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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:33 am 
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Hey guys, I was wondering how long it would take for me to build up a tolerance to Subutex? I'm also wondering what are the warning signs that you are becoming physically addicted? And if I was to become physically addicted... what would be the withdrawal symptoms.

I'm not taking it because I had a drug problem, I've actually never done Heroin, Oxi, or all that other stuff Subutex helps with. I take about 2 mg at 8pm and I only do that about twice a week. I've been doing this for about a month now, but plan to stop in a couple of weeks. I'm only doing it because I'm coming up towards the end of a semisester and the Subutex actually helps me study and write essays well. It also gives me a minor buzz that's nice. The next day after I've taken my 2mg, I don't feel buzzed but I feel in a better mood and willing to actually do something productive. The day after the next day, however, I feel lazy and kinda cranky. I don't know if that's a little withdrawal or if it's just me going back to being sober... because truth be told I have been lazy, tired, and short tempered for a while now due to the fact that life has thrown me a few curve balls. I just wanted someone elses' input.... do you think that's like a minor withdrawal thing (If there is such a thing). The reason why I take it every few days is because I don't want to be addicted to anything or go through withdrawals. I just do it from time to time because I'm not gonna lie... it makes everything more fun and tolerable.

Keep in mind, I don't want a lecture saying "you're not supposed to take Subutex for that reason"... I already know that, that's why I'm not making a habit out of this. I would just like my questions answered please.

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this and answer :)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:44 am 
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So you're taking 2 mg of sub about twice a week? It's very hard to say whether at that rate you will have withdrawals or not. I would think it depends on how long you've been doing it. Keep in mind the average half-life is 37 hours.

I'm not going to judge you for using sub to get high - we've all used something to get high, that's why we're here. But let me try to explain something...We are on suboxone/subutex trying to get our lives together and stay clean. And although we take it legitimately, there is still a huge stigma attached to it/us. One of the reasons that is, is because people use sub on the street to get high. So people misunderstand and think that we are using it to get high, too, when in fact if taken as directed there is no high at all. I'm only saying this just in case there are some negative responses to this post.

Lastly, are you aware of how strong suboxone/subutex is? Even for addicts who used heroin, oxy's, morphine, etc, when we go on sub it actually RAISES our tolerance higher (usually). Also, one of the things we sub patients struggle with is what happens if we get injured or need surgery (or any type of acute pain relief). You see, sub is so strong that it's difficult to even get a regular pain medication to even work for us. By taking even a smallish dose of sub on a regular basis, you may have the same problems. I just want you to be aware of such things.

OK, I'm done now. I wish you the very best and hope that you do stop the sub as you said you would. If any of this doesn't make sense to you or you have questions, just say the word.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:55 am 
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I think you are on a slippery slope here. Regardless of whether or not that crankiness you feel is withdrawal, you are changing your body's brain chemistry, maybe permanently, and for that reason alone, you should stop NOW and never pick it up again. I can guarantee you that every single person on this site has a story and within every one of those there is an experience just like you describe. I read these all the time on this site. The next sentence is always "....but you know how it is. There is a line but you never know until you have already crossed it and it is too late". Every single one of us wishes we could have known where that line was and how to get off of it. You have VERY limited time with that line and you are lucky because you came here. So I am now going to tell you, YOU ARE CROSSING THIS VERY DANGEROUS LINE AND YOU NEED TO STOP BEFORE YOU ARE SCREWED! You don't have another two weeks of this. I know it makes things "better" and "easier" and you only need it for studying or to get through whatever. It isn't worth it. YOU ARE ON THE LINE AND IF YOU TAKE THIS FOR 2 MORE WEEKS YOU WILL GO OVER THE LINE AND WON'T BE ABLE TO GET BACK.

Another thing I noticed from what you said is that in my humble opinion, you already have the chemistry of an addict. Non-addicts do NOT think like you are thinking. They do NOT even consider taking a narcotic to make studying easier. They don't enjoy the marginal little high. There is no such thing as a SAFE narcotic. Many physicians believe narcotics change the brain chemistry PERMANENTLY and that the brain will ALWAYS remember that warm fuzzy feeling you like so much. It will ALWAYS want that in your future. I totally believe this to be true.

When I got addicted, it was because I was taking it for pain. But I was also going through a very hard time in my life. I owned my own business, was getting my masters. I was busy and life was stressful. So while I took it for pain, I also enjoyed that it took the edge off. I too thought I would only take it a couple of times. Then I took it a couple times within the same week. Then I took it for an entire week. Then it was two weeks and it was all over. In less than a month it was OVER. If you keep this up, the next time you go to stop, you will get sick and it will suck. You will think, oh I will just taper a little. But that is VERY hard to do and most of us would say it is impossible. Suboxone takes a LONG time to taper off of. Yes....it is easier to taper with suboxone than it is with any other drug, but you have to taper to doses they don't even manufacture. You have to dissolve crumbs of pills for months to get to those doses. Suboxone is "safer" than heroin or oxycontin for those who are ALREADY addicted. For those who are NOT such as you, it is probably WORSE.

Finally, I feel justified in this final lecture because I did take time to give you the best most caring advice I have. What you are doing is threatening to those of us who NEED this drug for survival. The illegal sale and use of suboxone could cause me to have to take an hour out of every day to go pick up my dose from a clinic. It causes people to look at suboxone like a street drug. I can't get high off suboxone but when you take it to get the marginal little high, it makes people think it does get me high. It makes my life very difficult. It may cause employers to start testing for suboxone in pre-employment drug tests. It could affect my career if they do that. Doctors fear the illegal sale of narcotics they prescribe so fewer doctors will want to prescribe it. It was kind of selfish for you to come to a recovery site to ask questions about how you could do better getting high. Think about it just a little. Actually....typical addict behavior if you ask me. Now really think about it. If you don't stop now, it will only be another month or two before YOU have the same concerns I do. If you really keep it up, you might be one of the people picking up your suboxone from a clinic every morning in a couple of years.

STEP AWAY FROM THE NARCOTICS!

Cherie

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:00 am 
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duderanchbcr182,

I would say that you are playing with fire, but it's much more akin to your playing with a thermo-nuclear device!

I'm not sure you fully appreciate how quickly things can go horribly wrong. Opiate addiction and withdrawal is serious shit.

You asked about how long would it take you to build up tolerance...you already have!

You asked about the warning signs of becoming addicted. (BTW, opiates are Mentally and Physically addictive)...Withdrawal when you're not taking the Subutex is a serious sign of becoming addicted. Your already experiencing the very early signs of it.

You asked if you were to become addicted, what woud the withdrawal symptoms be...you already mentioned two of them in YOUR post...being lazy and cranky!

I have to say it again...a lot of drugs are like fire. Opiates are like nuclear bombs...when that SOB goes off, it's gonna take you and anyone around you out.

Please, Please stop now. Any withdrawal you are going to feel should be minimal.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:29 am 
You sound a lot like this guy last night saying they only take sub only one day a week. Kinda odd actually that all the sudden two people come on here in 2 consecutive days telling basically the same story and might i add, a story that is hardly heard of. You know they make medication to help you study right? Its called ritalin or adderal. Yea they are a bit addictive but nothing like an opiate is. We take this medication because we are trying to get our lives in order. Not to get high and what your doing is making us look bad. I think you have a lot of nerve to come here an tell people your using the very medication we are using to get recover, to get high. I tell you what, you seem like a perfect candidate for one of those sub bashing sites. Have you ever heard of them? You will find all the info you need and it will possibly help you stop before its too late. I cant think of the name of them at the moment but if you do some looking, their not hard to find. So with that said, i wish you well!!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:31 pm 
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This reminds me of how I got started down this nightmare path.....In my mid 20's I started getting migraines and finally found a combo of meds that helped them. Midrin and Codeine. I was opiate naive then so 1-30mg codeine was working. I found that I quite liked myself on codeine, however and after about 6 months started taking them 1-2 times extra a week....got myself a little buzz and felt "happy"..and capable. I could do things with more ease..I was accepted into the anesthesia program and was told the letter I wrote about why I wanted to be in that field was the 'best they ever read'. so that just cinched it for me....I needed this little booster to be my BEST self. (and no I didn't do this field to get access to drugs...I wasn't looking for more at that point and despite my family hx and training I was very ignorant about addiction esp. as it pertained to me!) I felt more confident....then rationalized that taking them every day was not a big deal. I only took 1 every am and that was it, I told myself. Plus it wasn't like I was shooting up or something.(again, I said this to myself) I actually thought hmmmm, I wonder....is this a problem? NO! How could it be. I have it under control. It's temporary.I'll stop at Thanksgiving....or when I graduate....or right before I get married....or never.... Well, I started my anesthesia residency and had a physician friend send me 60 pills/month from Alaska! Every month. The craziest thing is i went from one codeine, maybe starting to take two a day to shooting up fentanyl in a flash. Had I not had that access my addiction probably would have been more insidious. The point is, I think you are on a very slippery slope. I'm not lecturing or anything...just when I read your story it sparked the memory of how I got here.

Not helpful probably....only you know what's going on. I hope you are able to stop. Sub is potent. Fentanyl is potent. I just remember how quickly I went from taking a pill, a fairly mild one, to shooting fentanyl realizing my life was over but not caring at that time.

Be careful and keep posting and asking questions....


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:28 am 
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Okay okay, you guys won, you actually kinda scared me away from this drug. I never meant to offend anyone by posting and saying I did Subutex to get a little buzz. I have just been wondering the questions I asked in my first post for quite some time now and I didn't know who else to ask. I thought to myself "why not ask some people who have had experience with this drug?"

I appreciate all of the replies and once again I apologize if I offended anyone. I didn't know Subutex got all of this negative attention that you guys described. Now I actually feel ashamed and I want to stop completely and right away. I've always been a drug-free person and I now see what I've been doing is wrong. Depression is no excuse to lose myself.

So now that I'm stopping all together, I am going to be expecting that tired, lazy, and cranky feeling. I'm still not sure if it's a withdrawal because like I said before, I've been that way before the Subutex for a couple of months now due to depression. But if those symptoms so happen to be withdrawals and not just my depression, how long will it last? I hate the feeling of feeling tired and not wanting to do anything. It makes me more depressed than I already am. I'm also a workout bunny, If I don't workout I go insane and it's hard to workout feeling tired all the time. That's the most thing I enjoyed about Subutex, is that the next day I would feel normal, willing to do my errands, hang out, and work out. I just want to feel normal. Not high, not lazy, just normal. Once again I ask, if my symptoms are in fact withdrawal symptoms, how long do you think they will last?

Thanks

PS
I'd also like to add some more information... it might help you guys answer my questions :)
Like I said, I've never done drugs before (until recently) to get high, but I was prescribed Vicodin for mouth surgery and I had to take about 3 pills(can't remember the mg) each day for 2 weeks. When I stopped, I had no problem whatsoever stopping, no mental or physical addiction.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:56 am 
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Hey duderanch - Firstly, thanks for the apology; it is appreciated.

In my opinion, if your tired & cranky feeling is in fact withdrawal it should resolve itself in a week or two (at the most) from when you stop taking the sub. And I really think that it would be more like a week considering your low dose and that you're only taking it twice a week. Take good care of yourself and force yourself to exercise. The tired, cranky feeling is a result of a lack of your natural endorphins, and exercise really boosts endorphin production and allieviates those feelings...even if you have to literally force yourself to work out.

I wanted to comment on your possible depression though. You said you've been depressed for a couple of months, right? Interestingly, buperenorphine (the active ingredient in Suboxone/Subutex) has been shown to have an antidepressant effect. Many people, myself included, came by our opiate addiction as a result of self-treating our depression with pain meds and I have heard quite a few people say that their depression was allieviated by Suboxone.

Which is not to say that you should be taking Sub to self-treat your depression, not at all. I just wanted to give you a little insight into why the Sub might have been helping you feel better.

I would encourage you to talk to a doctor about your depression. It could be situational, or it could be Seasonal Affective Disorder, or maybe it is just regular old depression. I've been living with the black dog for over 20 years now, so I know how it can really rob you of the will to do anything. The good thing is that it is treatable. I've had great luck treating my seasonal depression with light therapy and Vitamin D supplements. CBT or DBT are both very effective therapies for depression, and meditation and exercise can work wonders. And of course there are the many antidepressant meds, but if this is your first go-round with depression and it's not really severe, I would say try the non-drug therapies first.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:06 pm 
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I completely agree with DOAQ, suboxone is NOT the route you need to be going to treat your depression. If I were you I would quit the sub immediately, give it a week or two, then go see a doctor if your depression symptoms persist. You mentioned that life had thrown you a few curve balls lately. That could be a factor in the depression too. A doctor is, by far, your best bet.

I'm glad we were able to change your mind about using suboxone the way you were. You were headed for trouble and no one on this forum wants to see that for you.

Good luck


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 Post subject: you are fooling yourself
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:37 am 
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no lectures, but you are taking a drug. you might as well be taking oxycotin, because thats where it is gonna lead you anyway. your playing with fire. i will pray for you to stop.


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