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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:50 am 
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I am grateful for the few posts I have read about people actually jumping from 8-4mg and surviving. I simply cannot believe that bona fide addicts are able to maintain the discipline to actually undergo tapering schedules spread out over months or years down to a microgram or 2. My jump-off date is going to be Oct 15, in 3 weeks. I am currently on 8mg and will go down to 4mg next week and i will ATTEMPT to cut down to 2mg for the last week heading into jump-off. I got off Zone two years ago from somewhere around 8mg. It was no fun, to be sure, but i got through the worst of it in 14 days, and that was with a 4mg slip about 3 days in. I obviously found my way BACK to the Zone after getting caught up in with heroin a year later. Thank God I have that previous Suboxone detox to encourage me that it IS indeed possible to get off and survive without having to taper. If all I had to rely on was the testimony of 90% of ex-Zone users in these forums, it would seem impossible to get off without a protracted taper. I am an old school dope fiend, I guess, and could never mix discipline with opiates; thus, a high jump-off is my only option. I am hoping to hear from others who have made it successfully though without tapering to mico-doses. I do not care to debate the merits of tapering vs. not-tapering as my mind is made up on that issue. [font=Georgia] [/font]


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:04 am 
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I've heard that microdosing is more psychological than medical as the amounts people list here are so astronomically low to where it has very little impact on your body- it's the psychological comfort of having it more than anything else. I just lost my job/insurance so I need to taper off, planned getting down from 2mg day where I am now to 0.25mg by January, but I am thinking that won't be necessary and I'll be better off just toughing it out once I'm at the 1mg level - it's gonna suck for awhile regardless, if you're at a relatively low level and do it at a time when you can deal with feeling like crap for a week, that makes more sense to me than dragging it out over months.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:28 am 
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Hey Sublime - welcome to the forum.

There are a few people around who jumped off Sub from higher doses and made it through. Romeo is probably the most active as far as posting goes, but there are old threads that you can check out too.

Good luck and keep us posted.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:46 am 
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KeithRichards wrote:
I've heard that microdosing is more psychological than medical as the amounts people list here are so astronomically low to where it has very little impact on your body- it's the psychological comfort of having it more than anything else.


Well, maybe. When buprenorphine is used as an analgesic via IV or IM injection, the dose will be in micrograms. I think 300mcg is pretty standard for an IV dose for post-operative pain. It's a very powerful drug and the doses we take for opiate addiction are pretty huge. At dose of 200mcg taken sublingually isn't going to be strong enough to really relieve pain, but it certainly can take the edge off withdrawal, especially if you've been tapering for a while and lowering your tolerance.

There very well may be a psychological component also. Many addicts really fear withdrawal so I'm sure that anything that you can do that makes you feel empowered to lessen the severity of withdrawal is going to be beneficial to your success. I will say that even at the lowest dose I tapered to (about 200mcg), my physical w/d symptoms would be allieviated within about 30 minutes of dosing (dialated pupils, sneezing, goosebumps, etc). And when I did finally stop taking Sub at that low dose, I still went through a couple of weeks of feeling mildly crappy. Based on that I think there was a significant physical effect.

My doctor thought I was crazy with my super low taper plan and he also told me that below 1mg it was all psychological. I did try to stop from a higher dose, from 2mg and from 1mg and I never made it past a few days. Maybe I am just a wuss :lol:

So I guess in the end it's just finding what works for you to get you where you want to go. Good luck!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:26 am 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]Hello Sublime3Stylee! And welcome to the forum! I do not have any experience in jumping or tapering, but I am right there with you when it comes to mixing discipline and opiates. If and when I do decide to jump, it will be from a relatively high dose. So, I just wanted to wish you the best of luck in doing this! When you do this, do you think you wouldn't mind posting how you are feeling, how it is for you, etc...? I'd really love to read a thread on this.

Many members taper, jump, and then we never hear how it went or whatever. So that would be a tremendous help to a lot of people I think. Good Luck to you!!!! And again~Welcome to the forum![/font]

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:23 am 
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Hey matey.

If I were you I'd get myself some Clonidine. It can help take the edge off withdrawals, as well as keep your blood pressure in a healthy range (withdrawal is known to cause hypertension - probably the biggest risk of withdrawal).

But by far the most important thing is not managing the withdrawal, it's what measures you have in place to prevent relapse. Being a heroin addict myself who struggles to mix discipline with opioids, I know all too well that struggle remains long after detox. What are you doing to prevent relapse both during and after your withdrawal? I personally wouldn't even consider jumping off without another pharmacotherapy in place like naltrexone.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:30 am 
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Wow, reading what you wrote about your upcoming jump sounds almost exactly like what I did. I was on 8mg - 12mg before I decided to jump. My jump date was about 5 weeks out. I had 5 weeks to lower my dose from 8 - 12 and get as low as possible. Being the good addict that I am, I waited until about the last 10 days to really start lowering my dose (D'oh!!). Technically, I think my last dose was around 5mg or so? Needless to say, my actual blood concentration levels of Suboxone were way higher than that. Anyway, I jumped off Suboxone June 4th/2010 and I made it. Was it a rough fucking ride, yep. But I made it!!

I'm like you in that I don't understand how others are able to taper and maintain the discipline to do so. Everytime I'd try and taper, I'd lower my dose, then reward myself for the hard work of tapering by taking more Suboxone. Again, D'oh!!

We've certainly had several hard core addicts on this site who have managed to taper, though. Why some of us can do it and others can't, I don't know?

You've already got some good advice about Clonidine, it helped me a lot. I didn't start taking it until 30 days after I quit Suboxone because I had no idea it existed, until then. Early in my wd, I did take Xanax. My doctor prescribed me about 20 of the 1mg pills. I was so afraid of getting hooked on those buggers, I only took about 10 of them and tossed the rest. Keeping as active as you can, mentally and physically, will help you too. Do NOT do what I did and try to become one with the couch. I know your body and mind will be screaming at you to sit down and not move, but you will have to resist that urge because all that's gonna do is make things worse.

I too want to urge you to start considering some kind of recovery plan to STAY off of drugs. Although I've been off Suboxone for over 2 years now, I've also slipped up 4 times and abused pain pills. Mercifully, each slip was very brief, but serious nonetheless.

I hope you decide to stick around the forum, there are some great people here with some great advice and they offer great support too.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:50 am 
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[font=Georgia] [/font] Wow, I'm surprised to see so many responses to my post so far. I definitely plan on updating you all about my progress as I approach the jump off date and during and after my withdrawals. I remain confident that I can do this even from a high-dose, for I have detoxed from heroin many times and even kicked methadone once or twice. As I said in my first post, I did come off Suboxone as well, so I know this is definitely something I can do. I went from 8 mg to 6 mg from yesterday to today; it's weird because it almost feels as if I got more out of my lower dosage today than I did with the higher dose. That's the weird thing about Suboxone: it seems like the less you take the better you feel sometimes, and taking more never seems to do much for you. I agree with the suggestions to take some Clonopin. I already have assurance from my doctor that he will give me Xanax. He gave it to me the last time I came off the Suboxone. I forget what it was . . . perhaps 15 to 20 of the blue Xanax. I will be careful not to become dependent on these and only use them when absolutely necessary.

ttyl . . . [font=Georgia] [/font]


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 Post subject: I jumped from 16 mg
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:20 pm 
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I jumped from 2 years of sub at 16 mg when I got arrested and sent to jail last November. It really wasn't bad that much at all. Just annoying physical sickness, comprised primarily of a loss of appetite and massive diarrhea.

It was not at all as bad as I thought it would be. In 3-4 weeks I was fine.

James


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:11 pm 
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The anticipation and anxiety is starting to get to me. Just two and a half weeks left before jumpoff. The doubts are creeping in: Will I make it to the worst of the detox? Will it be able to stay clean if I can get through it? Will I ever be able to enjoy life again without my best friend, my comforter . . . my opiates? Sometimes I find myself convinced that I've done too much damage over the years to my brain, and that it is impossible for person with my drug history to actually stay clean and remain sane at the same time.
I have been building a support network with some guys from my church. One of them was an alcoholic, but I've never been able to find somebody who has known the depths of addiction that a dope fiend such as I have known. It really shouldn't matter all that much anyhow, for all of us struggle with our demons and they manifest themselves in different ways for each of us. I'm sure many people in this forum will object vehemently, but I do not plan on attending secular 12 step meetings. Been there, done that: I've had sponsors, sponsees, worked the steps, know the big book and the 12 and 12 through and through. I really believe that my salvation this time around can only come from God alone. I believe that it is God who is leading me by way of his Spirit to live clean, free of Suboxone. Therefore, assuming that is true, He will provide what I need to stay clean and the people to help me do it. I suppose if I find myself unable to stay sane while living life on life's terms that meetings will always be there for me to go back to should I find myself with no other choice. The party is pretty much over for this dope fiend. I have a beautiful wife, two beautiful young children, and an amazing job. In the old days relapsing really didn't present much consequence because I had never managed to build up a life for myself that was worth staying clean for. But now there is everything to stay clean for, and there's equally as much to lose.
[font=Georgia] [/font]


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:22 am 
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Sublime,

You're absolutely right. Stay in prayer and around your church friends....God can and does work miracles :)

James


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:28 am 
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bunnyman wrote:
Sublime,

You're absolutely right. Stay in prayer and around your church friends....God can and does work miracles :)

James



[font=Comic Sans MS]OH, I totally agree with this statement. I will keep you in my prayers at night! You can make it. With a little luck, and a lot of faith, you are going to be just fine. You have a bunch of people on here to help you out
along the way as well! Best of luck to you, and try to stay positive~that helps too![/font]

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Well, looks like I'll be jumping with you. Read my post about my doctor lying to be able to stop treating me on the Stopping Sub topic list.

James


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:24 pm 
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[font=Georgia] [/font] We'll do it together, Bun. It helps to know that someone else is sharing in your pain for a common, valiant cause.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:32 pm 
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Sublime said, "Sometimes I find myself convinced that I've done too much damage over the years to my brain, and that it is impossible for person with my drug history to actually stay clean and remain sane at the same time."

I had those exact same thoughts man. I started abusing drugs when I was 17. It started out with weed, hash and LSD then moved onto cocaine and crack, tried meth a few times and finally graduated to pain pills. I didn't quit abusing drugs until I was 43.

I CLEARLY remember wondering if I would EVER feel normal again after getting off Suboxone and drugs altogether. I was scared out of my mind that I had permanently buggered my brain up and I was also wondering how a life long drug addict like myself was gonna STAY clean.

Well, I'm here to tell you that we do get better. It takes time and hard work, but our brains are amazingly resilient and adaptable.

After quitting drugs, I gave NA a try. Went for a year straight, but in the end, I stopped going because I had gotten about all I was gonna get out of it and overall, it had turned into a negative for me. Seeing so many people in NA who were clean and they had been there for year after year after year, but they were still so sick in the head scared me. Sure they were clean as a whistle, but wow, were they ever screwy. I don't mean to totally bash NA, I got a lot out of it, I learned a lot, but when I quit going is when my recovery really took off. So, if you don't wanna do NA, that's cool.....just do something....like the church group you're talking about.

One last thing, you mentioned how God would provide you with what you need to stay clean. I believe in God and I agree with you, but I wanted to tell you this. Actually, I think I heard this in NA (LOL). It went something like this. An addict was talking about not needing to brush his teeth because God would take care of his teeth for him. Well, this guys teeth went bad and he eventually ended up dying. When he met God he asked why his teeth fell out because he thought God would take care of that for him and God said, "I gave you a toothbrush and toothpaste, did ya expect me to brush 'em for ya too?" So, God will provide, but we have to do the work.

Sorry if I got all preachy there. You just sound like you're right where I was at and I just want to let you know that we do get better and God does help us, but He REALLY helps those who help themselves.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:00 am 
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[font=Georgia]Thanks for the post Romeo, it definitely seems like we will have a lot of common. I think if I did find myself needing secular 12-step meetings I would definitely go to AA as opposed to NA. At least where I am from, in the South Chicago suburbs, the quality of sobriety in AA far surpasses that of the quality of sobriety I've seen in NA in meetings around here. Back when I was attending Narcotics Anonymous I found myself more tempted with the loose women and the cool crowd than I ever got quality sobriety out of it. AA definitely had more quality sobriety and seemed to emphasize the spiritual side of the program more. They would not let you fuck around in there lusting after women and living a spiritually unfit life - even if it was a pagan form of spirituality they promoted.
I appreciate your analogy about the toothbrush. But no worries, I am a particularly educated and well-read Christian who is familiar with Scripture. After all, the old a saying "faith without works is dead" was penned by the hand of the apostle James long before it ever found its way in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
I know in my heart that eventually my brain will return to normal and the effects of 20+ years of drug abuse will eventually subside. However, it's all too easy to get sucked into the lie that it won't. I just hope I can stay clean and utilize the support that I've built up around me with my church when I need it. As much as I cry and hope for people to be around me for support, I have a terrible habit of isolating when I need people the most. I do it to my wife all time, and she's supposed to be my best friend. It's like there's a part of me that wants to stay sick, addicted, and enslaved. Lord please change me in such a way so that I will rely upon you in my darkest hour, in my most trying times.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:07 am 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]Hey there Sublime and Romeo...I just wanted to tell the both of you, that you sound so spiritually fit. That is
great to read on here. I have always felt the need to hide it somewhat, so as not to offend I guess?? But really
as long as noone is pushing their beliefs on anyone else, than to each his own~right?

It is reassuring to know that I am walking through this journey of recovery with other people that have faith in
the same Higher Power that I do. My life is so much better for it too. Thank you to the both of you for
posting out the inspirational thoughts that you did. It really lifted me up this morning.

That's all that I wanted to say~Hope you both have a great and blessed day![/font]

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:58 am 
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Hey, just wanted to give you some hope.. I am on day 11 after jumping off 16 mg. Worst part is not sleeping great but managing.. Ive worked everyday.. I can't stress this enough...This is my second time kicking subs... Don't just lay in bed the anxiety will rule your mind.. Go to work keep your self busy... It can be difficult but you can do it.... I am an ex heroin junkie/pill popper/methadone clinic patient & 3 year sub patient.. I did it I'm no one special... just don't break down and use... In 10 days you Will feel Better off/on... so just do the damn thing.. ps. my motivation was my cousin which was like a brother. He overdosed and is now deceased, he will be missed!!!!!!!!! This ones for you Aaron I love you cuz, see you in heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! opiates aren't worth dying for!!!! He has 2 young children who will grow up without a father... He was sitting in your shoes. he didn't make it, Will you??? Good luck brother!!!!!


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 Post subject: don't mean to scare you
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:47 am 
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Sublime I don't mean to scare you but that is the reality of it... Over the years especially while using heroin I've lost 8 friends and my father to morphine addiction...... My cousin overdosed on prescribed roxys....I left my hometown of Bradenton, Florida. and moved to VA. to get away from it but we see how well that worked out.... I think your life is worth it..If you're like me and couldn't taper, why delay the inevitable!!!! So just do it..Most important DO NOT STAY IN BED, YOU'LL DRIVE YOURSELF CRAZY, GO TO WORK, EXERCISE, FIGHT BACK.. ON YOUR WORSE DAYS JUST KNOW IT WILL BE BETTER TOMORROW... LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE..... I know you can do it.. Don't believe the internet drama...but most important never forget, because one slip and you'll be back...message me if you need help... I jumped off 4mg. my first time, I've been trying to remember how bad it was but can't.. Mostly I remember the worst over in 8-10 days with lingering symptoms of no energy, which yellow jackets or good energy drinks can help tremendously, but wait until the restless legs are under control or it can intensify the invisible bicycle/RLS...just remember I'm doing it so can you... never look back.....


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 Post subject: Another good point...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:23 am 
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Also, remember if you take the easy way out/use/redose you'll have plenty more days of sickness to come & it will get harder every time you go back... And I don't care what anyone says youre not going to stay on it for the rest of your life, I believe a good 15 yrs. on that ish and you'll be eating through a straw half brain dead... let me clarify before I'm criticized , suboxone definitely helped me, I'm doing better than ever but i miss my sex drive and i hate being in that fog and until you've kicked it you don't know what I'm talking about. 3 years is long enough.. I feel better everyday and man LIFE IS GOOD!!! Good luck everyone & good bless!!!!!! If all else fails PRAYPRAYPRAY TO GOD ALMIGHTY IT HELPS....


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