It is currently Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:52 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 87 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:18 pm 
I wanna talk about something that i've found really helpful for myself. This will be something a lot will disagree with but then again, some may agree. Who knows but before i start i would like to say, WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY IS "MY" EXPERIENCE AND I AM NOT LOOKING TO BE BASHED OR HATED FOR WHAT I SAY. THANKS!!

Ok here it goes. So, i've been taking sub for 20 months now. Not one relapse or anything. Doing pretty good actually. Well, i've been through many stages in my recovery. Many were not so pleasant but for the most part, i've been ok. Well, just very recently i made a huge change in the way of my thinking. I realized that i was literally obsessing myself with this whole recovery idea and sub in general. A few conversations i've had with people have really opened my eyes to many many things and made me see things from a lot different perspective. I was literally waking up every day and spending the whole day on this website reading and responding etc. etc. Basically everything to do with sub and recovery was on my mind 24/7. It was just too much. I caught myself becoming very depressed and constantly obsessing over the fact that sub just was not working for me anymore. I was putting way too much thought into it. Since my new way of thinking, i have removed myself from this enviroment and started doing things other than obsessing over sub and recovery all day long. I actually feel like myself again. The obsession had me at a point where i would get so pissed off if i didnt get proper absorption or if i didnt get the proper relief that i used to get from the medication. Well, i've taken myself out of the obsession and now all the sudden my life has gotten so much better. I dont obsess over the fact that the medication does not work like it used to. I dont sit here on this site all day long. Im putting my attention on my life an not all these things i was obsessing about. It has made all the difference in the world!!

I will always be grateful for this medication as it has truly saved my life. However, my life does not have to revolve around this stuff 24/7 and this site almost made me feel like i had a false sense of reality. Like everything about sub was just oh so positive and how great it is etc. etc. Well, it is great but this med has flaws just like any other med. People can say all day long that it will work the same in 3 years as it did the first time you took it. For me, that is absolutely not true!! In my opinion, their are so many things that arent true about this med. This site honestly scares me. In my opinion, it puts sub up on this pedistal like its the cure all and the final answer to recovery when its not. It may be for some people but not for all. I believe it depends on the person. AGAIN I AM SPEAKING FOR MYSELF AND FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE. I value this site with all my heart but i am really beginning to question the motives of it. Example: I'll admit i am guilty of this as i got wrapped up in the vibe of the site myself but, anytime anyone says anything negative about a side effect of sub or absolutely anything negative at all about sub, they get shot down and damn near accused of lying or as if their crazy to think what they think. As if their complaints just cant be!! Well, i do understand that their are some people who will come on here bashing sub making up false this and false that but their are people who come here that really do go through these unwanted side effects and even they get shot down an made to feel as if they are crazy for feeling the way they do. I dont get it!! Is this site so pro suboxone that you cant possibly say anything other than positive things or you will be hated on or dismissed?

I have hesitated in posting all this because i know someone is gonna try to say its a violation of rules or get deleted etc. etc. Well, if speaking the way i feel and me telling the complete truth about how i feel is a violation, then im not so sure this site is for me. I really hope that i dont get banned for speaking the truth about how "I" feel. Again i value this site but i've had to remove myself from it for a bit because my mind was not very healthy obsessing about this stuff all the time. I will continue taking sub and have no intent at the moment of stopping it, at least until i get a better aftercare plan. I would love to continue to be a member of this site and pray i dont get banned but if i do, it will only prove my point that im trying to make. All this is said with 110% respect and no offense meant to anyone. Hopefully none of this will be taken the wrong way. Anyways, i guess i will see what happens from here. peace


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:07 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:59 pm
Posts: 1039
I can identify with the first part of what you are saying. Sometimes I have felt that I'm spending too much time reading, thinking and talking about Sub and addiction to the point where it's almost obsessive. I guess that's addict behavior in a way. I'm glad you're getting out and doing other things and getting your mind off of it more.
As far as your second point. I think many of us ARE defensive of Suboxone, especially when people come on the site and say it's substiting one drug for another. I think many have felt judged by their doctors, pharmacists, family members and partners so we want to dispel the myths about ORT.
As far as people being told they're crazy for reporting side effects, or being hated for saying anything that's not positive about Sub, I guess you would have to give some examples. Just this week I posted at length about feeling that Sub supresses my emotions (which I think is a pretty serious side effect) and no one said a single unkind word to me about it.
I hope you have felt supported here. I have seen you give a lot of helpful and insightful comments to others, so I hope you will stay on the forum. And if you feel that someone is being responded to unfairly or negatively, please point it out.
Take care,
Lilly


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:21 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Wisconsin
I guess I have to agree with Lilly. As I ready through your comments, I found myself wondering what you might be referring to. Some examples - even generic might help me and other readers to understand. It's one thing to bash Sub here, but I guess I have not see people who report side effects, etc. being told they are violating the rules. Since I don't know what you are referring to I am forced to guess. That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning some of the things that get posted. Suboxone and medicine has a lot to do with science and science has very little to nothing to do with "feelings". For example, someone may have lost their hair since starting Suboxone, and they may feel that their hair loss is due to taking Suboxone. I guess I don't see anything wrong with questioning that, and in fact I see a whole lot wrong with letting a statement like that stand unquestioned. NO - NO ONE has stated they lost their hair because of Suboxone (at least I have not seen it) I'm just using it as an example, because I have read some pretty close comments. It may seem like a fine line to some. I don't know, perhaps it is. But I guess the way I look at it is everyone has a complete right to their thoughts and feelings - just as everyone else has a right to state that they don't agree. I don't see that as bashing someone or putting them down or anything of the sort. I just see it as saying, look, I don't agree with you and I don't think Suboxone has caused your hair to fall out. I just personally see no problem with such an exchange at all. If someone feels put down or attacked, well, perhaps they need to work on and deal with that rather than expecting to be able to say anything that you want to say and have no one challenge it. The world just doesn't work that way.

Again, without specific examples, it's hard to see what you might be driving at. I can tell you for sure, I have no problem with what you are saying (or trying to say) and certainly don't think you should be removed for here or anything close for saying it. You have every right to your thoughts and opinions - just like everyone else - even if they don't agree.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:00 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 3:46 pm
Posts: 461
Location: South Florida
lifesaver wrote:
This site honestly scares me. In my opinion, it puts sub up on this pedistal like its the cure all and the final answer to recovery when its not.


I get more of a message from this site that we need to have a plan whether it's meetings or a counselor or therapy along with the medication. I totally agree that obsessing over this website and suboxone itself is not healthy- I have noticed it in my life as well. Ideally for me, I take my suboxone in the morning and try to forget about it (although that doesn't always happen) and focus more on coping methods for life's challenges due to being an addict and using drugs to cope for so long. I learned that from this site as well as many other valuable things.

:)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:09 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Buffalo New York
This is an interesting thread because I can agree with a lot of everything said by LifeSaver, but at the same time I do disagree with a few things. But I myself call it being REAL. I could sit here and say nothing but great things about SUBOXONE but what is that really doing for an addict looking for help I ask myself all the time? Yes suboxone saved my life yes it gave me a 2nd change but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have negative side effects. Like my thread I started “EMOTIONLESS” I got a little angry I’m not goanna lie because 99.8% of the people told me oh it’s not SUBOXONE ITS YOU! Do know what it is like to have a whole web site tell me I’m crazy and there is no way that SUBOXONE is doing this to me I felt terrible. But the next day I log on I got 8 PMs from different members thanking me saying they fell the same way but read a lot of the post and didn’t want to say anything because they were scared of being bashed for saying how they really feel. WHAT HAS THIS SITE COME TOO IF PEOPLE ARE SACERD TO TELL THE TRUTH??????????????????

I guess what I am trying to say is how the hell are we suppose to help people if we can’t tell them how we really feel because we are scared to say one negative thing about suboxone here now a days. And I know ill lost some respect for saying some of the things I said here but we can’t help anyone if all they read is positive things about SUBOXONE because we are giving addicts false hope!

As of obsessing on recovery that could be a great thing for some people and not so good for others but your obsessions can only go as far as youll let them!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:05 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
First of all, no one is going to ban you for having and expressing your opinion. I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Secondly, I agree with Donh and Lilly. Just because people disagree - and they, too, have the same right to express their opinions - it doesn't necessarily mean anyone is bashing someone for having those differing opinions. One person's disagreement isn't an indictment of another person.

Finally, as for getting too wrapped up in this site and thinking too much about sub and addiction, I agree 100% with that. I think we all go through periods of time where we have to back away and try to see life for what it is. I try to take my sub and forget about it. I think it's very smart to make sure that we have all the other "normal" things in life to focus on as well.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:34 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:03 pm
Posts: 991
I think the difficult part with side effects and suboxone is that as addicts, we are very sick people. Some sicker than others depending on how far they are into their disease at the time. We aren't in person and don't know one another on a personal level. Any time I hear someone state emphatically that suboxone causes X,Y,Z effect and they are positive of it without giving an explanation as to how they logically deduced it to suboxone, I am skeptical. Rightfully. Because chances are, it is your addict mind playing tricks on you. So one should expect people to respond by suggesting other potential causes of the side effect. Keep in mind we are speaking in VERY generic terms right now because we are absent specific examples.

When it comes to emotions and suboxone, I am sorry, but there is just no way of knowing for certain and I don't care how positive someone is. Use the original poster as an example. She very well could have blamed suboxone for her depression since she in fact had felt depressed since starting suboxone. But then she decided it was other behaviors causing that, changed the behaviors, and now she is feeling better. Here is what is difficult. When you get on suboxone, you do so after years of drug abuse (masked and drug induced emotions). Most of us became addicted because we didn't deal with or manage emotions well to begin with. So stating one is different on suboxone .....than what? Than being in active addiction? I should hope so. Than before that? How old were you before that and what was going on in your life? It's been YEARS for most of us. I can't really REMEMBER what things were like 7 years ago. I don't think anyone told BBoy that he was "crazy". I think people gave their own experiences and gave their own suggestions of what it could be. Either way, stating that you have an unwanted side effect doesn't necessarily equate to needing to be off suboxone either and when people are running full speed in that direction without stopping to really think, I get concerned. Rightfully. Point being is that the disease is cunning and I would much rather be on a site where people will question my disease than where they don't. If you are personally feeling attacked at a particular time, I suggest putting it right in the thread because this generic post is quite difficult to address.

I agree with several others in that I haven't seen anyone getting attacked on here for having an opinion.

I also agree we all go through phases with the site. I generally read it while I drink coffee in the morning and when I get home to wind down. The rest of the time I get on with my business. I have taken breaks from the site almost entirely. I blame none of it on the site itself or the people here. It has more to do with me and what is going on for me at the time. I think it's important to remember that this "site" can't MAKE you feel anything. You may feel something because of the site however.

Cherie

_________________
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

- Winston Churchill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:23 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:28 pm
Posts: 134
Just a general observation not based on the OP......I have followed a couple sites where the tendency is towards total support of almost anything. I think the key issue is honesty about our own experiences. If someone comes on with something like "I have studied suboxone extensively and have decided that I'm gonna do a x-day taper using benzos and bupe I buy from a friend, plus weed (don't have a problem with it), etc. I have a very strong desire to quit and know myself, etc....this time will be my last problem......

Question: is being supportive of that scenario helpful? Anyone can go online and find validation for the most ridiculous garbage. There is a saying in AA about "killing someone with kindness" that is quite true.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Lifesaver
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:07 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:59 pm
Posts: 993
Location: Carson City, Nevada
Hey, I just wanted to give you a (virtual) hug for posting that because I know you are worried about offending people but when someone comes on and is honest about something like this, it breaks the ice and makes it way easier for other people to open up and talk about it. There's no reason in the world that you would be banned or your post deleted. I've read the forum rules several times. You were very, very polite and emphasized that it was your experience. I have noticed there is a general defensiveness when it comes to some topics, like the 'Emotionless' one. It's unfortunate. Like Bboy said, I've gotten a number of PMs talking about stuff like this that people are afraid to post on the forum. Things like, "yeah, I'm going the a whole lot of stuff with Sub and I cannot post about it, etc. etc." As long as people are polite and respectful, they should be able to discuss anything without worrying that there will be any backlash against them for discussing their personal experience. I have so much respect for many of the things you just owned. You owned being guilty of getting wrapped up in the vibe yourself. (I'm guilty too, BTW!) You owned obsessing over the forum and needing to go focus on your real life and you explained how much doing so has helped you feel better. Lifesaver, you have to understand that people really relate to these sorts of honest posts, even people who don't respond directly on the thread. It helps people also go, "Hey, yes, I'm doing that too!" I guess I feel strongly that people should be able to say whatever is on their minds directly on the forum and not have to feel like they have to confine it to private messages so they don't risk offending someone. My favorite thing about this forum has always been the giant range of experiences and perspectives. It's what differentiates this forum from others. People can come on here and hear the good AND the bad, and they should be able to. Suboxone is like any other drug. It's got benefits and its got drawbacks. Referring back to the 'Emotionless' thread, when someone comes on here and talks about that sort of thing and then is told it's not a result of Suboxone or whatever, well, where are they supposed to go with that? I mean, people know what their experiences are and their experiences are the same regardless of whether they are included in the list of possible side effects or not. The side effects to Suboxone in no way make it a 'bad' drug. They are just part of the reality of taking Suboxone, and everyone's experiences are different. This drug is still quite new, and I think the best thing we can do is to encourage people to be honest, listen to what their saying and try to learn from them, and keep an open mind.

Lifesaver, you are awesome for being so honest and just laying it out there on the table. I'm so happy to hear that you examined what was going on in your life and what you needed to change and then you went out and changed it! You are putting effort into your recovery and that's what will keep you clean. God Job!!!

laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:33 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:47 am
Posts: 130
i understand where everyone is coming from when they say that they obsess over recovery when posting on this site. I for one respect that opinion but i know that i enjoy coming on this site. I enjoy giving people advice adn sharing my advice, its almost like going to an AA meeting or talking to my therapist. For me this site is like maintenance work. I actually enjoy posting and stuff and i dont answer a post unless its something i want to respond to. I understand that you can get obsessive about this site and recovery and all of it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:22 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:03 pm
Posts: 991
I think that people need to take a step back when they fear posting and ask themselves if they fear being "attacked" or do they fear differing opinions. I don't read every single post/thread on here, but it has been a VERY long time since I saw anyone getting "attacked" or "kicked off" for their responses. It is an online forum and you can't expect that you will always like the responses you receive. But like an AA meeting, take what you want and leave the rest. You aren't going to change people. Though there is certainly nothing wrong with posting your feelings about it.

Laddertipper - I agree with you whole hearedly that the experience still is what it is. Whether the sub is causing it or not. But making the determination that it IS the suboxone or not is a big deal because generally speaking, it substantially changes the behaviors one takes to resolve the problem. I didn't see anyone calling BBoy "crazy" although I can understand how one might feel that way. I think if that is the case, then the poster right THEN should post that is how they feel. Then people have the opportunity to clarify their statements.

And dare I say that some things that FEEL VERY REAL and ARE VERY REAL are in fact, in your head. It is called the disease of addiction. When you start hating the people who keep you sober or start hating the medication that set you free or start talking like you think you aren't an addict anymore, the very first thing you should be asking yourself is whether or not that is just the disease talking and manipulating you into getting high again. The concern I have is when someone is displaying these behaviors yet isn't even mentioning or considering that it might be the disease of addiction fucking with their heads. It may NOT be. But if you aren't asking the question you can almost certainly guarantee that it IS and you are about to go downhill fast if you don't catch it. When others point this out, they aren't trying to be assholes or say you are crazy. They are merely saying they are addicts too and they are just as fucked up as you are and if it was them, they would be asking themselves these questions first.

I agree with Moman on this one that you can absolutely "kill someone with kindness".

Take what you want and leave the rest. Be humble. There is a place for all opinions in this world. Even bad ones. There is growth in learning to turn the other cheek and in biting your tongue. Without diversity, we would be no where in this world.

Cherie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:28 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:28 pm
Posts: 134
It sounds wonderful....having everyone give us high fives and tell us how great we are doing. But that won't help anyone recover from this illness. I learned the hard way about my endless ability to be in denial, and that is why I need to keep in constant, face-to-face, with others in recovery who know me....and aren't afraid to be honest. I enjoy forums, but anyone can *be* anything they want online.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:37 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
Lifesaver,

I know I agree with the great majority of what you said. I too have felt that it was not wise to discuss certain aspects of suboxone and it's side-effects for fear of the attitude I would receive back. I can't site specific examples without going back and reading hours upon hours of posts and I don't feel I need to cite any specific examples anyway. I know at times I have felt that certain comments about a side effect of suboxone were met with a skeptical attitude. Sometimes it was stronger than a skeptical attitude.

I think we all have to remember that suboxone is a powerful partial agonist. It's going to have it's side effects. It's going to treat different people differently. I know when I quit taking sub I took an absolute shit kicking. That kind of experience certainly seems to NOT be the norm for quitting suboxone, but no one can tell me I didn't get my ass handed to me during my wd. There are other people on this site who quit at a much lower dose, there are yet others who quit at a much higher dose than I was at. None of their stories line up with mine though. To me, it's no big deal. Suboxone had a greater hold on me due to my mental and physical state. Actually, I'm kind of glad I had it so hard. Those memories serve as a constant reminder to me to never pick up opiates again.

Suboxone is like any other medicine on the market in that it has a list of potential side effects. Some people experience few, if any, of those side effects. Some people experience a lot of the side effects, why this is I have no idea, but I absolutely believe that Suboxone has the potential to give the user side effects. Some of those side effects are fairly conventional, some are not. Are the unconventioal side effects not due to sub?? Hell, I don't know, but I'm sure the poor guy experiencing those side effects wouldn't like to hear someone say it's all in his head. Just because his symptom doesn't appear on the great Reckitt list of side effects doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't experiencing a side effect of suboxone that was never identified. Do some people blame their hair falling out on suboxone, sure. Do I think suboxone has anything to do with that, no. We're always going to have people visiting this site who are pretty far "out there".

Now, we've all seen the screwballs who come to this site from time to time spewing hatred for everything Suboxone related. I am NOT supporting those people. They are obviously here to stip up crap and that's not cool in my book. I'm really talking about the members who are genuinely looking for help, they put themselves out there with a question about suboxone and sometimes the responses are not as constructive as they could be. I guess that's all I was trying to say, it just took me a 1/2 hour and a thousand words to spit it out.

I know this without a doubt, Suboxone saved my sorry ass!! I think Suboxone is a wonder drug for opiate addicts. If I had it all to do over again, I would choose suboxone again and again.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:50 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:59 pm
Posts: 1039
I actually thought the "Emotionless" thread was a pretty good discussion. While some felt it could not be a result of the Sub, others (like myself) felt that it WAS a side effect of Sub. I feel badly that people PM'd you, BBoy, in response to that because they didn't feel comfortable posting about it. I would love to see those people post, so that I and others could benefit from their insights and experience.
I think the threads that have several different viewpoints are the most interesting and informative.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:04 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
Very well said, Jackcrack. You took the words right out of my mouth. And as usual, your responses are very well-written and very thoughtful. I think you're right in that some people (obviously not all) don't like to hear differing opinions at all and take that as something personal, when it fact it is nothing of the sort. Everyone talks about their own right to their opinion, but when a differing one comes along, all of a sudden that person who disagreed doesn't have the same right to their opinions and it is misconstrued as an attack or something personal when it is simply differing viewpoints.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Jackcrack
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:30 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:59 pm
Posts: 993
Location: Carson City, Nevada
Well, actually I didn't say that anyone called Bboy crazy. I absolutely can see why he would perceive it that way. This is where the frustration comes in, though, for people like me who are as positive as anyone can ever be that they've suffered a significant change to their emotions over time while on Suboxone. I know maybe this part is confusing, but I didn't start off going on Suboxone for opiate addiction. I went on it to AVOID opiate addiction because I'm a recovering alcoholic. So, my perspective on how my emotions have been altered has not been distorted by the disease talking to me or manipulating me to get high again, when that isn't how it started to begin with. I don't expect anyone to understand why this is all so obvious to me unless they themselves have gone through a long duration Suboxone treatment and then are weaning or have weaned off it. As frustrating as it can be for other people to say it may be all in my head or my addiction messing with me, I have to consider that if they haven't gone through it yet, they have no way of identifying with me. I am as certain that Suboxone slowly blunted my emotions as other people are that films or tabs taste bad or that Suboxone makes them tired. All I ask for is that people keep an open mind about these subjects and not decide right now whether or not Suboxone can or can't cause certain side effects. I don't need anyone to conclude that Suboxone can alter a person's emotions or do anything else for that matter. I would certainly appreciate for people to recognize that it isn't an impossibility and that it may very well NOT be all in my head. And I feel like the side effects that are not generally recognized at this point in time are the ones that are so important for me to post about because the bottom line is that we are all still learning.

laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:20 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:03 pm
Posts: 991
Laddertipper - you didn't say anything about BBoy being "crazy"....HE DID.

Here is the part that I think gets missed. When I read BBoy's thread, I am not seeing anyone telling him it's all in his head. I'm seeing people say it's a complicated issue, sharing their own experiences, and bringing up some very good points in both directions. Mind you I haven't re-read the thread. I just don't recall it being an attack on anyone or mean in any way.

As much as YOU are POSITIVE that suboxone blunted your emotions, as far as I understand, you say so BECAUSE of how you felt while tapering which in itself is an emotional process. As much as it may be frustrating to YOU that people don't automatically buy into your own certainty, it may be frustrating to others who notice that you completely disregard the fact that you can't measure how you felt on suboxone with how you feel tapering because neither can be considered a "baseline measurement". Can you say "I have stronger emotions while tapering than I had at higher doses of suboxone"? YES. Can you say "I have stronger emotions off suboxone than on suboxone"? No. Not really because you didn't take a baseline from before. Something led you to decide to go on suboxone. If you were 100% and doing well, you wouldn't start a new drug. So something had to be gong on at the time and I suspect emotions may have been involved no?

I am sorry but if you have alcoholism, you have the same disease really. It doesn't act much differently in one over the other. So there is ALWAYS going to be a concern that there may be distortion and this is exactly what I was talking about when I said I get concerned when people start talking like they don't have a disease process. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. I don't know you. But to me it is a red flag to watch out for in someone. If I point this out to someone and ask if that could be going on and their response is "no - absolutely not" as opposed to "well I don't think so because........." I get even more concerned. As an addict, I am very rarely ever CERTAIN I don't have a disease process taking place.

I have gone through long term suboxone maintenance and gone off suboxone. So does that mean I earn the right to comment or have an opinion? You say that you only want people to recognize it isn't impossible that suboxone slowly blunted your emotions. I don't think it is impossible. I think your measurement tool is inaccurate and I think your confidence in measuring your own emotions is inaccurate. I don't think it is in your HEAD that you feel your emotions are stronger during the weaning process. I suspect they in fact may be. I just don't think this leads to the conclusion that suboxone slowly blunted your emotions either. I'm not saying it isn't possible, nor did I say it wasn't possible in the other thread. I don't recall ANYONE saying it wasn't possible. I just saw several people reporting varying experiences.

As much as you would like people to acknowledge the possibility that it isn't all in your head, can YOU acknowledge that your confidence may be too high? Because those who had differing opinions really only seemed to offer that. I didn't see anyone say it is all in your head or anyone say that to BBoy either. I mean who said it was all in BBoy's head and who said it wasn't possible for the experience to be real? Again, I haven't re-read the thread but I just don't recall this being the case.

Believe me when I say that I wonder about emotions on suboxone all the time. I wonder if I am missing something other people get in life. I wonder if I am unavailable to those I love. I think about it. I just don't think there is a whole lot of anything I can do about having to be on suboxone so for me it is more a process of acceptance and adjustment and taking the advice of Dr. Junig in his response to the emotionless post. This is my reality.

These are just my opinions.

Cherie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:06 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:59 pm
Posts: 993
Location: Carson City, Nevada
The reason I brought Bboy and whether or not he was called crazy to your attention is that you referenced it in the paragraph that you began with "Laddertipper". So, I (incorrectly I guess) assumed you were referring to something I said.

Look, there's absolutely no way at all I can convince anyone else of the validity of what I am saying. It's impossible. You mentioned that something must have led me to get onto Suboxone and that's true. That's why I explained my history with alcohol. I'd been sober (alcohol) for a little under six months and was doing very well when I fell off a ladder and was severely injured. Sometimes life is not fair. So, I had a bad injury and a lot of pain. I am certainly someone who buys into the belief that an addict is an addict. I needed pain relief and I was offered Oxy and then Methadone. Before I went either of those routes, I found out about Suboxone and the first doctor I saw explained that it was good for pain and that, being an alcoholic, I would almost certainly become immediately addicted to something as powerful as Oxycontin. I believed and still do believe he was right. I do not think I should ever take pain medication unless I suffer some unforeseen injury and even then I would not trust myself with it or ever think I could take it and not get addicted. I've been sober, as long as you count being on Suboxone as sober, which I do, for over five years. I've done therapy, individual and couples, and I've gone to hundreds of meetings, had commitments, got a sponser, worked the steps, started my own meeting and acted as secretary, and guided other people, especially those who needed to take psych meds. My point is that I've worked really, really hard in my recovery. It hasn't been a passive process for me and I do not take relapsing on alcohol or taking any other drug lightly whatsoever. I'll never, ever be able to drink again and I'm at risk of becoming addicted to other drugs and I always will be, which is WHY I started Suboxone. Emotions weren't involved. Pain WAS involved, as well as a history of alcoholism. I am an addict and I own that 100%; but if I own being an opiate addict, I'm just telling a lie!!! BTW, it's much easier to just go with the flow and pretend I am an opiate addict, because I'm on this medication and so it's assumed I must be. As far as 'baseline' measurements, I can see what you are getting at and why you would bring that up. However, no, I am not just saying that I believe my emotions have been blunted because of how I've felt while tapering. Over the years I spent on Suboxone, I changed a great deal from the person I'd been for my entire life up until my drinking problem took off (around 20). If you want a run down of how my drinking problem started, I could give you that, but I'll just say I had a few rough years of family discord and huge life changes that I didn't have much say over and it threw me through a loop. My baseline for measuring is THAT person (the one before my drinking), not who I feel I am right now during my w/d symptoms. Yet as I taper, specifically when I stabilize, I notice that I feel like my old self. I act like my old self. It's a strange sensation. I like to do the things I once liked to do.

Look, all I want here on this forum is for people to listen and keep an open mind. I have no clue at all what an opiate craving feels like, as I've never had one. Still, I don't meet mention of cravings with skepticism only because I cannot see it and it's not going on in my head. Just because I haven't experienced it does not mean it's any less real. I also want you to know that I can put myself in your shoes and imagine that hearing someone else say that Suboxone has blunted their emotions would make me feel a little uneasy because I know that regardless of whether or not Suboxone does have this effect in some people, the fact is that many people absolutely will be asking for a death sentence by deciding to discontinue it.

I am not a scientist or a doctor and what I'd most appreciate is an explanation of how Suboxone can affect the brain, besides relieving cravings. That is the main thing I'm after. I've called Suboxone detox places and they offer an obviously biased view (not all, but most of them) and they also sometimes use scare tactics, but they are trying to sell a product, which is rapidly getting off Suboxone. It's hard to determine whether a source that biased is useful at all. Part of me wonders if the fact that I wasn't specifically addicted to opiates has made me more likely to suffer from emotional side effects. I really do not know. That's why I'm on here. To get more clarity on my situation and to support other people in theirs. I don't want to start a big debate. I'd rather keep it to myself entirely if it comes down to that, and frankly, maybe for now that's just what I should do.

Regardless, I sincerely appreciate your input Jackcrack and I promise it does not go in one ear and out the other. I will think about all that you have said.

Peace,
laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:08 am 
@Lifesaver, we've talked plenty through PMing and as you know I feel the same way as you. I just dont know what to do about sub anymore, I wish I would of chosen methadone like I originaly was going to but decided to give sub a chance, now when i go to switch to methadone at some point Im most likely gonna get hassled by the clinic because "im not in active addiction anymore". I wish addicts would just be given a stable dose of whatever opiate they were addicted to by a doctor and have it be treated just like sub treatment. Ive said it before but suboxone to me is like having a good size opiate habit with all the drawbacks of miserable withdrawal except with all the "good" parts of the opiate sucked out of it. It just doesnt make sense, the only reason the law allows sub is because they know addicts get no good feeling out of it, they could give a shit if it causes strong dependance and withdrawal they just dont want anyone to feel good. I dont mean to rant but Ive been having nothing but bad days for a long time coming now and im just wishing I never would of gotten on suboxone, this is just my opinion and my experience so I hope no one gets offended.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:52 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
FYI - On the "Emotionless" thread, Dr. Junig spoke about the effect sub has on the brain. It makes a lot of sense and for those who haven't read it, I would suggest that they do. And maybe even re-read it.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 87 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group