to continue to be fixated on believing that her addiction was made worse by her doctors. I don't know how many of us and how many different ways we can tell her that it DOES NOT MATTER what 'flavor' of opiate she was taking that started (or finished) her addiction. YOU'RE BRAIN DOES NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE! As far as full-agonists go...an opiate is an opiate is an opiate! Sure there are differences between them and they all may produce a slightly different effect.....but they are essentially the same. So get off it already! No one crammed any of this down your throat! YOU got addicted to opiates. You're in good company! Just accept accountability, for the love of God, and stop blaming your doctors!
FYI - The Soma you're being prescribed along with the fact that you're on Xanax and that you were (maybe still are) on meds for sleep and for nausea (a lot of which are sedating) tells me that a great majority of any w/d symptoms you might be having are pretty masked. Soma is quite habit-forming and packs a pretty big punch in terms of how it alters the way you feel. If you don't believe me, do some research. It is rarely prescribed anymore because there are better muscle relaxants with a lower side effect profile. I'm a little concerned about that, especially in light of how much Xanax you take.
In any case, you may be off opiates right now, but you're a far cry from being off of all mind and mood altering drugs. But I imagine that doesn't matter to you because you're not 'addicted' to Xanax... :wink:
There is no doubt in my mind that you just wasted 10 grand. It won't be long before you're on some other site bashing the Hell out of Rapid Detox and carrying on about how you were "lied to" by all these evil people at the clinic you went to. I am so glad that I don't have to be mad anymore. I'm sad....sometimes downright heartbroken about what happened to me, what opiate addiction stole from me. But I figured out a long time ago that I really had no one to blame but myself and the disease of addiction. I spent a little bit of time being angry at my doctor for continuing to Rx me pain pills when I had no proof that I needed them anymore. But I quickly moved past it......He was only trying to help me. He believed my lies. I wish he had called me on my BS, sure. But again.....it was MY fault not his.
Whatever.....you're not taking a single thing that I or anyone else tells you to heart. I don't why we bother anymore. I guess because most all of here are very caring, empathetic individuals who want so badly for you to 'get it.' But you don't.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Sugar just accept the fact that your a drug addict and you can't change that no matter how much money u spend no matter how many people u blame for making your addiction worse. Just accept and move on that's the first step.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Hi Everyone -

I think it's awesome that everyone cares so much on this forum.

Passion is what drives us to help each other, and that is worth a lot.

Sugarcain, I understand your position - your thinking that you are not an addict. You admit that you are an addict, but when you post things, they contradict your statements.

What I think is most valuable is that we see compassion on all parties. I find that convincing someone of something - is like trying to strap your sandals on someone else. They don't fit very well and are uncomfortable.

For anyone reading through this thread that is new - it seems important to me that you take into account the different places people are when they look for solutions to their opiate disease.

Most people fight the label of addict - as did I. We try with all compassion to say - hey - here are the facts and 'do you get it?'... but at the end of the day - our attempt to strap sandals on someone usually fail.

I appreciate sugarcain posting the 'facts' about the rapid detox process. I don't like the banter about the evils of suboxone - but I guess she has that right. Just not here - as it's not part of the agreement when you become a member. Facts work, simple bias or hatred is better shared on subsux or other websites.

Still, without sugarcain posting (the factual parts) about rapid detox, many people like me might be thinking it's a silver bullet - why doesn't everyone do it? It's obvious from the postings, that for someone who wants to get over a hump - maybe skip the cold-turkey first hit feelings - there may be some benefit. Naturally, once you go through that - and start taking the blocker - you are on you way to being opiate free.

For new folks, there is a difference between being opiate free and free from addiction. Suboxone is a good medication for most of us to utilize as a tool to get off of full opiate drugs. It gives us a clear head to formulate a plan to either stay on a maintenance dose, or to look to a taper in the future.

Being a slave to any chemical is a bummer. Still, it's hard to not mix up reality from fiction. Reality - for post Rapid Detox visit is that you are on another chemical to block opiates. Why? To prevent relapse? If it worked so perfectly, who would need a blocker? Thus, it's obvious that it does what it does - but it doesn't cure anything. Maybe some people - like sugarcain need that structure to start down a path to get off of opiates. I may disagree (and I do) with the potential for long term success - but there are always exceptions to the rule.

I try not to cheer for failure. I wish sugarcain the best. I'm a realist, though, that for me and the vast majority of us, rapid-detox will just help us skip some of the initial withdrawal symptoms compared to a cold turkey approach, and provide a structured program to keep taking blockers for a time. The notion appears to be that during that 6 months of blockers, a person will get the appropriate support system in place to stay opiate free.

The real challenge is that most people who don't think they are addicts, don't need support. Thus rapid-detox is just a way to be opiate free - take blockers - and then later relapse because most don't think they need support. Without support, meetings, places like this forum, a huge percentage of us would not last a month or two past the last dose of blockers. Maybe sugarcain will be the exception, or will be directed to support groups and therapy (sounds like that is happening) - and by a round-a-bout method will get the support and succeed.

Rapid-detox is 'what it is.' Sugarcain helped me see it for what it is. I don't think I'll try and save up $10K to skip a few days of withdrawal. I'll personally work a taper program - and if that program ultimately involves some sort of blocker later - so be it. If in some wierd twist of fate, that tapering slooooowly acts like 'cold turkey' I'll make decisions then. The evidence seems to be overwhelming that most of us can taper slowly with minimal discomfort. For now, I'll stay with those odds. That's me.

Hope this is an possible objective view of this thread. Our sandals aren't fitting very well - and sugarcain may decide to join a different 'hate suboxone forum.' I hope she can stay here and contribute as it makes sense without blame and angst. If not, I wish you well sugarcain.

--LD


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:31 pm 
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Well said LatheDude. I agree that being opiate free does not mean free from addiction nor does it equal recovery. There was a time when I would have said it was the same. I know better now. My sincere hope for everyone is that though we may choose different paths all will lead to the road of recovery.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:23 pm 
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I must not be getting my point across. I don't hate Suboxone. I hate how I was put on it and not taken care of by a GOOD Dr. I want to make that perfectly clear. I appreciate the last post. It was not filled with more accusations, but with compassion. Something else I didn't get from my Dr. I don't blame my Dr. I put it under my tongue willingly, but with a huge misconception. He told me NO withdrawal. Easy to ween. In my experience, because he started me on such a high dose for a long time, ( He told me that 3 years had an 87% success rate) weening was a struggle. I would feel good for a few days, and then BOOM. Felt like shit.
As far as SubSux, it no longer exists. In fact, I tried to Google "Suboxone Recovery" and they are ALL Pro Sub.
I wish people would just TRY to understand what I have been through. I lost my mother to Methadone at the age of 57. My boss that was dear to me at 46. I wanted sobriety and felt I had no way out.
Maybe Rapid Detox is not for everyone. But I am GLAD I did it. My low energy is coming from no opiates in my system. I was on opiates and replacement therapy, which is the same thing, for so long that my body is just trying to regulate right now. I am not used to being opiate free. I have to adapt. And I will.
I want nothing more to be clean and sober. I have lost a lot of friends to overdoses. I am losing a friend to terminal Cancer. I actually look at addiction like a Cancer. Except there is remission. There is RECOVERY.
Again, thanks for that last post. It really meant a lot.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:05 pm 
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“I hate how I was put on it and not taken care of by a GOOD Dr. I want to make that perfectly clear. I appreciate the last post. It was not filled with more accusations, but with compassion. Something else I didn't get from my Dr.”

:evil:

AAAHHHH…there went my head. Sugar, I am sure you are a really sweet person, but, girl, you are driving me crazy!!!! I really think that you only want to hear from people who will compliment you and tell you that your decision way great. To quote "Top Gun" (hey, it’s a modern classic people!!!), “I’m not going to sit here and blow sunshine up your ass”….so, I’m done tying to help you….“Some people, you just can’t reach” (That’s "Cool Hand Luke", an actual classic).

You never did answer anyone’s concerns about the Xanax or the Soma, so I’ll just say (again) that these are just as dangerous as opiates and being addicted (or whatever :roll: ) to benzos is also really hard….so please be careful with those meds.

But, I still am curious about the rapid detox, mostly about how you are feeling, and if you think it was worth the $10,000…or if you think you could have done this by yourself? :?:

BTW….www.subsux.com…type that in the address bar, hit enter, and it will take you to the site…it is most definitely still very active.

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"Don't hope for a life without problems. An easy life results in a judgmental and lazy mind."
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:08 pm 
Elizabeth, I think I love you!! LOL!!
Other than that:
I.....Just.....Don't.....Know.....What......Else....To....Say.....!!
I'll probably think of something tomorrow.....after my head reattaches itself to my body!!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:47 am 
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Sugarcain,

Honesty is compassion.

Dr. Junig was quite honest with me when I got to this site and I hated what he had to say but he saved my life by being so forthright. He had enough compassion for me as an addict and knew my character defects as an addict well enough to point out my faulty thinking and give me the honest truth about where I stood in the world of addiction and in being an addict.

There is a lot of information within this thread and a lot of feedback for you to draw upon. There are some character defects which you possess and are common in addicts. Those defects could very well kill you at some point. I will not point out the inconsistencies again because they are already in this thread. Whether or not you want to hear them is up to you. I understand PAWS and how confusing things are when you are in withdrawal. I understand moodswings.

I really wish you would have spent your $10,000 on an inpatient treatment program because in my opinion, you need some intensive group and one:one therapy. I am not saying that to be mean. I am being honest with you because I think that is what you need even though it may not be what you want. If your insurance covers it, I highly recommend you go. I do not think your aftercare plan is strong enough to carry you through the years. I think the first time you are prescribed painkillers for any injury or illness, you are quite likely to become addicted again.

I am deeply afraid for you. Your situation makes me sad. It might be different if you had a good program in place before the rapid detox and a good support system to return to. If only you had a strong recovery program.

Did the rapid detox people talk to you about this before hand? Did they talk to you about the remission statistics with or without a strong recovery program in place? Did they talk to you about NA/AA meetings? Did they make any recommendations for outpatient care? I am getting angry at the rapid detox center just thinking about it. I think your Psychiatrist actually did right by you overall. I don't think the rapid detox center did. I think your psychiatrist had compassion and care for you. I don't think rapid detox people did. I think the rapid detox people wanted money. I think your psychiatrist wanted to help you and wanted you to live. I don't think you were ready to get off the suboxone based on what you have said and I think your psychiatrist knew that. I also think he was right to recommend you get off the benzo's before going off suboxone.

I do wish you the best.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:31 am 
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I was told to find a duel Psychologist/Psychiatrist. I have not found one yet, but I plan to.
As far as an in patient program. I can't afford to miss any more work. I have a mortgage, a teenage daughter, and a husband, but I am putting me first and my family is very supportive. I have told everyone, including my brother and father. No secrets. I am not hiding anymore.
I take a pill form of Naltrexone (the blocker in Suboxone). I will take that for at least a year.
The fact that you suggest I may die, well that is morose. Maybe true with a lot of people, but I am not going to let this beat me. I am going to take control of MY SOBRIETY. By the horns. It is in my hands now. I have been defeated. Now I feel like my second chance is here.
I was on replacement therapy for a long time. Now my therapy is my oral blocker and a huge support group around me.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:52 pm 
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Sugarcain,

It is morose to suggest you could die but unfortunately, that is your statistical reality. The fact that you are so fearless of that reality and so confident in your future sobriety is what frightens me the most. I would have far more faith in your program if you were saying you were scared. Is it possible you could be done with addiction and never go back? YES. It is possible. I hope that is the case. It just isn't even remotely probable in the long term. The odds are so against you.

I can't believe the rapid detox center didn't talk with you about any of this. But of course they wouldn't because then you might realize before you spent your money that this wasn't going to be easy. Their entire marketing ploy is based on the silver bullet idea. Without that, there is no lure.

A psychologist/psychiatrist is great and is definitely a start, but it seems to me they wanted your money so bad they didn't even care if you lined this up first. They shouldn't even have done the procedure without this in place and with a couple appointments prior to and lined up for after. No wonder Dr. Junig couldn't stomach it.

I was reading today a blog from Dr. Junig and he was saying that most relapses occur when addicts are confident in their sobriety. The level of confidence you have is just frightening. At this point, I hope you are 10 times more stubborn that you appear and that you want to do this just to prove to everyone that it worked because I don't think you have a whole lot going for you in terms of any "better" plan to stay sober. Family is great but families can't cure addicts and they aren't statistically the support system we require to stay clean. You can stop the naltrexone any time you want.

I do support you wanting to be independent of any replacement therapy. I just think going it alone and without a plan is scary and risky. Again, if you acknowledged these risks I would feel better, but it doesn't seem that anyone has really made you aware of the risks except us and you don't seem to be very receptive to that.

Again, I wish you the best. I hope this all works out for you.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:08 am 
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I am a little confused. I thought the point of a detox was to clean your system of dirty drugs (opiates, benzos and such). If you are still taking xanax then your not clean. Matter of fact whenever I was withdrawing from opiates I would take xanax or whatever benzo I could find and would feel much better. So in my opinion of course you don't feel bad your still taking dirty drugs. just wait till you try to stop them. And of course your sleeping well, they have you on soma, a very strong sleep medication.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:39 am 
Roby, Thanks for bringing Sugarcain's other drugs back to everyone's attention. I mentioned it in an earlier post and I think some of the others have as well. But Sugarcain hasn't really acknowledged the issue.
The amount of Xanax alone that she's on is of enough concern, but add to that the Soma.....Holy Cow!! I don't even know how she stays awake! I question her doctor's ethics in prescribing this stuff after Rapid Detox. As I said before......No wonder she's not complaining of much in the way of withdrawals right now.....she's pretty snowed on these other drugs.
Sugarcain....You really need to research your Soma. With your history of taking medications without doing any research and then being very upset at your doctors for getting you hooked on them, I'd think you'd be a bit more careful these days. Soma (carisprodol) is a dangerous drug! It is a muscle relaxant which metabolizes into an old-school tranquilizer called Milltown. Soma is very habit-forming and should certainly not be prescribed to someone who is an opiate addict. There have been many deaths in which this drug played a role.....in conjunction with benzos and/or opiates. The drug has actually been taken off the market in a few European countries and has recently been added to the list of controlled substances in many states in the U.S.
I would bet the 10K you spent on Rapid Detox that if your Soma and your Xanax were taken away from you right now (and if you could be completely honest) that your w/d would be far worse than w/d from a reasonable dose of buprenorphine.
I know I've gotten uglier and uglier as this thread has gone on.....but I agree with Jackcrack when she said that sometimes "honesty is compassion." I just have an overwhelming feeling that your problems go way, way deeper than your opiate receptors. Your lack of insight might be most evidenced by your denial that your very life is at risk because of your addiction........Have you not told us that your own mother lost her life to this disease? I'm worried for your life right now!! You may be 'clean' of opiates but you are so loaded with other respiratory depressants that I'd be scared to let you fall asleep in my presence.
I will again implore you to try and grasp the seriousness of this and get more help asap.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:22 pm 
setmefree- it's interesting what you said about Soma. When I attended NA about 12 years ago, I befriended a nurse who had gotten in trouble because she was addicted to Soma and got caught taking it from the hospital. I think some of the addicts in the program didn't take it seriously - like it wasn't hardcore enough. You mentionned now it's scheduled in a few states. I guess it's more addictive than many people thought back then.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:51 pm 
Also, Sugarcain, you've taken a lot of heat here - I can understand why peoples' buttons were pressed, but I think the more misguided someone seems to be, the more they are probably in need of kindness.

The bottome line is that any detox, slow or rapid, is just the beginning of recovery. The opiates may now be out of the body, but like they say in NA , the recovery isin livng and enjoying life without the use of drugs. It sounds like a simple concept but it is oh, so difficult for those of us used to being under the blanket of narcotics (and other drugs). In addition to your therapy you will need the support of other recovering addicts, and I hope you won't be intimidated from returning here.

I think the reason people react so strongly against rapid detox is that they sell it as an "end all", as if you will be "cured" once you pay your money and go through the treatment. I think you've alread experienced the unreality of that, the raw emotions and the continued need for anti-anxiety meds and sleep aids. It's a long process physically, mentally and emotionally. In time the addict sops laying blame and ultimately takes full responsibility for oneself.

I hope you can find a trusted therapist who can help you through the process of slowly tapering off the benzos. I know that that class of drugs is not conducive at all to getting off of quickly. I wish you health and healing.
Lilly


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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