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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Hatmaker, you disagree that suboxone is taking away the withdrawals from your DOC? I wonder how it works then...hmmm perhaps there's a little suboxone fairy inside every tablet who makes it all better and steals our addiction away. I'm gonna set a trap and catch the little bugger, maybe we can torture him for the answers.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:38 pm 
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I'm so sorry Hatmaker, that was very rude of me and I apologise unreservedly. I just don't personally believe that we stop being addicts just because our physical symptoms have gone. There is a huge mental factor to addiction, as I said in a previous post. And I STILL think that if you were to be a non-opiate user who took suboxone for a year then quit, you would probably suffer, but not nearly as much as someone with even 6 months of prior opiate addiction who also quit using sub.The withdrawals from their original DOC would be added to their misery. Suboxone does not make us into non-addicts,even with the best counselling there is. Just look at how many people go back to using, even after successfully detoxing and being clean for years. It's all in the mind once the physical side has been put to rest.
Anyway as I keep saying, this is only MY OWN OPINION.....I'm not asking anyone to fall at my feet and worship, I have been wrong so many times in my life. That's why I'm here for God's sake!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:47 pm 
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You know what, my response stands. And you're damn right to apologize. That was beyond rude.

I responded to one portion - the wording you used. I even said outright that I wasn't disagreeing entirely. But you ignored all that, didn't you?

I refuse to hijack this thread, so if you choose to be snarky and sarcastic again, you can take it to PM or do it on your own.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:01 pm 
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I still don't understand what you're saying Hatmaker, is the suboxone replacing the drug or not? If not, why aren't you suffering withdrawals? What possible use is it?
And as for your other comment, yes I was rude as I said, but one apology should be enough for anyone.
however...
I'M SO VERY SORRY FOR BEING RUDE AND INSENSITIVE HATMAKER, I WON'T DO IT AGAIN


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:26 pm 
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.....all the craziness that happens when I am at work.

I see what both parties are saying. I agree with SneakyElephant because I agree the sub isn't taking away the addiction entirely. But after having withdrawn from oxycontin and from subs both in an abrupt fashion......I don't think I was withdrawing from oxycontin at the same time. I mean...withdrawal from oxycontin is TOTALLY INHUMAN and withdrawal from Subxone abruptly is only PARTIALLY INHUMAN. Both still inhuman mind you.

So is the little suboxone fairy running around in my brain stealing away my addiction? To some extent he is. He is because he took away all my using friends. He took away all my pattersn of behavior that got me high. He gave me opportunity to have other things to live for that I cherish. He showed me that I can live and I can have a life. Although I didn't have to torture my suboxone fairy to give me answers he was kind enough to share.

And...on the other hand, what is a cure? When I was diagnosed with my other physical condition I cried because I was so happy to know what the hell it was. He told me not to get too excited because it wasn't curable. If they had a pill for that condition that would put it in total remission so long as I took that pill, HOT DAMN I'd be calling it a cure. Really I suppose it would be an effective treatment but to me it would be a cure. So here is where the semantics come in.

If there was a pill that you could take that cured ANY and ALL impact from Aids, i.e. you won't get sick or die from it and you can't spread it so long as you take this pill. I'll be damned a lot of people would call that a cure. So would that little Aids fairy be taking away all the Aids? Kind of when you can't share it with anyone and it can't hurt you or impact you any longer.

So I do kind of think suboxone is a bit of a cure if you take it as prescribed every day of your life. If you quit you could just be screwed like me :-)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:25 am 
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SneakyElephant wrote:
Suboxfreedom, you have hit the nail right on the head. The point is that Suboxone, methadone or whatever are NOT a cure for opiate addiction, merely an adjunct to getting clean, along with as you rightly point out, SUPPORT from people who know what they are talking about. No drug that replaces another can be remotely thought of as a cure for addiction, and I doubt that such a thing will ever exist. After all, heroin itself was at one time touted as a cure for morphine addiction, and we all know where that led.
As for tapering off a full agonist, I personally know several people who have done so in the days before subutex and suboxone treatment. Of course they went the cold turkey route as they had no other option. Indeed, most of them did so through force of circumstance, being thrown in prison with no recourse to medical treatment of any kind. All these people later went back to using, several years later in at least 3 cases. They all agree with me that they were still addicts even when physically clean of their DOC, and it didn't take much more than an offer of stuff from a third party to get them back on it. They also said that their habits came back very rapidly, usually within a couple of weeks they were back to their previous consumption levels.
Now this is all purely anecdotal, but I'm sure if you talk to enough 'old time' junkies, assuming you can find any still alive, that they will report similar stories
Despite being on suboxone for a year and counting I still consider myself very much a heroin addict, but the drug doesn't matter, it could quite easily have been oxy or any of the other drugs that people get a liking for (yes, alcohol too!).I live in constant fear of being in a using situation now, the temptation would be so hard to resist. It's a constant battle, let's have no illusions here.


The history of addiction is interesting to me too. If you study it in depth you will find opiate use/abuse has existed since the begining of recorded history. One of the hidden truths is how much the military has used drugs as way to get the rank and file ready for battle. The romans, huns, japanese, chinese, americans and many other armys have made sure drugs are readily available for those who need or want them.

In the civil war, wounded veterans went home with drug addictions from medical treatment. Tens of thousands were addicted to medicinal opiates.

And in recent history... the country fighting on their own turf, has made sure their enemy has drugs easily available to them. This is true in Iraq and Afganistan and was also true in Vietnam. It didn't help that these particular areas were already at or near major centers of growth and distribution.

Over half of my platoon used drugs in Vietnam. The "friendly" Vietnamese would sell anything you wanted along every road where supply convoys traveled... and the domestic workers brought it into most of the base camps. You could buy a vial [about a gram] of 98% pure heroin for about $3.00 American Money or MPC.

We are currently a part of a new era of treatment history with regards to suboxone. Methadone was the preferred drug replacement treatment begining in the early 1970's. I was first placed on a methadone program in 1973 at the Miami VA. Suboxone has evolved from that. I wonder what will be said about subs 50 yrs from now what will be the next new drug to treat addiction? You can bet the pharmacuticals are working hard on this because the market will always be there....


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