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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:52 am 
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Laddertipper - you are right that you can't convince anyone of anything but it seems to me that this was the point of Lifesaver's original post here since there isn't a single example provided of any attack or anyone telling anyone else anything is in their head or anything. So I actually take it more as an attack on those who weren't convinced accusing them of saying things are all in people's heads, etc. when no one said any such thing. An attack to avoid acknowleding some very valid points and opinions by essentially dismissing them all as mean when none of them were.

When I went off suboxone I HAD to find other ways of coping and entertaining myself because I had to keep myself busy so as not to think about my less than comfortable situation. There was a lot on my mind at the time. So I actively chose to take an interest in certain things and of course gravitated towards things I knew before. Very similarly, I quit smoking recently. What to do with all this extra time on my hands and these cravings? Oh....the things I knew from before. All the sudden I am quilting again and really enjoying it. I haven't actually made a quilt on my own since prior to suboxone. I have taken an interest in shopping again and going to the movies and have been thinking about school again. Also I have been working on my photo albums. Does this mean cigarettes blunted my emotions? Does someone else need to have gotten off cigarettes to be entitled to an opinion on this? If someone told you cigarettes were blunting their emotions you would laugh right? Or think it was all in their head? Dr. Junig hasn't gotten off suboxone but he certainly provided a pretty decent explanation of how this drug impacts the brain and the unliklihood that it is blunting emotions.

Furthermore, do you really think measuring your emotions by how you felt at age 20 and thinking THAT is the way you should be feeling is correct? Most 20 year olds I know are in fact pretty emotional people because they lack the wisdom that comes with age to calm down and relax. When I was 20 I was going to conquer the world. Everything was possible. At 34 I am pretty sure I am not conquering anything and realize everything isn't possible. Suboxone didn't change my views or my emotions. Life did. But suboxone allowed me to have that life where I could learn to self soothe through my emotions and where I could learn to calm down a bit. Suboxone allowed me to grow up. I don't think that is such a bad thing either. I am not emotionLESS but emotionally STABLE which also tends to lean towards less emotionAL.

I have one final thought on this topic. This is that this website was intended to be one where all the lies, misconceptions, and scare tactics about suboxone were revealed for what they are. It was supposed to be a place where people could get the truth. I like it that way.

Suboxowned - you are UNDERmedicated and you AREN'T READY for that. You wouldn't feel like crap if you had the right dose. At 4mg, you are absolutely correct that if you get the wrong absorbtion you won't feel as good. You are teetering on withdrawal all the time and only people who are ready to taper should be placed in that situation. You are in a unique situation though. I honestly have no idea how you have managed to make it this long like that.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:32 am 
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I again don't have as much time as I would like to provide a more detailed response. I also fear that some readers are not going to like what I have to say, but that has not stopped me in the past. I feel pretty strongly about the comments I am about to make and think some will agree while some will not and others will feel offended. But, that seems to be what we are talking about in the first place - isn’t it?

The thought that I had keep recurring as I read this, is I very much consider the person making the comments when I decide if I agree with them or not. Like it or not, we are not all the same. We don't all have the same life experience, education or even experience with addiction. Continuing with my "hair falling out due to Suboxone" example from a few days ago (since its one I have not yet seen here and hopefully is safe as no one should think that I'm talking about them) if I were to consider that Suboxone makes your hair fall out, I am also going to consider your background in providing that information. Let's face it; addicts often don't have a lot of other things going on in life. While Dr. J talks about the CEOs, teachers, lawyers, bankers and other physicians that he treats, I also see posts from a lot of young people. I see posts from people who have little to no work experience and no job. Some have no education beyond high school and sometimes not even that. They have a hard time typing out a coherent sentence. Yet, I am to believe that they have put rational thought, applied critical thinking skills, etc. to their hypothesis that "Suboxone makes your hair fall out". Again, I am not pointing to any specific person and will not do so. But anyone who finds themselves see a dozen people disagree with them, may have to consider that it really is them and not the rest of the world. That's not necessary a bad thing. This is sort of what a few other posters have spoke about as well. If you want the rest of us to agree that you are correct about something, at least when it comes to me, you are going to have to put some evidence behind it way beyond the simple fact that you "think or feel" that it is the case and you are correct. And, just being honest here, if you are a 19 year-old high school drop out, I'm sorry, but I'm not likely to put a lot of faith in your scientific ability. You have a lot to learn in life and perhaps the best lesson of all is that others may actually know a thing or two that you do not. Again, I'm not speaking of anyone in particular - not at all. And yeah, I get I'm sounding like a middle-aged "dad" type of person.

Hearing from others is part of how we learn and grow. Perhaps this board can help you change your [incorrect] thinking that Sub makes your hair fall out. There have been a lot of things along my life that I have not been happy about. I've been mad at others for pointing them out to me. It was THEIR fault. We often are the most upset when deep down we think that what people are telling us might actually be the truth - and we don't want to hear it. After all, are we really going to continue to think that WE ARE RIGHT - even when dozens of people are telling us that just might not be the case?

I wish I had time for more. I do have to get in that, like a few others, I too am very saddened that people would send PMs and not post. I have to wonder how much that happens, but if it does, that really is sad. It is not helping the rest of the group and everyone's opinion should be heard and has some value. Not everyone might agree, but they really should get their view out there. That's what a healthy discussion is all about. What are you afraid of? Stand up for what you believe - and even more, have the guts to admit you might actually be wrong. 'Nothing wrong with that either!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:44 am 
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As usual, don, you make some great points. I always appreciate your rational thoughts and input.

You said, "...deep down we think that what people are telling us might actually be the truth - and we don't want to hear it. After all, are we really going to continue to think that WE ARE RIGHT - even when dozens of people are telling us that just might not be the case...?"

I find it interesting that you pointed this out. Before I go on, I feel the need to state that my next point is NOT directed at anyone here, it's just something I learned from scientific studies. There have actually been studies that prove something very similar to what you're saying. Studies show that when people have strong beliefs, there's statistical evidence that even when facts to the contrary are given, most people still don't change their minds.

I find this information to be extremely interesting and I just wanted to share it. But again, this is NOT about anyone, just a continuation of an idea that was presented.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:24 am 
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I might throw in that communicating via a forum has unique challenges. It can be very difficult to convey meaning via the typed words, especially to those you don't know (other than what they have chosen to convey). I have to constantly remind myself that, whatever I type, anyone else can choose to take it any way they please. Factor in that, with any statement someone shares, there is bound to be a whole lot that is unsaid. Reacting to stuff often leads to pointless pissing matches (though knowing that certainly never stops me from plunging in at times).

The stuff I really try to avoid is areas tending towards medical advice and/or blaming "idiot" doctors. This stuff comes up all the time....and in many forms. The only thing I should really offer is my own experience or observations with (hopefully) honesty. Its really tough, especially cuz there are few clear lines!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:41 am 
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Earlier in this thread I thought we had come to the consensus that we should value differences of opinion, and if someone says the opposite of what you believe they're not saying you're crazy - they're just sharing a different viewpoint, which is helpful to everyone.
But now it seems the thread is deteriorating into convincing laddertripper that she is WRONG. Being someone who shares her opinion that Sub blunts my emotions (and I became addicted at 40, not 20), why can't it be OK that it's true for me and maybe others as well? At the same time hearing Dr. J's opinion on it, as well as others who disagree is valuable to me and helps to put things into perspective, as well as suggest that there are other possible explainations for what I'm feeling (or not feeling).
This thread started with someone concerned about the tone of the forum and how people with negative comments about Sub are treated. Let's show him that this IS a place where everyone's experience is valued.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:48 am 
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I don't think anyone has altered their thinking that all opinions are welcome here. I think the point lately is that said opinions are indeed NOT fact. That doesn't mean their opinion shouldn't be heard, but is it wrong to question it? Questioning an opinion is not the same as trying to stifle that opinion. At least that's how I see it.

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 Post subject: Thanks Lillyval
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:56 pm 
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Lilyval, thank you so much for that insight.

I'm not new to addiction or to the games it plays with your mind. Realizing that Suboxone was having an effect of my emotions wasn't a conclusion I reached easily. I considered a host of other things, like depression, my marriage, where I lived, whether I went to school for the wrong thing, etc. I had an almost entirely open mind as far as what the cause behind it may be. However, treating/changing those things didn't get to the root of the problem and didn't truly change anything when it came to the void I felt in my feelings. That's been frustrating and I guess I just accepted it as something I didn't understand and wouldn't be able to fix and would just have to make the best of. I said I had an 'almost' entirely open mind because I did not include Suboxone as a possible cause. It's not that I felt totally 'emotionless', but rather that my emotions weren't as intense as they were before and over time, that affected all areas of my life. I'm not saying my life fell apart because of this; but I couldn't seem to tap into best parts of myself and after years of that, the cumulative effect was significant. I didn't decide to go off of Suboxone because I thought Suboxone had anything to do with it. I've never, over all these years of Suboxone, placed any responsibility on Suboxone! Then, as I got significantly lower on Sub, these very unexpected things began to happen. Despite the correlation of this change and the huge decrease in my dose, I know that there are people on here who will continue to tell me it must be something, anything else. For whatever reason, it seems like it cannot be accepted on here as even a possibility.

There's really no point in bringing it into the light when it's been basically decided on here that it's not possible. My response to being told to consider other sources of my dissatisfaction is that I HAVE, I AM, and I WILL. That's part of an active sobriety. I am excited to finally feel like I'm getting out of a rut that I'VE been in, especially because I didn't expect it to happen. I'm totally accepting of the fact that tons and tons of people will take Suboxone forever and never feel they are in any such rut. I'm happy for them and I support their decision to remain on Suboxone. However, this is a powerful and relatively new med, and my experience is neither unique nor impossible. Okay, I know you all may yell TMI!!! But I'm going to say this anyway. Everyone knows women have sexual dreams, just like men do, right? Well, not me for years and years. However, this has started happening again to me, and as I'm asleep, my control over it is kind of questionable. Going out in the morning air is making my stomach get that 'Zing" that I used to get that made the new day feel so fantastic. I thought that just couldn't happen anymore.

Anyway, I don't need anyone here to validate what I am saying. My main intention was to share this with all you guys. The atmosphere is just not receptive, so I will not talk about this on here again. That's unfortunate, but such is life at times. The people I feel for the most are those who are dealing with the same effects I have and yet still absolutely need to take Suboxone or they will seriously risk dieing of opiate addiction. There are people who have this exact problem, and you can imagine how stuck they feel? Those people do need some ideas as to how to manage their treatment. Is it Naloxone? Should they go onto Methadone? A lower dose? IDK, and I wish this forum was more receptive to hearing these things. I see the importance of private messaging! I'm looking forward to more information becoming available or for there to be more long-term studies (and I don't mean 6 months or 1 year). There simply is not enough evidence right now to convince you guys on here that this is a possible symptom, and there isn't enough evidence to convince you guys that this isn't a possible symptom. Or at least there shouldn't be. So, let's ALL keep open minds. Case closed.

Peace :D
laddertipper

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:29 pm 
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I can't stress enough that disagreeing doesn't mean people are not receptive. People have strong feelings about this, not surprising, but so do the people who disagree. Disagreeing does not mean those people haven't listened carefully to that issue and applied critical thinking skills to that argument. Not being receptive, to me, means that we don't listen and refuse to even evaluate it logically and reasonably, and I don't think that's true at all. I almost think it's unfair to even suggest it.

Naloxone is almost completely inert when taken sublingually, so that leaves us with buprenorphine, a medication that's been around for a very long time. So to say it's a new medication isn't quite accurate. And there's also the fact that just because it only became available in the US in 2002, it was available in other countries for much longer. I just wanted to clarify that, because one of the things this forum provides, regardless of opinions, is factual information.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Hat, this is merry-go-round and I would like to get off, please.

If I offended anyone, then please accept my apology.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Hey, that's cool, but it doesn't mean others can't continue with this very enlightening, interesting discussion.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:11 pm 
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This is a very interesting discussion. I've been sitting on the sidelines for the most part, but I finally decided to share my experience with an unconventional side effect while on suboxone.

I abused opiates for approximately 10 years. Mostly Hydrocodone and OxyContin. I got on suboxone Oct. 29/2007 and the first few months were fine. If I had any side effects, they were that I got my life back and I was incredibly happy to be living again. A few months into my treatment I finally found an addiction counselor and started working with him. I believe I was on sub 3 months or so when I started working with him. I remember clearly on one of our first visits admitting to him that I had developed a fear of going to work in the morning in the previous few weeks. This fear was not present during my days of abusing Hydro's and Oxy's, I do remember that. During the time of my switch over from Oxy's to suboxone, nothing at my work had changed. I still held the same position, worked with the same people day in and day out. I don't remember any kind of "life" changes. Again, I was basically ecstatic that I had finally found suboxone.

Anyway, this fear of going to work wasn't killing me or anything, it was very bothersome though. My counselor and I really didn't dwell on this symptom because I had so much damn work to do in so many other departments. Over the years he and I made tremendous progress, especially with regards to understanding my addiction. This whole time that "irrational fear" of going to work in the morning persisted.

Fast forward to several months ago when I stopped taking suboxone. I was out of work for five weeks. Went back to work beginning of week 6 and within a few weeks of that I had all of a sudden realized that I no longer had that fear in the morning! I was surprised to say the least.

Over these past few days I have been searching my memory trying to pinpoint the exact start of this weird symptom, the best I can remember are some events at work leading up to that Oct. 29th date. We launch our new model year of molds and what not in and around that time frame and I remember a few specific tool #'s that gave us hell that year. I remember being excited to get to work so I could do my part in getting those tools to run right. So, I know within months, probably weeks prior to me starting suboxone that the fear was not present. I also know that once I quit suboxone, within weeks....a month and a half, that the fear was gone again.

I just got finished looking at this website....http://www.drugs.com/sfx/suboxone-side- ... ml.....and obviously didn't find any listing of "fear of going to work in the morning" listed there. Oh how I wish it was there!! That would have made me feel a lot better!! :D

So that's my experience with an unconventional side effect of suboxone. I'm pretty convinced it was suboxone, but hell if I know how or why suboxone would do that? It does sound pretty cuckoo, believe me I know. But seeing how the dates of my suboxone use line up pretty dang closely with this symptom, I, for one, am fairly certain it was due to suboxone.

An interesting note about that link I provided, Table 3, the 4 week study has about 20 listed side effects. Table 4, the 4 month study lists close to 30 side effects. Could longer term suboxone use produce more side effects? I'm not sure I'm even reading the tables correctly, my eyes are actually starting to go crossed after trying to read those tables.

So, if anyone else out there in suboxone forum land has had a similar experience, I would love to hear from you.

Thanks for letting me share.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:40 pm 
Jackcrack wrote:
Suboxowned - you are UNDERmedicated and you AREN'T READY for that. You wouldn't feel like crap if you had the right dose. At 4mg, you are absolutely correct that if you get the wrong absorbtion you won't feel as good. You are teetering on withdrawal all the time and only people who are ready to taper should be placed in that situation. You are in a unique situation though. I honestly have no idea how you have managed to make it this long like that.
Cherie
I have made it this long because I cant afford 700$ a month and Im on probation and will go to jail if I relapse. If I was threatened with jail everyday I would probably be nodding out right now. High dose bupe or low dose bupe it wouldnt matter in my situation, I only felt slightly better when I was on 16mg a day then I do on 4mgs daily. Even though methadone causes tolerance it wouldnt matter to me I know I would be doing 100x better If methadone was the route I chose. I know plenty of people on it right now who have been on a steady dose of it for years and they are not using and still get effective relief from it, they dont nod out but the FEEL something and they dont get cravings. Im not ready to not feel anything, with suboxone I might as well be putting an aspirin under my tongue every morning. If it aint broke dont fix it so I dont see why something like methadone that has been effective for decades should just be tossed out the window and replaced with the "miracle" drug suboxone. Sub withdrawal sucks and is not much if any less intense than full agonists so the argument that people present of "choose suboxone methadone withdrawal is the worst ever" holds not water to me. If Im gonna be on maintenance instead of using and Im going to have to go through a long term painful withdrawal it only makes sense for me to choose methadone which will actualy satisfy my cravings instead of just taking sub everyday feeling like Im taking nothing and getting all the pains of withdrawal when I decide to stop. Why oh why did I take this over priced over hyped medication that isnt as effective as methadone which would of had no astronomical induction fees and costs the same price regardless of the dose you need. I should of listened to my gut instinct. Also I dont know everyones addiction history but maybe everyone that does so great on suboxone didnt have as strong of a physical and or pyschological addiction to opiates as me and everyone else who is not doing well on it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Romeo - I do think your side effecit is quite possible because one of the known side effects of suboxone is anxiety. It can increase anxiety in some people which is probably what was causing your irrational fear of sorts of going to work.

Suboxowned - I think you make a few good points.
A) there is no reason to throw out methadone if it is working for someone
B) it could very well be that there is a lesser psychological dependence in those who are doing well on suboxone. It could also be that since you have experienced methadone and you have a different experience that is positive to draw upon that you are constantly comparing them and if I knew I could be stable and still get that opiate feeling......I might not like suboxone very much either because I would be frustrated that the methadone option was out there. I only know my life being totally out of control with oxycontin and withdrawal and the never ending failure of tapering attempts versus suboxone which enables me to sleep, live, work, and gives me a little bit of pain control. Going from HIGH to SUB is HARD. You are FORCED to do a lot of work because you have no out for all the anxiety and emotions and life. You have to figure it out and CHANGE.
C) Have you found out yet if you can go back on methadone from suboxone? I know you were looking into a patient assistance program and considering staying on sub a week ago or so it seemed. If not, I would try to dig up more money so you can get a really good therapist. I don't mean a chemical dependency counselor. I mean a good therapist. Otherwise, I am not sure what you will do but suffering isn't good. Even with the threat of jail I would screw up at some point.

Donh - thanks for your comments.

Laddertipper - I find much of this thread to be totally offensive. Here is why. The original post was about feeling it isn't okay on this forum to express certain opinions specifically referencing side effects. There are only a few related threads recently to draw upon as a base for this complaint. Those who believe they are a PART of this forum are being told they aren't open minded. In response, some of the following comments have been made which suggest there in fact is open mindedness amongst the forum. (please forgive me if the quoting wasn't working)

Quote:
there is certainly nothing wrong with posting your feelings about it.


Quote:
When others point this out, they aren't trying to be assholes or say you are crazy. They are merely saying they are addicts too and they are just as fucked up as you are and if it was them, they would be asking themselves these questions first.


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There is a place for all opinions in this world. Even bad ones. There is growth in learning to turn the other cheek and in biting your tongue. Without diversity, we would be no where in this world.


[/quote]I actually thought the "Emotionless" thread was a pretty good discussion.
Quote:

When I read BBoy's thread, I am not seeing anyone telling him it's all in his head. I'm seeing people say it's a complicated issue, sharing their own experiences, and bringing up some very good points in both directions.
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Could I be wrong? Absolutely.
Quote:

You say that you only want people to recognize it isn't impossible that suboxone slowly blunted your emotions. I don't think it is impossible.
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I don't think it is in your HEAD that you feel your emotions are stronger during the weaning process. I suspect they in fact may be.
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I'm not saying it isn't possible, nor did I say it wasn't possible in the other thread. I don't recall ANYONE saying it wasn't possible. I just saw several people reporting varying experiences.
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I didn't see anyone say it is all in your head or anyone say that to BBoy either. I mean who said it was all in BBoy's head and who said it wasn't possible for the experience to be real?
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I wonder about emotions on suboxone all the time. I wonder if I am missing something other people get in life. I wonder if I am unavailable to those I love. I think about it.
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everyone's opinion should be heard and has some value. Not everyone might agree, but they really should get their view out there. That's what a healthy discussion is all about. What are you afraid of?
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Questioning an opinion is not the same as trying to stifle that opinion. At least that's how I see it.
Quote:

Laddertipper - in response to all of this open mindedness, you respond by saying the following.

I know that there are people on here who will continue to tell me it must be something, anything else. For whatever reason, it seems like it cannot be accepted on here as even a possibility.
Quote:


There's really no point in bringing it into the light when it's been basically decided on here that it's not possible.[quote]

Here is how I see it at this point. In spite of OVERWHELMING evidence in response to the original poster than no one is discounting the "possibility" of certain side effects; YOU continue to assert that the forum believes it isn't possible. The fact that I cannot even get THIS point across to you because you are so BUSY being DEFENSIVE of YOUR opinions that you cannot hear anything else. You are in fact exhibiting the research Hatmaker mentioned. You are seeing only those things that reinforce your original opinion that people think it isn't even POSSIBLE that you could be having this side effect. This also leads me to think that you MAY actually be doing the same thing when it comes to measuring your own emotions. I am sure you won't be a fan of that but this is what I am seeing here and it isn't intended to be offensive toward you. The research she mentions applies to the human population so there is nothing WRONG with you that isn't WRONG with everyone else too. I just find it interesting to see it in action is all.

Bottom line people - try not to be so afraid of mentioning how you are feeling. If you don't want to hear differing opinions as to why that might be, put that in your original post. Just put right there that you do not wish to debate it and put down what you ARE seeking from people. Support? Corroboration? Do you just need to vent? I can't promise you that someone won't jump in and try to debate it. If they do and you don't want that, just refer them back to your original post where you respectfully requested whatever. Running around and private messaging instead isn't going to be much of a learning experience. What do you care what someone else on an online forum thinks or says anyways? Let it roll off. Think about it.....Lifesaver certainly didn't get booted or get attacked making this post so chances are, things will work out okay.

I think that's all I have to say on this topic except to say that if you have a problem with something someone says specifically, you might want to say it directly to them at the time. It's just easier to resolve when you can be specific and not deal with generalized accusations.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:30 pm 
Actualy I never have been on MMT or even taken methadone ever but I was addicted to poppy pods (they have a very very long half life 48+ hours just like methadone) and my buddies who are on methadone used to use pods with me and have said that pods are almost identical to the feeling of methadone except the pods are a bit more euphoric. I just know that a full agonist like methadone that is similar to my DOC would satisfy my cravings more than sub since you dont get any of that warm feeling and anxiety relief from sub. Im still waiting to hear on the patient assistance program hopefully it will come through so i can at least give high dose sub another chance again.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:16 am 
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This is what you wrote to me: "In spite of OVERWHELMING evidence in response to the original poster than no one is discounting the "possibility" of certain side effects; YOU continue to assert that the forum believes it isn't possible. The fact that I cannot even get THIS point across to you because you are so BUSY being DEFENSIVE of YOUR opinions that you cannot hear anything else. You are in fact exhibiting the research Hatmaker mentioned. You are seeing only those things that reinforce your original opinion that people think it isn't even POSSIBLE that you could be having this side effect. This also leads me to think that you MAY actually be doing the same thing when it comes to measuring your own emotions. I am sure you won't be a fan of that but this is what I am seeing here and it isn't intended to be offensive toward you. The research she mentions applies to the human population so there is nothing WRONG with you that isn't WRONG with everyone else too. I just find it interesting to see it in action is all."

Cherie, in my opinion that was really quite mean and rude. I don't deserve that whatsoever, so no, I'm not a fan. You can draw whatever conclusions you would like to draw about me and get as angry as you want to get with me. I actually did appreciate reading your earlier responses, but I do lose respect when it gets this snarky. I'm amazed at the effort and the sheer number of posts you put in to responding to me and how ruffled your feathers are. I'm going to focus on the positive parts of this forum and I'm just not going to contribute to this negative turn because I just don't roll like that. All the same, I've got no beef with you beyond this right here. So....peace!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:28 am 
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I was just browsing through that list of side effects I had posted about earlier and I somehow totally missed something the first time through. I told y'all my eyes were starting to cross, that must be why I missed it. :)

Anyway, look at the side effects of the 4 month study under Nervous System. Indeed, as JackCrack pointed out, anxiety is there. But, that's not the one's that I'm surprised about. Depression is listed as a side effect and Insomnia!

I had always thought sub lifted depression, not that it could possibly cause it? I'm sure for the most part sub does help recovering opiate addicts with their depression, I was just surprised to see depression listed as a side effect!

So, couldn't depression cause one to feel their emotions are being "blunted" or "minimized" or whatever the heck the right word is? I'm really not that familiar with depression. Anyone have any comments? I'm just not sure if that's how depression works?

Next, the Insomnia. If a suboxone user suffers from insomnia, I would certainly think they would also feel emotionally "numb" (forgive me if I'm using the wrong words). The "numbness" isn't a direct side effect, I think it would be called a sympathetic side effect? Regardless of what it's called, I know when I don't sleep well I fell shitty the next day. Could that shittiness be called emotionally numb, I would have to say yes. If the insomnia is chronic I would imagine someone would refer to themselves as a zombie.

I sure hope I'm reading those stupid tables correctly and that I haven't just made a complete ass of myself, but if I have made an ass of myself, it's certainly not the first time!! Probably won't be the last either. :cry:


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 Post subject: Romeo, you're so funny
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:38 am 
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You aren't making an ass of yourself. You really are funny. I like the little guy with the worried expression.

That makes a lot of sense to me and it could explain a whole hell of a lot of stuff regarding my experience with Sub. I definitely exhibited many signs of depression (lack of interest in things, feelings of hopelessness).

Thanks for that info!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:03 am 
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With all due respect, the side effects listed for suboxone come from the clinical studies when they ask participants what they feel was affected. Even if one person says their eyes went crossed from it (example), they would list that. The only point I'm trying to make is that said list isn't much different from any other medication and could include practically anything. Go to that site and check out the side effects for Prozac or even Ultram. The lists are enormous. The funny thing about such lists is that some people who were on the placebo had many of the same side effects. Usually that's listed in the information included with the medication.

With that said, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying suboxone or any other medication doesn't have side effects. Very obviously they do. I'm only saying that one has to realize where those lists originate and how the study was handled.

And having read hundreds of posts from Jackcrack, I don't see any anger or snarkiness exhibited in this thread whatsoever. I've seen it before, and this is not it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:46 am 
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Hat,

That makes good sense what you're saying. I never thought about it that way. I especially like the "placebo" comment you made. I remember reading something once about how powerful the placebo effect is, it's really quite astonishing that our brains could produce such a range of side effects when the "med" was nothing but a sugar pill.

I guess part of what got me looking harder and harder at that list was the fact that a decent number of patients reported those side effects. It looks like an average of 12% of them reported Anxiety, 11% of them reported Depression and 25% reported having Insomnia. I averaged the numbers across the columns. Those numbers seemed statistically significant to me.

I wonder, is there a list of side effects that would be unique to Suboxone that I could check into. Preferably, a list that does not include the clinical studies.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:04 am 
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You are absolutely right about the percentage of people reporting the side effects. As for non-clinical study side effects, I think that's the predominant (if not the only) way of getting those numbers. I don't think people taking the medication can report side effects outside of clinical studies - I think they can only report serious adverse reactions to the drug company and/or the FDA.

I think the idea that some of these other side effects are related to insomnia or depression is a very interesting concept. That's part of what I meant in the "emotionless" thread when I said there are a myriad of variables when it comes to emotions - so many that we probably can't even count them.

Very, very interesting though.

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