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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:33 am 
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Subowned I know how to fix your problem. Every day or so do something for somebody who has nothing. For example give a bum a fresh chicken sandwich or take some old person in a newspaper. Doing those things will make u relize how good you have it and it will humble you and make you feel better than you can imagine. Or just smart off and don't take any advice. Why aren't you on methadone I forgot?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:52 am 
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I'm sorry that I continue to find this funny. I would go into another kind explanation of that but you would just make another accusation against me. I haven't said anything in that last post that is mean so I don't know why you are crying Laddertipper. You also keep accusing me of being angry. I think there may be (this means "possibility") projection taking place. I don't usually laugh when I am angry. Do you? Again, you seem to see what you want to see in the thread and you run with it. I have even gone so far as to ask you people the exact words you would have wanted to hear in this thread but none of you respond to that question either. I also asked for the exact examples of what was mean before and no one provides it.

Laddertipper - I would apologize for "bashing" you if I had actually engaged in such behavior but I have not and therefore have nothing to apologize for. You do seem to have some strong emotions. Again, I am not sure if that is a good thing or not and maybe you would benefit from seeing a therapist to get that checked out.

Anyways - I would explain it all again but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result and since it seemed to be missed the first through fourth time around it is likely to be missed again.

Romeo - I too would have to go back and re-read every post on this thread in order to let you know if I think there was anything specifically funny about your post and I really don't feel like it either. I absolutely will not apologize for finding this thread funny because it is funny in my opinion. So anyone who is waiting for that can stop holding their breath now.

However......if you find yourself irritated with this thread or angered by it then I suggest you re-read it word for word. Do not skim. When you are reading a thread written by someone you aren't sure you agree with or even like for that matter, read what they are writing with the most pleasant tone. Ask yourself if you could possibly be misconstruing anything that was written. Are you reading between lines that aren't there? Take the words that are written at face value. What are they literally saying? Then, try to answer some of the questions that may have been asked of you or of others. Are you able to answer them with factual information? Opinions? Notice the difference between those two things as you are thinking about them. How might this thread have been different if everyone was doing that as they read?

Cherie


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:53 am 
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I'm sorry that I continue to find this funny. I would go into another kind explanation of that but you would just make another accusation against me. I haven't said anything in that last post that is mean so I don't know why you are crying Laddertipper. You also keep accusing me of being angry. I think there may be (this means "possibility") projection taking place. I don't usually laugh when I am angry. Do you? Again, you seem to see what you want to see in the thread and you run with it. I have even gone so far as to ask you people the exact words you would have wanted to hear in this thread but none of you respond to that question either. I also asked for the exact examples of what was mean before and no one provides it.

Laddertipper - I would apologize for "bashing" you if I had actually engaged in such behavior but I have not and therefore have nothing to apologize for. You do seem to have some strong emotions. Again, I am not sure if that is a good thing or not and maybe you would benefit from seeing a therapist to get that checked out.

Anyways - I would explain it all again but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result and since it seemed to be missed the first through fourth time around it is likely to be missed again.

Romeo - I too would have to go back and re-read every post on this thread in order to let you know if I think there was anything specifically funny about your post and I really don't feel like it either. I absolutely will not apologize in amy meaningful way for finding this thread funny because it is funny in my opinion. So anyone who is waiting for that can stop holding their breath now.

However......if you find yourself irritated with this thread or angered by it then I suggest you re-read it word for word. Do not skim. When you are reading a thread written by someone you aren't sure you agree with or even like for that matter, read what they are writing with the most pleasant tone. Ask yourself if you could possibly be misconstruing anything that was written. Are you reading between lines that aren't there? Take the words that are written at face value. What are they literally saying? Then, try to answer some of the questions that may have been asked of you or of others. Are you able to answer them with factual information? Opinions? Notice the difference between those two things as you are thinking about them. How might this thread have been different if everyone was doing that as they read?

Cherie


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:45 am 
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Lifesaver - I agree that this thread made your original point. You couldn't have come up with any evidence better than what has presented itself here over the last few days.

I don't think there's anything funny about this. Maybe no one came out and said "it was all in your head", but it was the TONE and condecending attitude that made the responses so cruel. Honestly, Cherie, you say that laddertipper is closed minded, but look back at some of the wording and sarcasm of your posts and think of how you would feel if you were at the receiving end.
Earlier I said the "emotionless" thread was a good one, and it should have been. But this has gotten ugly, and Bboy, who was the one who originally posted his concerns on that thread seems to have given up on us. It's very disappointing.

I hope no one quits the forum over this. I beleive we can do better.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:06 am 
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JackCrack said, "However......if you find yourself irritated with this thread or angered by it then I suggest you re-read it word for word. Do not skim. When you are reading a thread written by someone you aren't sure you agree with or even like for that matter, read what they are writing with the most pleasant tone. Ask yourself if you could possibly be misconstruing anything that was written. Are you reading between lines that aren't there? Take the words that are written at face value. What are they literally saying? Then, try to answer some of the questions that may have been asked of you or of others. Are you able to answer them with factual information? Opinions? Notice the difference between those two things as you are thinking about them. How might this thread have been different if everyone was doing that as they read?"

If we could just get you to follow your own advice!! Now I see why you find everything so hilarious.

Holy Smokes, did I ever laugh hard when I read that last post of yours. I mean fall out of my chair laughing!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:12 am 
As i've already said and i'll say it ONE more time for clarification. THIS THREAD WAS MADE FOR NOTHING MORE THAN TO EXPRESS THE WAY I FEEL AND TO PROVE A POINT.

I HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL WITH BOTH THINGS I SEEK!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:07 pm 
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I noticed a Looooonnnngg thread and thought I'd wander by...

Hatmaker, you are right on with your comments about side effects. Romeo-- that is astute of you to point out the different length of side effects, but understand that many things affect what gets reported as a 'side effect' besides what actually happens. For example, the drugs.com site has their own bias. One person in the thread complains about a 'pro-suboxone bias' here-- I'll address that in a moment... but drugs.com has a strong bias in the opposite direction that comes through strongly on their forum (where I've been banned about a dozen times).

The next source of bias is in how the side effects are collected. Studies will list side effects that are mentioned by patients, or that are checked off on lists-- and there are huge differences in the results. The studies for the medication Pristiq, for example, list patient-reported sexual side effects of around 3%; if you list sexual side effects for studies of other antidepressants, even a third of the placebo group will report them! So comparing side effects from two studies is comparing apples to oranges; you cannot conclude much from the differences between them without really getting into the details about how the questions were asked and how the data was collected, filtered, combined, and shuffled.

As for bias HERE-- there is no editing of other people's posts, and any suggestion of that is simply silly. I repeatedly invite ALL opinions here-- including advocates of methadone or recovery programs. But I do NOT want to serve as a site for people to spread misinformation. If a person has information about harm from buprenorphine, please share it, and include the reference. But there is a phenomenon that every health practitioner is well aware of, that I do not want to become a distraction here-- and that is that people tend to focus on certain bodily sensations, and incorrectly attribute them to a variety of things. In some cases this would not be a big deal; let people go on about what they think is causing their headaches, regardless of whether there is any real connection.... but opioid dependence is a fatal condition, and I do not want to be part of chasing someone from a medication that might very well prevent his death.

Everyone thinks that sugar makes kids hyperactive, right? We know very clearly, from multiple studies, that it just is not so. And so if I had a site where people were going on and on about how stimulants don't treat ADD-- you just need to stop the sugar-- I would be allowing-- and promoting-- misinformation. Here, it is a more serious issue. The stakes are higher. So I ask everybody, moderator or not, to try to remember the difference between information that is reliable, vs that which is unreliable-- like self-reported symptoms.

I get nothing for taking a positive stance toward buprenorphine. I get nothing from the drug's manufacturer. My practice is full; I don't take new patients on Suboxone. If a few of my patients stopped Suboxone, I would then make more money by bringing in new people-- so if anything, my financial incentive is to get people to STOP Suboxone. In the last week I learned of two more deaths in people connected to patients of mine; one went off Suboxone and died from a heroin overdose two months later; the other was a teen who overdosed on heroin, who never took buprenorphine. THAT is the source of my 'proSuboxone attitude'. If anything comes along that works better, I will be 'pro THAT medication.'

Thanks, as always, to the moderators for helping keep things on track, accurate, and calm. And thanks to others who do the same. This site has one purpose-- to help opioid addicts. I'm always proud of the way things work here-- by the end of a thread, reason almost always prevails.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:47 pm 
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Dr. J.,

Thanks for clearing up the whole business of side-effects and how they are more often than not erroneously reported. Is there any reliable data available as far as Suboxone side-effects go? I ask because when someone does start suboxone, if a symptom pops up they could refer to the side effects and decide whether it's from suboxone or if it's not due to suboxone, they might want to get it checked out by a health care professional.

I used to visit the drugs.com website too. I did pick up on the bias and I got a little rude at times, but I never was booted. I'm going to have to go back and try harder next time!! :lol:

I wish that myself and every other member of this forum was as polite as you are. There would be no more "beefs" on this site at all.

Thank you for all the work you put into this forum. It has and will continue to be a part of my recovery and many others as well.

Ummm, go Pittsburgh? I know, I know, they are the wrong team, but I like them. :wink:


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 Post subject: Dr. J
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
Dr. J.,

Thanks for clearing up the whole business of side-effects and how they are more often than not erroneously reported. Is there any reliable data available as far as Suboxone side-effects go? I ask because when someone does start suboxone, if a symptom pops up they could refer to the side effects and decide whether it's from suboxone or if it's not due to suboxone, they might want to get it checked out by a health care professional.

I used to visit the drugs.com website too. I did pick up on the bias and I got a little rude at times, but I never was booted. I'm going to have to go back and try harder next time!! :lol:

I wish that myself and every other member of this forum was as polite as you are. There would be no more "beefs" on this site at all.

Thank you for all the work you put into this forum. It has and will continue to be a part of my recovery and many others as well.

Ummm, go Pittsburgh? I know, I know, they are the wrong team, but I like them. :wink:


Romeo took the words right out of my mouth, but I thought I'd chime in anyway. Dr. J, I would really, really appreciate as well if you could point me to a reliable source for Suboxone side effects. There are plenty of unreliable sources and googling it isn't very helpful. You will basically get what the manufacturer puts out and then a list of scary personal experiences, like "The hair fell off my head and grew out my ears and then I swallowed my eyeballs" LOL!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:35 pm 
hatmaker510 wrote:
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Once "stabilized" on sub and being on it for a number of months it doesn't have any effect at all, well except for negative side effects that is. Swapping bupe for opiate addiction is like swapping marjiuana for cigarettes, sure you still get to smoke but you aren't getting the effect you desire...(emphasis mine)


The underlined statement was presented as fact, when instead it should have been given as personal opinion. Please take care to avoid such statements in the future.
Personally, I don't believe these things occur in people in stable suboxone treatment. However, can these things occur in a person on suboxone who is not in healthy recovery?
.

I never said what I said was fact not opinion, I forgot to put the words "in my experience" into the quoted part I made a mistake sorry. Also I dont know if you are implying that I am not "in healthy recovery" but if you were that is completely false. I cannot control the outrageous cost of suboxone therefore my low dose is not my fault its just all I can afford. Second I do not just take suboxone and expect it to be a cure and do nothing else for recovery. I attend outpatient treatment, I go to 3 or more 12 step meetings a week and I am testing to get my GED so I can go back to school to better my life. I am not just sitting around taking suboxone and doing nothing else, so I dont get how I would be considered "not in healthy recovery" there isnt anything else I could do to work recovery besides taking a higher dose of sub which is not feasible unless Im on the PAP or am allowed generic subutex. Im not trying to be defensive but I get that way when it seems like I'm being told Im not working recovery when in fact I am.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:37 pm 
Laddertipper and Romeo:

I do want to say, you both honestly must have read my mind. I could not have said it better myself. I think you both pretty much covered what needed to be said so i'll just leave you all with this.

Wether any of you get my point i clearly made here or not, i fulfilled what my intent was with this thread. My mission has been accomplished. Understand what i mean or not. It is what it is and its been proven in this very thread. I have nothing else to say as its not very productive to keep saying the same thing over and over. I really wish people would just open their eyes and speak up instead of sittin back and allowing it to continue. I dont mind doing the speaking up but if nothing else comes from this thread, everyone should at least take the fact that you should not censor yourself out of fear of being bashed or criticized. Or even told your crazy, in other words. Hope everyone has a wonderful night!! peace


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Lilly - I am sorry you feel that way but I beg to differ. I re-read the beginning part of the thread and I didn't get sarcastic until this exact thread.

Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:50 pm

Anything prior to that which anyone construes as being sarcastic is inserting tone that isn't there. So like I said, go back and re-read it. Take out the tone you assume to be there. Am I sometimes arrogant? Quite possibly and I would have to say definitely following the post noted above. However, by the time I became sarcastic, I was repeatedly accused of saying things I had never said, didn't think, and wasn't doing so it was getting pretty funny by that point in my opinion.

This thread doesn't prove anything but I am pretty sure that several of you don't require the same level of "proof" as I do to draw conclusions so hey, see what you want to see. More power to you. I don't place a whole lot of stake in what people online think or don't think about me so you definitely won't see me crying.

I'm definitely glad that Dr. J was able to clarify the point.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Hey Jackcrack,

You said, " I don't place a whole lot of stake in what people online think or don't think about me... "

My question then is this, what the heck are you doing on an online forum then? If you don't place a whole lot of stake in what people online think about you, then why did you start a thread titled "Still Struggling"? I just read that whole thread and you sure do seem to "place a lot of stake in what people online think of you", especially when they agree with you!

In response to your last post, which was defensive, I found this written by you on Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:13pm---"I don't know why so many of you have written so many defensive sounding posts. Maybe it's because you are WRONG." Yeah, maybe you are just wrong with your latest defensive post!

Again, I refer you to my earlier post where I quoted you. I would love to explain it all again, but your own words seem to fit perfectly here, you said "Anyways - I would explain it all again but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result and since it seemed to be missed the first through fourth time around it is likely to be missed again."

Lifesaver, you are SO right that this thread proves that your point has indeed been made, you are 100% correct!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:36 pm 
I think this thread did in fact prove something, it proved that some people are struggling with suboxone and thats a good enough level of proof for me. I just dont understand why people get so defensive when someone says they dont like suboxone or that its not working well for them, everybody is different and therefore bupe or any medication is not going to work the same for everyone. Bupe is what it is, if it works for someone thats awesome I envy them actualy I would love it if I could feel relief from it but for me and some others it doesn't work very well. If I was doing good on sub I would have no reason to voice my discontent with it, its not anything Im imagining it IS causing side effects for me and I have no reason or any alterior motive to mention them im just being honest. I'm not gonna go around acting as if Im doing awesome when its not true. I dont get all upset when someone says how much of "a miracle drug" suboxone is and they are doing so well with it when thats not how it is with me so i dont see why anyone would get upset when I or anyone else say they arent doing well with it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:51 pm 
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Firstly, Suboxowned, when you quoted me you left out a HUGE part of what I said, which is at best disingenuous. I was referring to the qualities of addiction and if they could occur in people on suboxone treatment.

Secondly, asking people for support is not the same thing as hanging on to their opinion for approval. I might reach out and ask this site for their support or opinion on an issue I'm having, but it doesn't mean I necessarily care what they think OF me. There IS a difference. It's like throwing the fact that a person asked for help in their face. And that truly is NOT what this forum is for. Many of you have accused people of stifling opinions, but do you really want to stop a person in addiction recovery from asking for help? Because that's sure what it sounds like. There are posts here that ask for support and there are posts that simply want to explain their opinion (as well as many other kinds). Those two different kinds of threads should be self-evident. I'm appalled that anyone would suggest that because a person had a strong opinion on this thread that they shouldn't then reach out on another thread.

If any of you don't want a pro-suboxone forum, that's an issue within you, but it's not the problem with the forum. That has never been hidden. And if you are angry at a medication (how can you be angry at a pill?), that's certainly not the fault of that pill or the people who do well on it.

And lastly, thanks Dr. J for your typically well-reasoned response. It is always a pleasure to have your input.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:32 am 
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Hat,

I certainly do not want anyone in addiction recovery to stop asking for help. As evidence, I would submit my 400 plus previous posts. I think 99.995% of them show how I try to help anyone in addiction recovery through giving the best advice I can at that particular moment in time. The last thing I want is to hinder anyone on their road to recovery.

Now, as far as my last post, I can kind of see where you're going with your arguement. I think I can see how it could be viewed as you have read it. But, I also think it can be viewed as I originally intended. The original intent was to understand an apparently illogical set of events. If I didn't place much stake in what online people thought of me, I wouldn't ask for their advice or support, so when someone makes that statement, but also starts another thread looking for advice or support, I find that highly illogical.

Hat, I think this topic can be viewed both ways and unfortunately, this is sometimes the case with the english language.

I'm sure we could do a Bill Clinton and argue if is really is is, but to go over a post word by word isn't going to get us anywhere.

I view this particular topic as an illogical set of events. Does not compute sounds about right here.

Again, I absolutely do not want anyone in addiction recovery or active addiction, for that matter, to stop asking for help. If that's how anyone read that post, now you know what my original intent was.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:47 am 
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Romeo - Like I said before. Go back, re-read the entire thread, remove all sarcasm that doesn't exist, and then see if you can understand the point. The same point that Dr. J made where each of you responded kissing his ass like it was the first time this was ever said and it was said so much "differently". Yea......and if Dr. J sat on here and had to repeat himself 10x over he wouldn't be so nice the 10th time either. You don't argue with him because you don't want to get booted. Probably a smart move.

In terms of my other thread, you will note that I don't have a stance in that thread. I wasn't asking for anyone to agree or disagree with anything because I started it very neutral. I ended it very neutral. I am VERY grateful for their opinions and as you can see, I actively entertained each of their opinions and considered them. There is no answer to my questions yet but I do appreciate their opinions on my situation. I never asked them, nor do I have any idea how they feel about ME in general because that was never up for discussion. I find it funny that this fact has to be explained to you as well but whatever. You see what you WANT to see in things. This results in me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: and sometimes :roll: :roll: :roll: and sometimes I am just :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: because I can't believe IT.

I also can't help but not that being sarcastic doesn't mean I didn't have a point, or that I don't have a point still. It only means I was running out of patience. Not surprising if you combine the emotionless thread and this one together since that is really how they should be.

Oh....and since we are pulling from other threads, let's pull from the emotionless thread where Romeo mentions his love for a family member. This specifically made me laugh because no one said that people weren't feeling what they were feeling. They merely suggested the cause of those feelings could be from a variety of factors. Along these same lines, no one knows exactly what causes "love", but we know it exists. If someone was posting that they just felt they were numb and wasn't trying to adamantly conclude suboxone was responsible, they would probably get all the support in the world. The only people saying these emotions are only in your head is YOU.

Suboxowned - I guess the question I have about your statement is "who or where do I go to see where this defensiveness is because I didn't see it outside this thread and I don't get what any of you are talking about"? This is and has been the primary question since the current thread began.

I think we are all going to have to agree to disagree here because we just aren't getting anywhere with one another. Or at least that's where I am at with it.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:41 pm 
Whoa now!! You clearly took me agreeing with what he said a bit wrong. I only said the words i said because their are a few of you who will always come behind somebody an say, "you took the words right out of my mouth" or "i couldnt agree more" or" you must have read my mind" or "You took the words right out of my mouth so i'll just "chime" in a say one more thing." I DO disagee with what Dr. J said only because he did not see my true intent with starting this thread. So their i said it, i disagree and their is nothing wrong with disagreeing with something. As long as you do so constructively. Not criticize or throw condecending comments at people like "some" people around here do. See that kind of stuff right their. That may not be a word for word quote but its very similar to what i've seen. Jackcrack you been saying this whole time for someone to come along an "quote" you on whatever it is you say that is so out of line, well someone finally took the time to do so. An yes, i can honestly say they took the words right out of my mouth. I dont think i could have done it better myself. For you to say, you all are just agreeing with dr. J so you dont get booted, well uh no one should be getting booted for disagreeing with someone just because its their site. I respect him but i dont agree with what he said. My thread was not anti-suboxone. I've already mentioned a few times now what this threads purpose was so i want repeat it. If someone gets "booted" for disagreeing than something is wrong. I find it "hilarious" that you all are back peddling tryin to come up with all these educated post when really all your doing is driving my point right on to the finish line. Thats whats "hilarious." If you dont see it, then their must be some denial going on because its very clear, plain and simple to see. I know first hand that if you all the sudden dont quite jump for joy about suboxone or praise it to the moon, you are not as "welcome" on this site. I've been "friends" or so i thought i was with someone on this site and all the sudden my mind changed a little bit about things and that "friendship" wasnt their anymore. I want say no names because im not the kind of person to do something like that. They know who they are. I though they were my friend until i changed my thought on sub and then i got a completely different attitude from that person. I would quote what they said but it would then reveal who they are so i want do it. Like i said, they know who they are. I guess we were only "suboxone buddies." Once my views changed we couldnt be "friends" anymore. Thats bullsh$t in my eyes!! Thats not a real friend either. I've said this already and i will say it one more final time i hope, IM DONE COMMENTING ON THIS THREAD BECAUSE I SUCCEEDED IN WHAT I SEEKED. I MADE THIS COMMENT BECAUSE JACKCRACK CONCOCTED THE IDEA THAT I WAS ONLY AGREEING WITH DR. J SO I DONT GET BOOTED, WHICH IS NOT TRUE. Revert back to the top of this paragraph if you want too. Its a good explanation of why i commented yet again. peace. Hopefully i want get, booted for disagreeing. Oh no!! If i get "booted for not agreeing with something then something is wrong.


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 Post subject: Entertainment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:42 pm 
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I used to come to this site for information and share my experience with others who take sub or might want to consider suboxone. I think this thread has now offered me the gift of entertainment.......as well.

Jim


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:48 pm 
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Jackcrack, Thank You for all the laughs! It was so very interesting to be able to hear you say the same thing over and over and over again, while not understanding how your words apply directly to yourself. I do seem to sense a lot of a certain river in Egypt, I think it's called Da Nile (denial). Hey, I was there before too. It's not a fun place to be, I truly hope you find your way out soon.

I especially like how you brought my deceased father into the fold. That only serves to show everyone on this site how low you can sink and what kind of person you are! Did you think bringing my father up was going to bother me in the least? Since it came from somebody who I don't put a whole lot of stake in how they feel about me, it didn't bother me in the least. Can you say Backfire!

There's this guy I used to know who said we are just going to have to agree to disagree. It was code for he was giving up. Hey, that's cool with me, but I will miss the laughs. I SO looked forward to reading this thread every morning and laughing my ass off because certain posts are so Hilarious!!

Ah, good times, good times.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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