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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:49 pm 
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I was just asked about the procedure. So I explained it and why I chose to do it. Doesn't the top of this page say "Please show the respect for the decision of others?" I HAVE NOT ONCE said a foul thing to anyone who has posted on my thread. Have only given my opinion. I have a voice. And as I said before I am NOT ANTI-SUB.
As far as the methadone goes, ya, so what? I was avoiding withdrawal. I was scared. From a vicodin withdrawal. I already admitted to that in a post that was deleted.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:57 pm 
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AND OMG. To say that my experience is B.S.? Who are you to say who I am and what I am about? I think that your reply was rude, and uncalled for. I was answering another bloggers question.
JESUS. EVERYONE ON THIS SITE IS CAPABLE OF DOING WHATEVER THEY WANT. As far as my 8mg. Any lower than that and I would feel sick. And it was hell. So I went back up to my original dosage. Sorry you don't care about what I have to say, but some people do. And I do not believe I have broken any rules!!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:06 pm 
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Like I said.....DENIAL....about everything :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Sugarcain,

I warned you on your other thread, and I will say it again here.

It is ok for you to speak about YOUR experience using "I" statements. It is not ok for you to generalize your experience to others.

Please to not make factually inaccurate statements about Suboxone.

Also, we have all heard multiple times that your doctor lied to you, etc. It is time for you to move on. You are upsetting our other members. I have cut you a LOT of slack because I thought your experience with the rapid detox was a valuable one. If you persist in violating the fourm rules you will be banned. Please stop.

If you have any questions regarding what is allowed, please refer to Dr. Juigs recent post on the forum rules. Here's a quote:

Quote:
If you want to share your own negative experiences, speak with the understanding of the facts; as of April 2010, several hundred thousand people around the world have been treated with buprenorphine, or more accurately, high-dose buprenorphine, the phrase that is apparently being used for treatment of opiate dependence, abbreviated 'HDB'. We now have many, many studies looking at every aspect of treatment that a grad student can think of, and the medication has shown itself to be remarkably safe, given that it is used to treat a fatal illness. Compared to chemotherapy, for example, the side effects are pretty low. So if you have a strange side effect, chances are that you are NOT discovering a new form of toxicity. When you present your symptoms, talk in the first person-- the way people talk at AA meetings. For example, instead of saying 'you really should do so and so', say 'I don't know about you, but here is MY experience.'


If you have any questions about this warning, take it to PM with me or another mod. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:46 pm 
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I have stayed out of this discussion, but have been closely following it. Like most members, I was genuinely interested in your rapid detox experience, and have appreciated your updates and the posts about the detox itself. I think ALL of us who suffer from opiate addiction are interested in ANYTHING that can help us stay sober. And, I truly believe that, although many of us were skeptical, we do wish the best for you….we WANT this to work out.

I see an incredible amount of denial about your addiction. For example, in your post on 4/18, you stated, “People may say that I got on Suboxone because I am a drug addict. Those are people who do not know me or totally understand the circumstances that led me to Sub.”, but you has previously stated (talking about your Vic addiction after your doc stopped prescribing them), “I was feeling horrible from the withdrawal. I started buying from the streets. $5 a pill. I was at 10 a day in the end. My tolerance had gone up. So you can imagine how much money I was spending.”. Buying drugs illegally, steadily increasing your dose..... to me, this is clearly addict behavior, as is the incredible fear of withdrawal (which lead you first to Methadone, then to Sub, and finally to rapid detox). Think of it this way, if you weren't an addict, if you just were physically dependent on the Vicodin, you would have bought a few on the streets and done a taper, and been done with it....but that isn't what happened. And, I am not judging that...I didn't do it either (but, that's because I'm an addict :))

For me, the most infuriating part of this whole saga has been your refusal to accept that you are an addict and that most of the problems in your life are YOUR FAULT (not the doctors). Believe me, I know where you are on this issue. I felt the same way for months; I felt like the doctors who prescribed all this medication had to at least share in the responsibility….then I realized that I had made the appointments, gotten the scripts (usually through a fair amount of lying and/or exaggerating), driven to the pharmacy, filled the prescriptions, and taken the drugs (usually more than prescribed). I knew these drugs were addicting and dangerous (and I think you did as well, especially based on your mother’s experiences) and, if I was honest with myself, I knew I was taking them to get high (not because I was sick).

I am not saying this to argue with you, or make you feel bad. I am saying this because I want you to stay sober (regardless of how you do it), and I firmly believe that this denial will ultimately prevent that. I think this is a precarious time for you. Based on your posts, it seems that you believe that once you get through withdrawal and PAWS, you are home free. But, this is when the real work begins. This is also another benefit of Suboxone treatment…I don’t have to worry about withdrawal and cravings, so I can focus on recovery so that, if I ever get off sub, I will have the tools to stay clean long term (hopefully).

I really hope that you let go of all of this anger. First, it will eat you up….emotionally, physically, and spiritually. Second, because it will make your sobriety that much harder. And, finally, because I don’t want to see you banned from the site…I enjoy your posts about the rapid detox experience and would really love to know what happens long term with this.

Sorry this is so long….I have been holding it in for a while. I really do wish you the best, and I hope you take this in the spirit it was intended.

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"Don't hope for a life without problems. An easy life results in a judgmental and lazy mind."
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 Post subject: Well Said........
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:09 pm 
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Hello ene579,
All I can say is DITTO! I could have written all day long trying to say the same thing But, it never would have come out like that..... Excellent post!! Thank You for sharing.. :D

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:50 am 
I agree Ene....wonderful post! Thanks for taking the time to write it.
You are so right.....There comes a time when we must stop blaming pain, doctors, others, etc and start accepting accountability for our own actions. There was a point in time when I could have stopped the downward spiral into addiction and I didn't. There was a time when I could have chosen not to step up to stronger drugs. I made the wrong choice...my fault...mine....noone else's. I've played the blame game....made excuses to try to make myself feel better. But the truth is.....I screwed up. Bigtime. I did not stop this when I could have. Ignorance played a part. I think it does for most of us. Despite my medical background, I didn't know what really happened when a person stopped opiates. All I knew of it was what I saw in the movies where somebody was coming off Heroin. But that was Heroin....I wasn't doing Heroin! I had no idea that I could get so sick from stopping pain meds! All I knew after I crossed over into full-blown addiction was that I wanted and needed more drugs. It was a compulsion that baffled me....literally baffled me. Why on this earth would I do this? Why could I not just stop it? I certainly wanted and needed to! For me, that is where the powerlessness and the insanity of addiction came in. There is no other explanation. No need to blame or wonder any more. It is what it is! There had to come a time where I threw up my hands and said "Okay! I give up! I surrender! I'm not strong enough, powerful enough or smart enough. This thing has kicked my ass!"
Sometimes we have to exhaust every other alternative and have it proven to us over and over again before we get it - Opiate addiction is a complex disease. It doesn't matter what your particular drug of choice was, how you got started on the drugs, how long or how much you used, how smart or educated you are, how strong you are, etc. We have to surrender and we have to get the focus off everything else and on to figuring out how to get better. I believe Sugarcain is trying to do that. It's a process and most of us need a lot of help. I hope she pursues and finds a good addiction specialist and continues to educate herself about addiction and treatment. Otherwise, like the rest of us, she does not have great chances for staying off opiates. I hope she and all the rest of us keep working on our recovery and keep this disease in remission. Because I'm more convinced every day that remission is the best we can hope for. We'll never, ever be what we were before our addiction. It just isn't possible. I hate it.....but it's the way it is.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Setmefree,

Wow…it’s like you’ve crawled into my head!! Two parts of your post really stood out to me.

“But that was Heroin....I wasn't doing Heroin! I had no idea that I could get so sick from stopping pain meds!”

This was the continuing chant in my head that allowed me to justify my use. “I’m only addicted to pills”, “ I’m not buying off the street (usually)”….But, my favorite (and most repeated justification) was, “I don’t take that many, so it’s under control”. At the height of my addiction, I worked as a student therapist (I was in grad school) at an in-patient rehab facility. I would compare myself to the patients, particularly to the amount that they used, and assure myself that I wasn’t like them, because I only used 10-15 pills, and they used 20….so I was all good. I told my doctor this during my induction appointment, and he told me that it didn’t matter if you only took ONE pill a day….if you HAD TO HAVE that one pill, and if you would lie and cheat to get it….you’re an addict. The truth sucks!!!

This is where I really relate to Sugarcaine. I was primarily a Vicodin addict (although I was rapidly moving toward Oxy), I didn’t inject drugs, I didn’t take THAT much….I didn’t see myself as an addict. And, as long as I wasn’t an addict, I would never ask for help. It took me a long time to understand that addiction is not about the amount or types of drugs we use, it’s about our behavior.

“Because I'm more convinced every day that remission is the best we can hope for. We'll never, ever be what we were before our addiction. It just isn't possible. I hate it.....but it's the way it is.”

This has been the HARDEST thing for me to accept. I spent A LOT of time crying about how I wanted
“my old life” back when I was using. I remember coming in for my first follow-up appointment after starting sub, and I told my doctor how well I was doing, and that I felt like I had before I started using, and that this was all I wanted. To my surprise, he told me that I could NEVER be that person again….1. because that person ultimately became an addict, so things must not have been THAT great and 2. Because my brain, surrounding, and relationships had been changed by the drugs. I have really struggled with this; I still struggle with it….but, you’re right, it’s the truth.

I thought about this when I first read Sugarcaine’s posts…I, too wanted to “wash” all the opiates out of my system, and have a clean start. I want to go back to the “virginal” (sorry, that was the best word I could think of) brain that didn’t crave drugs and have a high tolerance…..I want a do over!!! But, it’s about more than the chemicals in my body…even if they are all gone (including the sub), I am just an addict with no opiates in my system, like I was 15 years ago, WHEN I STARTED DOING DRUGS…so, there has to be more it than just cleaning my body. That’s why I go to therapy, NA, and this forum….I need to become a NEW person, not the old person that I was….and, that’s really really hard.

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"Don't hope for a life without problems. An easy life results in a judgmental and lazy mind."
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:39 pm 
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I removed two posts in this thread by 'sugarcain'. I wanted to keep the comments about rapid detox, if nothing else to show others that it really doesn't save all that much trouble... if you look at the posts afterward there are multiple complaints about emotional difficulties (used as excuses for comments that violate the spirit and rules of this forum) that sounded about as bad as those that follow 'cold turkey' withdrawal from buprenorphine. The comments that I removed included the rant about 'buprenorphine coming from India'. First, the comment is simply inaccurate; buprenorphine was first patented over 30 years ago, and I don't think anyone can pinpoint where it was first used to treat opiate dependence-- as that has been going on for a long time by individuals who used Temgesic or other brands of buprenorphine after hearing about such use through word of mouth. But beyond that, so what if it DID come from India? SugarCain made the 'India' comment several times; is it part of some anti-India racist thing? Should we trust something less that comes from... Oh No.... INDIA?!!

The secont post that I removed was the one about 'doctors keeping people on buprenorphine to pad their wallets.' I found such a comment ironic from a person defending rapid opiate detox-- a 7 to 10 grand weekend that accomplishes nothing. I realize that there are likely doctors who are greedy (and I suppose that the sun comes up in the east). But compared to ortho, ent, derm, or radiology-- not to mention the surgical specialties like plastics, cardiac, or neuro-- treating people with buprenorphine is not that lucrative. It is also MUCH more lucrative treating people for the short-term with buprenorphine than it is maintaining a bunch of stable patients who you see every few months or so!

For those who were enjoying reading and re-reading those posts, I'm sorry.... I just got sick of looking at them!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:00 am 
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I'm thrilled :) I couldn't stand looking at them the first time let alone go back and look again.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:08 pm 
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It has been 12 days. I CAN tell you, I feel a whole lot better than my friends husband who quit at .5 mgs. I am staying home from work just due to weakness. Other than that I just have to get my appetite back.
I do NOT agree with the Dr. who pulled my thread because Rapid Detox is not reliable. I was on a very high dose. And all I had after the procedure was low energy and diarrhea. You have to totally cleanse yourself before you go and it takes awhile to regulate.
I understand the people on this post thinking I am in DENIAL. But it is completely ridiculous. Because I have not SAID "I am an addict" in my posts, it's pretty apparent. Of course I am addicted. I was on Sub right? Isn't Sub the addicts life saver?
I am not so much angry anymore. I pretty much let it go. I had too. But I still feel that Sub was not right for me, as I was put on it anyway. I know you question why I even took it. You will have to ask my Dr. that. He explained it to me that it had an agonist/antagonist blocker and it was keeping opiates from getting to my brain without having to GO THROUGH WITHDRAWAL. Those were beautiful words to my ears. I wasn't getting high. I was maintaining my dosage so I wouldn't get sick. Still an addict. I get it.
With Methadone, I started weening immediately. I was doing great, but heard there could be a stuck factor and I could be in withdrawal at the smallest dose. That is why Suboxone was so appealing to me.
I AM AN ADDICT.
JUST DID RAPID DETOX.
AND I FEEL PRETTY DAMN GOOD. If you stopped Sub at 16mgs a day, you would not be feeling as good as me. So I believed it worked. I still do not understand the agonist/antagonist. I don't care how many times it is explained to me. Medically, it doesn't make sense. And again, I am in no way disrespecting anyone who chooses to take this medication. I just did not want to be a slave to anything anymore. I want my life back. Without Dr. visits to stay stable. Sub changed me. I wasn't there for my daughter. My friends. My husband.
Another weird symptom. I am stretching a lot. I am sleeping well. Just pretty weak. But that should just be another 4-5 days.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:41 pm 
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I stopped sub at 12mg per day and was feeling fairly good on the 12th day actually. Not quite as good as you but I was working still. Actually....I only missed 1/2 day of work when I went off sub.

Oh....and you DO still seem to be in denial. See...I get it that you acknowledge you are an "addict" but it is that you think it is someone else's fault that you became one and how it happened that is the problem. What you also don't seem to achnowledge is that while rapid detox "might" work for you, it still isn't reliable per scientific research. i.e. it might work for you but it may not work for the next 1000 people. So scientifically, it isn't a good method. Further, just because you think you don't feel as bad as if you had gone CT off sub, doesn't mean you will stay clean for the long haul. That is another factor in the reliability issue. A treatment method doesn't "WORK" unless it prevents the symptoms of addiction on a long term basis. That is what everyone has been trying to tell you for weeks now. Someone could lock me in a room for 3 weeks too and I would be over withdrawal by the end of the 3 weeks. Is THAT a good treatment method?

You seem to deny the true reasons your posts were deleted. The doc was pretty clear as to why this was.....but you seem to be in denial about that too.

It isn't the rapid detox that bothers me so much, but the things the subox doc is discussing when he explains why he deleted your posts. It is that you have disrespectful to all of us and the general population by spreading false information about suboxone...which you have done repeatedly.....and without apology. So again, you are here to post about yourself and your experience, and don't seem to care who you poison in the process.

Your rapid detox hasn't "worked"........yet. We will see. Although I would love it to work because then that would mean I could get off sub and just do the rapid detox thing instead of buying the couch I have been dreaming of and could forget all about this whole nightmare (the addiction...NOT the sub). But..............it sound to me like you pretty much feel the same as someone who has been off sub for 3 weeks so I am not sure I would want to pay $10,000 for that. I can handle feeling a little sick.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:21 pm 
Seriously Sugarcain......Is there any way that you could JUST post about what types of symptoms you're having and whether or not you've needed any further treatment with medications or otherwise since your procedure?
There is absolutely no way you could know if you're better off than your friend's husband or anyone else who has tapered off buprenorphine. It is simply too subjective an experience to make that call.
Furthermore, you've been asked and asked to stop arguing the pros and cons of buprenorphine, yet you continue to do so. You just cannot seem to post anything without somehow slamming medication-assisted recovery.
It is abundantly clear to me that you have a long, long way to go before you'll be able to have a healthy, stable life in recovery. You seem dead set on finding a short-term solution to a long-term problem. You've tried a round of Methadone. You've tried a round of Suboxone. And now you've tried this Rapid Detox thing. I hate to tell you this......but.....one more time.....There is No Cure for Addiction. All we can hope for is remission. And once again......Please get follow up care. You are not cured.....not by a long shot.
If you're going to contine to post, stick to the facts about how you are feeling, as objectively as you possibly can, or you're going to end up getting yourself banned from the site. I have a strong suspicion you will disappear from the site anyway because odds are strongly against you still being drug free over the coming weeks and months. I hope you prove me wrong.....I sincerely do!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:58 pm 
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Wow, you sound pretty angry for someone who isn’t angry anymore. Honestly, I think you have every right to be angry, I just don’t think you are directing your anger at the right person. I think that it is interesting that you ultimately end up getting mad at people who try to help you…your pain management doctor who wouldn’t prescribe you Vicodin, your methadone clinic people, your sub doctor, Dr. Junig (who took a lot of time to talk to you personally, kinda discrediting the “greedy doctor” theory), and now the other people on this forum who are trying to help you deal with what we see as dangerous behavior….I wonder how long it will be before you are angry with the rapid detox people? Who is the only person left to me mad at? Who is the ONE PERSON who is involved in ALL of the above mentioned relationships?

As far as the anti-sub stuff, I don’t think it is on purpose, and I really don’t think that you are aware of the impact of your words on people who are struggling with addiction. You’re right, you never exactly came out and said “I hate suboxone”, but when you say things like, “And again, I am in no way disrespecting anyone who chooses to take this medication. I just did not want to be a slave to anything anymore. I want my life back.”….the inference is pretty clear. You are pretty much saying that those of us who choose to use this are slaves to the medication; at least, that’s how I read it. I don’t think it is intentional, and I don’t think you are some sort of uncaring person; I think you are pretty pissed about your situation, and so your words are loaded with anger.

I really am glad that you are doing well after the rapid detox. How exactly are you feeling though? Do you feel like you are in withdrawal? Do you have cravings? How do you feel mentally (anxiety, foggy headed, insomnia)? I am not familiar with this process at all, so I was wondering if they offer any aftercare (support groups, therapy, etc)? Do you plan to live completely sober (no drinking, no opiates, no pot), or do you feel like you could control your intake when you are feeling better? Again, all this aside, I am interested in the rapid detox, and in your recovery, so I hope you will continue to update us about that part.

Thanks for the updates so far...I hope they continue.

Elizabeth

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:57 am 
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In terms of being a "SLAVE" to something....I can either be a "SLAVE" to suboxone or I can be a "SLAVE" to something else. I don't really feel like a "SLAVE" to my suboxone though. I often forget to take it until several hours past the time I was due. I take it and forget about it and move on with my daily routine. If it was making me tired or something, then I can just lower the dose. I have to go to an appointment once a month and that is 15 minutes away. The doc is always on time. I am only there for maybe 15 minutes. I go to the pharmacy and forget about it till the next month. It is actually pretty simple.

When I went off suboxone, the doc responded to my post on the forum. Dr. Junig basically told me that I could either go back on the suboxone, or I could immerse myself into the 12 steps for the rest of my life. This was the BEST wake up call for me. This was an experience doctor giving me serious advice and I don't know a doctor who is as experienced as Dr. Junig with addiction and addiction treatment. It was the first time I realized and internalized that there really was NO CURE for me. I started going to meetings (reluctantly) and explored my options for a few months. I quickly realized that I could either go back on suboxone, or be a SLAVE to meetings for the rest of my life. I am not in love with going to meetings and spending so much time on my addiction. Going to meetings literally takes about 3 hours out of my day. I have to get ready, drive there, sit through the meeting, and then drive back. I would have to do this EVERY day. My goodness do you know how many other things I would be missing? I am ALL FOR the easy way out. I am ALL FOR getting my life back. But I will never be able to escape the fact that I got addicted to narcotics and nothing will ever be the same as it was before. Statistically, I will die if I don't maintain some active treatment plan. I chose suboxone because this option afforded me to focus the least amount of time and energy on the most MASSIVE and HEARTBREAKING mistake I ever made which was getting addicted to opiates. I don't feel like a SLAVE on suboxone. I feel like a SLAVE OFF suboxone.

My concern for you Sugarcain is not that you are in denial about being physically addicted. It is your denial about your reality that concerns me. I have yet to hear you indicate any intention of an aftercare program, the 12-steps or any kind of follow up treatment. My concern is your denial of YOUR behavior which got you here because when you blame everything on everyone else, you aren't acknowledging the role you had and continue to have in your addiction. If you take no responsibility for how you got here, you will not be taking any responsibility in your recovery. You really want to believe this is it and that you are done, will feel better in a few days, and can move on with your life. Statistically, this is not likely to happen for you or any of us. You can try to beat the odds, but you can also die trying.

In your last post you said we would have to ask your doctor why you were put on suboxone. The word "PUT" infers you were directed or told. But we don't need to ask your doctor why he PRESCRIBED suboxone because you already told us that you ASKED HIM FOR IT. He prescribed it because you are an addict. You were afraid of getting off methadone, and if you were afraid of getting off methadone, he knows it is easier to get off suboxone. So he explained this drug to you (which you admit you still don't understand so I am not sure when you reiterate the conversations you had with your doctor that you are even reiterating them correctly) and you CHOSE to take it.

My first suboxone doctor also told me I would not have withdrawal. I was a little mad when I went off it and DID have withdrawal. But you know what? It doesn't really matter because I had no choice but to go on the suboxone anyways and even if he told me I would have had withdrawal from it I still would have taken it because the withdrawal is EASIER than any other drug out there.

Bottom line. If you continue to be in denial about how you got addicted (which isn't anyone else's fault....it just IS) then you will be in denial about your future triggers, your ability or inability to take narcotics in the future, your addictive behaviors even if you are dry, etc. The chances are, you will die. It may not be today, tomorrow, or even in the next 12 months. But it could be 2 or 3 years from now, or 10 years from now.

I hope you THINK about the things people are saying and have said to you.

I don't think you trash suboxone intentionally either, but I do think that you have been asked and warned repeatedly to stop it and I do think that you AGAIN, need to take responsibility for THIS behavior whether intentional or not. It is still your behavior that is offensive and potentially harmful to others. You seem to be completely oblivious to this fact and you don't have to be. You could CHOOSE to listen.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Hey sugarcain -

I have been reading this thread and others you have posted. Part of me thinks you are trying to be helpful to us on he forum.

'Rapid Detox' really appeals to me. I read a lot about it, watched a local news story about it, and read the different methods - Waismann Method versus other methods, etc.

The bottom line for me is that I don't have $10K-$20K of money to fly somewhere and have this procedure done.

One of the draws for me was the thinking that I could slip away for a short trip somewhere, get Rapid-detox'd and head back home normal - just like pressing reset on my computer - back to my 'ole self. Great dream.

I hope you continue to post facts on the forum about your experience. I'm interested. What discouraged me, (and helped me too) - was the fact you didn't just come back home and 'whamo' you are back at work and totally functional. From where I stand - that would be my #1 goal. Get detox'd rapidly, then just come back to life normally.

I want a sliver bullet. Who doesn't? I wanted to hear how you spent that big money, and you walked out of a cloud back to normal. No issues, no leg pain, no sleep issues, no nausea, no mood swings, no cravings, nothing - just back to normal.

I can tell by your posts that you might have skipped some of the initial withdrawal symptoms, but I am disappointed that you were not returned 100% normal. I guess Rapid Detox may help speed some things up, but my skewed vision about it being a "one and done" long weekend (like the website promotions talk about) - is just a fantasy.

Whether you are an 'addict' or just 'dependent' upon opiates - then later buprenorphine (a partial opiate) - is really less of an issue with me. I still like to think of myself as 'just dependent' rather than an 'addict' as that seems such an ugly word. If I don't say that - then somehow I can fake myself out that I'm not as goofed up as some people I know, or my own bias of what I think an 'addict' is.

You may be like me or not, I don't know. In my case - I woke up one day and realized (regardless of tags or words) this simple fact. I had put my body into a situation where it was dependent upon chemicals. I took those chemicals, pills in my case, on my own. Nobody pushed them in my throat. I started out in control and moved to out of control. I hated myself for going against everything I believed in. Truth, honesty, character, etc. Still I kept chemicals in my body. Opiates. They moved over the years from a 'warm glow with energy' to just fending off feeling horrible. Again, I knew this. I took them. I knew. I denied. I manipulated. I did whatever it took to keep me from getting sick. I tried to quit. I told myself that I could do it cold turkey. I read posts about cold turkey quitting. I tried Tom's recipe for cold turkey a couple times. I had no energy, I had big sick issues. I hid. I was ashamed. I was a liar.

Come along with 'Rapid Detox' and I am a perfect candidate. Except that I was not able to cough up $10-$20,000 without anyone knowing. Still - it was like a dream. Wow a perfect way to right all the wrongs I had done to myself and others. But, my reality was that I could not do it - and I was SICK OF MYSELF. I made an appointment with a suboxone doctor at a family clinic - and told my wife. That was the hardest day of my life. We talked about being dependent. She supports me.

Am I an addict? Who cares...... I now know that I am. My own behavior bears that out. Does it matter? Yes for me. If I don't own up to my own behavior, no method of detox will work long term. I wish in many ways that your experience would have been - I went to 'Rapid Detox on Friday - and returned Monday and it is Tuesday and I feel FANTASTIC.' I can't believe it! The doc's put me under one minute, and I awoke - shook off the anesthesia - and I'm ready to hit the gym, have fun, have tons of energy, my appetite is normal, no knot in my gut -- and wow -- I'm totally normal.

If that would have been your experience, I'd start my savings account. I mean who wants to work on a taper from any medication if I can have doctors perform magic with chemistry and I avoid all discomfort and especially avoid long term consistent effort a taper takes. I'd love to avoid all that hassle, but I am now convinced that the process is part of the recovery. While I wanted your report on Rapid Detox to be what I expected, somewhere I knew that I'd need to own up to my own behavior, and change it over time. For me, it is hard to admit my own weakness.

Besides all the indirect shots your posts take buprenorphine/suboxone, i appreciate your posting about a real-life rapid detox experience. I appreciate being able to confirm (sadly I must admit) that rapid detox may help kick-start the process, but that I'm in for a lifelong struggle to stay opiate free when that day comes. You have helped me with my expectation management.

For that I am grateful.

--LD


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:26 pm 
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I had to fly with my friend who was to be my caretaker after the procedure. She had to cold turkey at 4 mgs. due to the economy and losing her house. She has been opiate free for a year now. Her suffering (at which I saw with my own eyes) was horrible. I got scared. Her husband, who was at .5 was experiencing the same symptoms, although not AS severe. I had three options. Stay on Sub. Which my insurance didn't cover much because there was no generic. I was paying $260.00 per month. And my husband works for the State. I could ween down and suffer like my friends did. This was not very appealing to me. She wasn't working at the time and could battle it out, although it was dangerous. I have a full time job and a teenager. So I decided on Rapid Detox. Another friend, who is very dear to me, helped me financially with this. Otherwise I could not afford it. She knew how desperate and scared I was. Maybe some people have an easy time tapering. But everyone is different. I knew it would be a battle for me. I tried to taper to only feel awful after 3 days. This was explained to me by the Dr. at Rapid Detox. Suboxone and Methadone have a very long life span. The opioid in Sub is like super-glue, and does not want to leave the pain receptors.
We checked in to a very nice Hotel in Michigan close to the clinic. I went in for blood and urine work the next day. Mainly to make sure that I had no amphetamine or cocaine in my system. That can cause problems with this procedure.
With everything clean, besides Sub and Xanax (my anxiety went two fold on Sub) I spoke with the Dr. and the Psychiatrist at the clinic. Spent about 4 hours there. There were people from all over the country there with all different opiate addictions. From Oxi, to heroin, to methadone. Only a couple of us on Sub. The other guy on Sub was on a very low dose. I think it was 2mgs. There was also a girl there that had done it before, but had multiple back surgeries and could not taper from her meds.
On Wed. everyone is detoxed. My appointment was at 6:45 a.m. When I woke up from anesthesia, I remember fighting it. Getting out of bed. With my eyes closed. Trying to talk but no one understood what I was saying. The paramedic that came back to the room with my friend had to keep putting me in bed. I was so frustrated. I just wanted a cigarette and they didn't understand what I was trying to say. I finally passed out.
There were meds that my caretaker/friend had to give to me every 4/6/8 hours. The EMS went over all of this with her while she stayed in the room for that 6 hours.
On Friday I was discharged from the Dr.
Saturday we flew back to Reno. I have to say, I was VERY weak. My chest bone hurt from sneezing attacks when I was under (a side effect from opiate withdrawal). I must of sneezed a thousand times in that 60 minutes I was under.
I was sent home with some natural remedies and some meds. Soma, Nuerontin, my xanax. And a blocker (NALTREXONE) in pill form. I am to take this every morning with potassium pills. The blocker for at least 6 months.
I am also taking Vitamin D, and something for appetite. I have been eating much better these last few days. My energy is coming back slowly.
As far as side effects, or withdrawal. NO KICKING. No leg cramps. No night sweats. I am actually sleeping alot. Something my friend could not do cold turkey. She was sleep deprived and running high fevers.
I feel very blessed to have been able to do this. I didn't have to spend what little we have in savings. I did miss some work, but I consider the alternative, and it is OK. We will be fine.
I wish I would have known that Naltrexone was in pill form a long time ago. Instead of switching drugs, I could have just been put on that. But I am on it now and on my way to recovery.
As far as the Rapid Detox Center, they are in touch with me all of the time. If I need anything, they will call in a script, as long as it is not habit forming. They also agreed to ween me off of Xanax. But suggested I wait awhile for that. They call my scripts in to my local Pharmacy. They have been so helpful, and informative.
Like I said. I feel blessed.
I also wanted to respond to JackCrack. I do have a plan in place. I have a great recovery program here without meetings. I have a sponsor. He runs 4 half-way houses in Reno. I don't mind meetings once in awhile. My boss of 15 years just passed away in December of a heart attack. The same month my mother passed away. He was clean and sober for 19 years. Built a Sports Bar Giant in my town. He was a man that was an inspiration to a lot of people where I work and around the city. A man that believed in second chances. I believe this is my second chance. I carried his picture with me the entire time I was in Michigan.
I am sorry that I never said, "Hello, my name is Shellice, and I am an addict!" when I came to this forum. Maybe if I did, things would not have gotten so out of control.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:01 pm 
Hi Shellice
I'm trying to understand what exactly they do to detox you. You said you were under anesthesia for 60 minutes. What happens during that period? Then what is the medication your friend had to give you every 4/6/8 hours?
Thanks for the information. It is helpul for others who have considered this method to learn from your experience.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:35 pm 
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Well, a lot was nausea meds. Meds for sleep. Stuff like that right after Detox. I didn't need much of those. I slept two days pretty well. Didn't throw up. Although it was hard for me to eat at first.
There is only one way to do Rapid Detox. They give you an IV with Narcan and some other stuff. They told me the cocktail, but I knew it was the only method, so I didn't pay too much attention.
Waismann Method does the same cocktail. Except they keep you in a hospital bed for 4 days and then send you to a retreat for 4 days for a total cost of $24,000.00. RDD was $6,700.00, but you have to pay for airfare and the hotel they use for their patients. You would have to drive and pay for airfare on top of everything at Waismann as well though. Depending where you live. It was closer to me, but in the end, MUCH more expensive. Everything else is covered under that price and I got great care from the Dr. to the EMS staff at the Hotel.
The only med I needed was my Xanax being I have been on it for three years. 4mgs per day. The nurse at RDD is going to ween me slowly off of it. But not right away. She understands the anxiety that comes with this and the meds I was on. But they also gave me Soma, Neurontin, and my blocker, which I am to take every day. It is the same blocker in Sub without the Buprenorphine. I am also on all natural Digestive meds with FOS, Vitamin D, and potassium. If you feel any weird symptoms, the clinic calls in any meds you may need. I had no appetite when I got back so they called in something for that and it helped. My energy is getting better every day. Being that I am Bar Tender I was worried about returning with the low energy, but I have wonderful bosses that support what I have done and are working with me.
There is no easy way out really. But this was better than the alternative. I was at 16mgs for three years and had a very hard time weening. Some people don't. I did. I hope that this answered some of your questions. If you have any more let me know.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:41 pm 
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Jackcrack wrote:
I'm thrilled :) I couldn't stand looking at them the first time let alone go back and look again.


I still do not understand why you keep coming to my posts if I am so horrible and in DENIAL. You actually did say at one time that you were done reading what I had to say, but yet you keep coming back. Throwing accusations at me. Reading into my posts completely wrong, and then annihilating me about what I had said.
I am raw with emotions right now, and to be honest, I cant get through an entire post you write.
I GET THAT IT WORKS FOR YOU! I GET THAT THE Dr. TOOK HIS TIME EXPLAINING THINGS TO ME. So did mine. But I wanted off. So I did what I had to do.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

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