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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:09 pm 
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I didn't exactly know where to put this, so when in doubt make a new one I guess. The post about the deaths got me to thinking about somethings. People where I live do really believe you can get "high" off suboxone. That's the truth. Before I got into my treatment I bought sub off the street. It made me so mad because I was on a waiting list for 9 months. I wanted so bad to narc those people out to their drs. you know cause I really wanted to be a patient and obviously they didn't cause they wouldn't be trading their medicine for oxys othrwise. Ok to get back to my original point. I remember that felling of being "normal" that came along with the sub. You spend so much time either being high or sick you forget what you felt like before you started doing drugs. Apparently alot of people have forgotten so much they can remember cause I heard so many talk about how "high" they got off the sub. I would try to tell them that not how it was but they would just look at me. So anyway there are dumb people everywhere of course we all already know that. I completely agree that these people will mess it up for the rest of us.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:48 pm 
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That must have been really frustrating, waiting for treatment and seeing people abuse their medication.

I know that Suboxone/Subutex are heavily abused in some areas, especially in Europe. Some people inject it to get high, others snort it. I think an opiate-naive person could probably get pretty high from Sub, others mix it with benzos to make the effect stronger.

It sucks and makes me angry, but it's also the nature of addiction. And the way the press freaks out every time there's a death that involves Sub doesn't help much at all. But people are always going to sell their pills I guess.

Sometimes I think that if medical marijuana was legal it would really cut down on the amount of pills available on the street. Pretty much every pain pill I ever did came from a pain patient that would rather have weed than opiates, so they traded for it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:33 pm 
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I just don't know how anyone gets high from Sub/bupe I mean maybe in low doses but even at induction the only thing I felt was kind of like the feeling I got right after taking an opiate agonist before the euphoria set in. I mean I noticed an opiate effect in that my withdrawals were relieved but other than that there wasn't anything very reinforcing about it I guess I felt a bit more energetic but nothing more than say a cup of coffee. I'm guessing it's probably a bit different to someone with little to no tolerance but at induction I'd been completely off opiates for a few days so I know my tolerance had to be pretty low I was absolutely miserable. I was just "high" on the fact that I didn't feel suicidal anymore lol

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:44 pm 
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The young bucks where I live use it on the weekends when they go out drinking and the get high off it because the don't normally use opiats


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:40 pm 
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I don't think anyone was getting high they just thought they were. These were people who who usd on a regular basis. They were just dumb I guess. I also agree with you Quitter if weed was legal there would be alot less abusing of other things.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Sure, people get high off of Suboxone. My induction dose got me very high but within a day or two, the euphoria went away permanently. Sure, we get angry because this is a great drug and we cannot risk having it taken away because some idiot overdoses on it (even though it's very difficult to OD on). But I'm sure those who are in Pain Management are equally as angry about us abusing our pain meds to where doctors are under such heavy surveilence by the DEA and are intimidated to treat people for their legitimate pain complaints. It goes both ways and it all has to do with ADDICTION.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:15 am 
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i have been on suboxone for 9 months now. I got down to 2 mg a day a couple months ago. I was curious and tried taking a higher dose, and I can assure anyone that I DID feel a certain "highness." In fact, im having trouble going back down. I take my does once every night, and it makes me feel a little high when it sets in, then after that I still feel slightly high, but mainly more tired. I know other people who have also gotten high off it, so yes, from personal experience, just depends what your definition of high is.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:54 am 
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When they first began prescribing subutex in the UK, a long time Diconal user friend of mine told me that he would crush up the little 0.2mg Temgesic (buprenorphine) tabs and shoot them with his Dic (not in his dick) to get a bigger hit. He reckoned that this was common practise, and this was his main argument for not going on the treatment. He still to this day refuses to believe that subutex or suboxone can have any benefit in trying to get clean.
He is dealing heroin now, and currently snorts over 2 grams daily.He can barely breathe, having the same lung condition as me (COPD) but if I tell him it's the gear causing it he just goes into a long tirade about doctors being a bunch of fools etcetera. I gave up trying to convince him a while back, but I don't think he's gonna be around too much longer. Some folks just dont want to know.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:51 am 
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I get frustrated about the "high" people report from subxone. Whoever said it depends on your definition of "high" is entirely correct in my opinion. If people would further define what "high" means I think people could in the end agree that suboxone does not get you "high" unless you do not have a tolerance to opiates and even then, your "high" will be gone in a couple days and it is not coming back unless you stop the sub and then go back on it.

My definition of opiate high is a tingly, warm feeling. I often get dizzy or light headed. I will say and do things I wouldn't normally do and have decreased inhibitions. I would often fall asleep mid conversation. I would be artificially happy or maybe become overly aggitated. My BEHAVIOR would be altered.

My definition of suboxone high is FAR different. I don't feel tingly or warm. I just DON'T feel uncomfortable in my own skin. I do not feel lightheaded or dizzy. I may become marginally tired for a brief moment if I am not doing anything else keeping me active. I do not have decreased inhibitions or ANY behavioral changes. I do NOT fall asleep mid conversation. I do NOT feel artificially happy. Whatever was making me happy before or making me sad before continues to be present after taking the suboxone. There are no behavioral alterations on any immediate level as the result of a "high".

I do not think this qualifies as "high" unless someone qualifies taking a benadryl as getting them high or a cup of coffee as getting them "high" or for that matter the neurontin they put me on got me WAY more "high" than the suboxone ever did.

This is what I think. I think most of us addicts feel like such crap when we aren't on any opiates and I believe this to be true for me PRIOR to ANY opiates that feeling "good" can be equated with feeling "high". When you are used to having no energy, feeling depressed, anxious, and/or start entering withdrawal symptoms into this and now you are really uncomfortable. Any drug that takes away those sensations and those negative feelings could be confused for being "high" because you don't feel "bad".

I am taking oxycodone for post surgical pain and that gets me "high". My head feels fuzzy. I NEVER felt like that on suboxone. The fact that people are even discussing whether or not it gets you "high" suggests the "high" is not present. Most people don't have to debate or discuss whether or not a cup of coffee makes them "high" because most would agree on the effects of caffeine. The "buzz". But I don't see the same with suboxone which to me means the "high" is in people's head and/or their definition of "high".

It doesn't get ME high. And if it did then I would just want more of it so I could get "higher" but when I am on it I don't want or need more. What they prescribed is generally enough. I can't say that about any typical opiate.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:05 am 
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I agree with the notion that getting a 'high' from suboxone relates directly to one's definition of getting high.
When I got really close to my bottom and even when I withdrawing every month, I would take anything that made me feel "different". I'm talking diphenhydramine and, yes, benadryl. In fact my taking huge amounts of benadryl actually contributed to my cracking up when I hit my bottom.

I like how Jackcrack put it that getting high usually has to do with behaviors, and I agree with that. But to me it also included how a drug changes how I'm feeling or simply my state of mind. If I could numb myself in any way, well, to me that was close enough to getting high.

It's hard to say what I felt when I first started suboxone for 2 reasons. One, they gave me Seroquel at the same time; and, Two: I was in the psych ward at the time and was really f*&$#% up. I sort of recall it making me feel a bit loopy though. But if it did, it went away permanently in a matter of days.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:40 pm 
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Take it from me, people who have never abused opiates DO get high on subutex and suboxone. When my wife had toothache last year I gave her a tiny chip off one of my sub tablets to kill it, and she was totally out of it for hours afterwards. She never takes anything as a rule, not even paracetamol ( what you lot call tylenol) as she cannot swallow pills. Also, I gave half a 2mg subutex to a non-using friend a couple of years back, and he described the initial rush as similar to ecstasy of all things, but without the visual disturbances etc. So yes, buprenorphine sure does affect people. The only reason we don't get anything from it is because we are all carrying long term opiate withdrawal, that's what the sub is masking for us every day. That's why sub withdrawal is so bad, it's not just the bupe we withdraw from, it's also all those years of heroin, oxy or whatever we were jacked on before. It doesn't just go away when you take sub you know, it's always there, lurking in the background.
If you don't believe me ask Dr J, he wrote something about this in one of his posts.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:52 am 
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I dont understand what you are saying about long term opiate withdrawal. Are you saying that if we started taking suboxone, lets say 6months ago and that if we come to an abrupt stop that we are not withdrawing from the subs but from are DOC that we were using before we started the subs? I just re-read your post and it says that we are not only withdrawing from the bupe(subs) but all of the years of previous drug abuse. I agree with that in a sense that we could have some mental issues but I am not so sure that we would still suffer physically from the past abuse issues. This is an interesting topic I would like to have some more input on the situation. I think I will look into this issue and see what info. I can find.

Hey SneakyElephant I hope you dont take this as me being confrontational I just have never heard of anything about this before and it just seems a little off. Like I said I am going to do some research and see what I come up with. Adios Amigo


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 Post subject: definition of high
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:03 am 
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The definition of [b]HIGH varies from each person but in my opinion it is anything that alters or effects you physically or mentally in anyway. No matter the slightest effect if someone considers that to be HIGH then they are HIGH.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:51 am 
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Joseph wrote:
I dont understand what you are saying about long term opiate withdrawal. Are you saying that if we started taking suboxone, lets say 6months ago and that if we come to an abrupt stop that we are not withdrawing from the subs but from are DOC that we were using before we started the subs? I just re-read your post and it says that we are not only withdrawing from the bupe(subs) but all of the years of previous drug abuse. I agree with that in a sense that we could have some mental issues but I am not so sure that we would still suffer physically from the past abuse issues. This is an interesting topic I would like to have some more input on the situation. I think I will look into this issue and see what info. I can find.

Hey SneakyElephant I hope you dont take this as me being confrontational I just have never heard of anything about this before and it just seems a little off. Like I said I am going to do some research and see what I come up with. Adios Amigo


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I like to think of withdrawal as a process that's happening in our brain/nervous system as a result of the absence of opiates in general, rather than as a response to a specific drug. This is why withdrawal symptoms can go on long past the date when all drugs have been sucessfully cleared from your body - because withdrawal is a response to the changes our bodies make in order to adapt to our opiate abuse.

Obviously, if you haven't done heroin or oxy in the past 6 months, then you no longer have those drugs in your system...but the changes those drugs once effected in your brain are still present, causing our high opiate tolerance, and it is why we can take Suboxone without getting high or violently ill.

So yes, if you for example were addicted to OC for a few years and then you took Suboxone for 6 months and then you abruptly stop taking the Suboxone, the withdrawals you would feel would be a result of changes in your brain that were initially caused by your addiction to OC, and were then maintained by your use of Suboxone.

Does that make sense?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:03 am 
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Diary of a Quitter:

Yes, that makes PERFECT sense!

Very well said!! Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:03 am 


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 Post subject: Clarification
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:13 am 
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Ok, I am NOT a medical person in any way, but I'm going to try to explain what I mean. Please bear with me on this...
Let's say for example that I am a heroin addict for 10 years. Every morning on waking I get withdrawal symptoms, sneezing, watery eyes, aching bones, goosebumps, hot and cold sweats , the works. I go to my doctor, who sends me to the addiction clinic for Suboxone therapy.
At the clinic they give me 8 mg of Suboxone daily. What does this do? It REPLACES the heroin I would normally take, thereby stopping the withdrawals from manifesting. I take this drug for 12 months and never have any recurrence of w/d in that time.
WHERE DOES MY HEROIN ADDICTION GO?
Simple answer, NOWHERE! I am STILL a heroin addict, I am just not currently taking heroin! So if I stop taking Suboxone not only will I get w/d from that, but all the symptoms of HEROIN withdrawal will now manifest themselves once more. The Suboxone has not miraculously 'cured' my addiction, it has simply prevented me from taking street drugs for the past year! This is why tapering off Suboxone is such a bitch for most people, and why it is such a long, protracted process. You are not only coming off the Sub, but also your original DOC.
Does that make sense? As I said before, Dr Junig wrote about this somewhere on the forum, I wish I could find the post again as he explains it so much better than I could.
One final thing, Joseph please don't worry about seeming confrontational! I am BRITISH, and we fight among ourselves all the time!
I hope that this explains my thoughts on addiction a little better, but bear in mind that this is just MY PERSONAL BELIEF. Please make up your own minds on this matter, I have been wrong about many things before and would welcome your own reasoned arguments about this extremely contentious subject. After all, doctors have studied addiction for years and still can't agree among themselves about it!
Good luck everyone, and keep on the right path. WE WILL ALL GET THERE IN THE END!
Best wishes,
SneakyElephant.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:43 pm 
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SneakyElephant wrote:
Ok, I am NOT a medical person in any way, but I'm going to try to explain what I mean. Please bear with me on this...
Let's say for example that I am a heroin addict for 10 years. Every morning on waking I get withdrawal symptoms, sneezing, watery eyes, aching bones, goosebumps, hot and cold sweats , the works. I go to my doctor, who sends me to the addiction clinic for Suboxone therapy.
At the clinic they give me 8 mg of Suboxone daily. What does this do? It REPLACES the heroin I would normally take, thereby stopping the withdrawals from manifesting. I take this drug for 12 months and never have any recurrence of w/d in that time.
WHERE DOES MY HEROIN ADDICTION GO?
Simple answer, NOWHERE! I am STILL a heroin addict, I am just not currently taking heroin! So if I stop taking Suboxone not only will I get w/d from that, but all the symptoms of HEROIN withdrawal will now manifest themselves once more. The Suboxone has not miraculously 'cured' my addiction, it has simply prevented me from taking street drugs for the past year! This is why tapering off Suboxone is such a bitch for most people, and why it is such a long, protracted process. You are not only coming off the Sub, but also your original DOC.
Does that make sense? As I said before, Dr Junig wrote about this somewhere on the forum, I wish I could find the post again as he explains it so much better than I could.
One final thing, Joseph please don't worry about seeming confrontational! I am BRITISH, and we fight among ourselves all the time!
I hope that this explains my thoughts on addiction a little better, but bear in mind that this is just MY PERSONAL BELIEF. Please make up your own minds on this matter, I have been wrong about many things before and would welcome your own reasoned arguments about this extremely contentious subject. After all, doctors have studied addiction for years and still can't agree among themselves about it!
Good luck everyone, and keep on the right path. WE WILL ALL GET THERE IN THE END!
Best wishes,
SneakyElephant.


First off I'm glad you aren't concerned about confrontation because thats not what this is about. Perhaps simply a difference of opinion or maybe even a play on words....

I personally believe an addict is an addict... Period. Yes most of us prefer one particular kind of drug over another but I don't see any useful reason to lable someone who is on subs [and previously preferred heroin] still a heroin addict masking their symptoms with subs.

You could even make a case to compare addicts [who prefer opiates] as being similar to alcoholics. An alcoholic who drinks whisky everyday till he passes out... is essentially no different than one who does the same with Vodka. Just as an addict who abuses oxys is categorically the same as one who does it with heroin.

Most addicts agree there are significant differences between a full agonist and partial agonist and the WD's are [generally speaking] less severe with the PA. I don't recall ever seeing anything online about a true addict successfully tapering from a full agonist. I was on methadone for more yrs than I want to remember and never knew of one person successfully tapering and staying off methadone. I'm sure that happens but it must be a rarity.

I think the major difference between somone abusing opiates and another in a subs program is the recovery aspect. An addict actively abusing heroin is not in recovery until he stops using heroin and gets some positive form of therapy/support. There are of course many types of theraputic support and subs is but one of them. Usually the more therapy one gets... the better the results.

And finally... I agree with what you say about being "cured". I don't think anyone is getting cured with subs... simply recovering from the God awful symptoms of active opiate abuse.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:35 pm 
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Suboxfreedom, you have hit the nail right on the head. The point is that Suboxone, methadone or whatever are NOT a cure for opiate addiction, merely an adjunct to getting clean, along with as you rightly point out, SUPPORT from people who know what they are talking about. No drug that replaces another can be remotely thought of as a cure for addiction, and I doubt that such a thing will ever exist. After all, heroin itself was at one time touted as a cure for morphine addiction, and we all know where that led.
As for tapering off a full agonist, I personally know several people who have done so in the days before subutex and suboxone treatment. Of course they went the cold turkey route as they had no other option. Indeed, most of them did so through force of circumstance, being thrown in prison with no recourse to medical treatment of any kind. All these people later went back to using, several years later in at least 3 cases. They all agree with me that they were still addicts even when physically clean of their DOC, and it didn't take much more than an offer of stuff from a third party to get them back on it. They also said that their habits came back very rapidly, usually within a couple of weeks they were back to their previous consumption levels.
Now this is all purely anecdotal, but I'm sure if you talk to enough 'old time' junkies, assuming you can find any still alive, that they will report similar stories
Despite being on suboxone for a year and counting I still consider myself very much a heroin addict, but the drug doesn't matter, it could quite easily have been oxy or any of the other drugs that people get a liking for (yes, alcohol too!).I live in constant fear of being in a using situation now, the temptation would be so hard to resist. It's a constant battle, let's have no illusions here.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:53 pm 
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SneakyElephant wrote:
No drug that replaces another can be remotely thought of as a cure...


I'm terribly uncomfortable with the idea that Suboxone is replacing one's former drug of choice (whatever that may be). I'm not disagreeing entirely and saying suboxone is a cure, because it's not. But it is a treatment for addiction, it is not a different or new addiction. Yes, our bodies are physically dependent on the subs, but I don't consider myself hooked on suboxone any more than I consider myself hooked on my anti-depressant or my beta blocker. An addiction is a whole pattern of behaviors and is different from dependence.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start a debate on the subject. But I felt I needed to respond. Maybe I'm just getting hung up on the semantics.

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