A short history. Started with tramadol back in 2005 for back pain. I used to be an avid bodybuilder back in early 20's and injured back doing 500 lb squats to failure without a spotter at University of Kentucky gym facility back in college. I paid dearly.

After college I re injured my back and got tramadol at the doctor. While experiencing life stress I started abusing the tramadol which led to daily use and dependance. I moved back to Kentucky in 2007 and couldn't get my tramadol shipped to my apartment due to law changes. I got creative and continued to get my tramadol until 2011 and was forced to stop. Withdrawal was a mixture of opiate and SNRI. You think RLS is bad coming off synthetic opiates and morphine. I would flail around and have horrendous brain & body zaps which would shoot me 2 inches off the bed. I met a dealer months before and then transitioned into vicodin after a week withdrawaling off tramadol. This lasted until July 2013 when I got on Suboxone. I started at 12 mg and got down to 3 mg as per doctors orders.

Suboxone did help me maintain my job. I was a functional addict never taking insane amounts of opiates. Usually around 60-80 mg daily during full addiction. After getting on Suboxone I stopped stressing over the daily obsession with finding pills and occasional 3 day WD's when dealer ran out. That's the ONLY positive I see in Suboxone. I don't see Suboxone as a miracle drug at all and don't agree with long term use. In fact 3 months ago I started getting insane social anxiety and became a recluse. Lost interest in everything on Suboxone. That's when I said enough is enough and started planning a jump. I ditched my doctor as I had tapered on my own and had reserves. I quit my job and moved away from my former using friends to start my recovery. I'm an all or nothing person and tend to go against the grain and skate the edge of societies norms while staying legal...MOST of the time. I said screw tapering to under 1 mg. I want to savor the pain of my withdrawal as to imprint this experience into my brain. As Eric Thomas says, " I dare you to take a little pain".

I had 45 days sobriety back in 2012, relapsed and slowly got back to daily use. It's funny how you can find your old dealer after you ditch the phone number. It was imperative to move away from those negative people, so I did. This is the time I WILL make it to full sobriety. I have steps in action after withdrawal. Getting back into bodybuilding is one of those. I remembered the endorphin high I got especially after squatting to the point of puking. All or nothing, but somewhere in addiction I lost my way and am slowly finding it again. The lifestyle changes I'll be making will allow me to find myself again. SHORT history my ass!

Days 1-4- Not to bad. Mostly dealing with anxiety and poor sleep. I know I'm beginning WD when anxiety comes knocking. FOR ME, it's always the first symptom......AND insomnia. Was getting cocky and got humbled the next day

Day 5-6- Someone snuck up on me and strapped a lead suit on me. Extreme fatigue, malaise. Anxiety 24/7....no let up. No sleep at all on night 5. A couple hours last night. I'm not working, so not trying to breeze through WD by staying busy. I'm mostly idle and taking all these symptoms as they come and dealing with them. Hear that WD....bring it! If Navy SEALS can take Hell Week then WD is cake. My ideology is kinda like when Rocky Balboa let's Mr. T beat on him til he gets angry. He endures the pain and then anger is used to overcome the opponent. My opponent is Suboxone. I hate the stuff.

Hi Avinio, thanks for sharing your story. Sounds like your jump/detox is following the same trajectory that Trainer went through, with the withdrawal symptoms peaking around day 5. She jumped at 2 mg/day IIRC, you might want to read her thread.

Here's the thing, if you have a history of relapsing after getting off opiates, you will need more than your will power to rely on when it comes to long term (lifelong?) sobriety. For us addicts -- and I don't know if that's what you are -- the pain of our past experience is rarely sufficient to keep us clean (or at least not until we've stacked up years and years of it).

As I heard someone say once, if extreme discomfort were enough to guide our future behavior, then the experience of delivering a child would be the best form of birth control there could be.

Have you thought about addiction counseling, 12 step groups, or anything else like that which might work for you?

Good luck with your detox.

-- ji

_________________
"Past and future veil God from our sight; burn both of them with fire."
-- Rumi, Sufi poet and teacher

Hey Johny. Yeah, have been to NA, but can't say I go regularly. I doubt I'd ever work the steps, but having advice from experienced people thriving in sobriety would be what I'd want.

I'm keenly aware of my triggers and for me it was my atmosphere, using friends and no outlets to release stress like fitness style hobbies that get the blood pumping. Opiates replace the natural endorphins release, so peeps often become lazy while opiate addiction occurs. I have to learn stress coping skills as relearn other basic life skills in sobriety. I also plan to get evaluated by a professional addiction specialist to get some guidance and insight. All part of the plan.

I miss the confidence I once had. I used to look good physically which is food for self esteem. Miss my 6 pack..lol. I want to rekindle my love for fitness I once had and reset my priorities. Love and respect myself and direct my work ethic to sobriety instead of filling my wallet. I have A LOT of work to do no doubt, but this time I want it. Sometimes it just clicks in people and it's clicked with me as I've failed before and now know why. I will work the rest of my life to dodge that bullet with my name on it called addiction.

Hi Avinlo, what if the advice you got from someone thriving in sobriety was, 'work the steps'?

For a real addict -- and I don't know if that's you -- 'avoiding triggers' is not a viable long term strategy. Firstly, it's impossible to do, unless we live in a monastery or something like that. Secondly, as long as we're trying to stay clean by managing our cravings, we'll always lose out in the end, because our cravings are more powerful than our willpower at some point (that's the 'powerlessness' people talk about in Step 1). If you're not a 'real addict,' then disregard what I've said, but if you have a lot of experience trying to stay clean based on willpower, and always failing eventually...well, that's another story.

For an addict, it's about finding a way to have the cravings removed entirely. Once that's achieved, staying clean long term is relatively simple. Definitely a lot simpler that keeping up the chainsaw-juggling act we find ourselves doing over and over again in active addiction.

-- ji

_________________
"Past and future veil God from our sight; burn both of them with fire."
-- Rumi, Sufi poet and teacher

Good insight Johnnyikon. I really don't know what kind of addict I am. We are ALL different addicts for different reasons. When I was going to my addiction doctor he wanted me to do the steps. I did go to one NA meeting and talked to someone afterwards and mentioned my Suboxone use and blatantly asked why the hell I was there if I'm still using. Kinda pissed me off, so never went back to that one. I went to a couple others and kept my mouth shut. Time will tell if I really give "12 steps" a true shot.

I started abusing tramadol for a stress reducer. Knowing what i know now i should have filed bankruptcy to eliminate my stress, in the past, and sought support instead of internalizing everything. My stress was career related when the housing market crash started and a few other things destructed in my life all at once. Tramadol became my eascape as i was legally prescribed it for my back. Once daily use started i ditched the doctor and ordered online which was so simple back then in Cincinnati, Ohio. Whoever says tramadol isn't addictive should be forced to get addicted to it and then have to detox from it. It was the scariest withdrawal I've experienced yet no joking.

I think my path in dealing with triggers and cravings needs to be getting professional advice about coping with life stress since stress was what kick started my addiction. I used to deal with stress through fitness and hobbies, but stopped after college and immersed myself in work. When major stress came knocking is when the abuse began. I got hooked before i even realized i was addicted. I was ignorant to addiction and drug dependance thinking tramadol was harmless from what I was told. Not blaming anyone.....I chose to use and abuse it. Once I realized I had a problem I feared withdrawal and kept using instead of asking for help. I always used the bare amount to ward off WD and feel somewhat normal. That's the only way I could keep my jobs. I was a modest addict. I converted to vicodin to keep from the horrible withdrawal from tramadol and because tramadol became a hassle to get. My pride prevented me from asking for help, so I continued using the bare amount to function in order to work.

If I can keep stress minimal then I should have no cravings for pills, but time will tell as I'm still early in recovery. Stress would be my BIGGEST trigger for sure. We all started using for different reasons and all have different triggers I suppose. I'm early into recovery, so I still have a lot of work to do in building my support system, counseling and prioritization putting stress reduction at top of the list. If I'm not stressed then I'm a happy person, but I tend to worry and stress over the simplest things which is where psychiatrist therapy should help me learn to cope healthfully. My health will be top priority from now on in ALL areas of my life. The steps definitely have their place, so we'll see. I may give them a shot....can't hurt as I have an open mind. Anything that will benefit me in staying clean. The steps would certainly help my dealing with guilt and personal accountability as well as having a sponsor for a coach and mentor. Anything to keep my away from drugs.

How's your Subs detox going? You must be up to day 9 now or something like that?

-- ji

_________________
"Past and future veil God from our sight; burn both of them with fire."
-- Rumi, Sufi poet and teacher

Hey Johnny! Yep day 9 today. Doing ok. Sleep has by far been the biggest problem as well as the anxiety. Got about 6-7 hours last night with help of some sleep aids. Coming up 2nd biggest issue is malaise and low energy. Just dragging ass through the day and have minimal motivation, but seem to get a spark of energy around 6pm or so. Have minor issues with sneezing fits and they aren't just 1 sneeze, but compound sneezes. Had yawning issues from days 1-3, but the yawning has seemed to have subsided. Never had much stomach issues(diarrhea) Really had emotional issues on days 2-3 and was crying at random stuff. I had a diabetic cat of 13 years put to sleep back in May 2013. I saw a picture of him a few days ago and cried which I hadn't cried in years due to Suboxone numbing my emotions. Grown men do indeed cry...lol.

So symptom timeline for ME:

Day 1- start of anxiety, but slept 8 hours. Yawning about every 30 min all day. Same with sneezing.

Day 2- anxiety ramping up, emotional highs and lows which led to positivity to depressed....roller coaster ride up and down, minor stomach issues. Yawning and sneezing all day. Energy a bit less than prior day. Got a little sleep.

Day 3- about the same as day 2, but a little worse. A little bit of RLS at night only when I laid down. Got about 2 hours sleep.

Day 4- Someone snuck up on me and strapped an 800 LB gorilla on my back.....fatigued most all day. Started getting chills. Anxiety is mildly constant all day. The fatigue seemed to let up around 6pm and get boost in energy. Yawning and sneezing subsiding a lot. No sleep at all! RLS ravaged me!

Day 5- The 800 LB gorilla still holding on...eextremely fatigued and malaise. Chilled all day and goosebumps. Anxiety still....All day which is now just plain annoying! Minor stomach issues. Yawning a little, but sneezing left me. 1 hour broken sleep...Maybe! RLS still present. No sleep is smashing my moral.

Day 6- Worst day yet with fatigue and anxiety. Appetite almost gone, so drank MRP shakes (meal replacement) and juicing fruits and vegetables with my juicer. Also drinking alot of water. No yawning or sneezing. No stomach issues. Again, getting surge of energy after 6 pm which sucks cause I know it affects sleep negatively. Maybe 1-2 hours broken sleep. RLS ramping down a bit, but still interfering with sleep.

Day 7- Got small amount of clonodine, lyrica and xanax for sleep aid. Watching the sun set and rise SUCKS DONKEY BALLS! Energy is still low, but slightly better than day 6. Anxiety is still constant all day, but not near panic attack status thank God! Just mild and nagging....like stomach butterflies that doesn't let up. No appetite at all. Drank liquid meals again. Got decent sleep with the prescription meds....about 6-7 hours. RLS got KO'd!

Day 8- Anxiety still there, but maybe subsided 10%. Appetite still sucks, so liquid food again and juicing veggies. Still fatigued, but a little improvement.....very manageable. Actually had a little motivation to go bass fishing yesterday, but don't know any good fishing holes here yet. Still new to this area. I haven't wanted to fish in a LONG time. I used to bass fish tournaments with my stepdad years ago. My uncle manufacturers plastic lures, so I have an endless supply. Slept about 6-7 hours. Lyrica and xanax helps sleep in withdrawal. I have MUCH respect for benzo's, so only taking for about 2 weeks. I only take about .25 mg and it works great. The lyrica helps with the "heebies"...skin crawling.

Day 9- Felt pretty good waking up. Went out and smoked a cig and the sunny sky and trees seemed to look more vivid and beautiful. Still a bit of fatigue and malaise. Quitting smoking is my next endeavor as well as cutting sugar out of my diet. A healthy diet and fitness will hopefully be my next addiction and ONLY addiction. Watch the documentary "Fat, Sick and nearly Dead" on Netflix...eye opening. Day 9 has been the best day yet SO FAR, but it's only 10 am...I feel a slight spark of enthusiasm and sense of accomplishment. Hope rest of day is linear and no extreme lows, but we'll see.

Hope everyone has a good day!

Hey Avinlo, keeping your stress levels minimal is a good goal, but like you said, learning how to deal with stress in a healthy way is VERY important.

As addicts, we've taught ourselves a "short cut" to dealing with stress......drugs. But as you know, drugs aren't really a short cut. During addiction, we develop some horrendous maladaptive behaviors and correcting those, for me, has been very important to my recovery.

I also have to give weight lifting a shout out, too. I started lifting 18 months after I quit Suboxone and I'm SO happy I started. My exercise routine is a big part of my staying clean.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!

Good insight Romeo. You're very well respected. I've lurked around here for a while before jumping and always respected your advice.

Guess I should also say I get these dark moods mid day. I wake up and usually feel optimistic and then energy dissipates all at once and lasts until after 6pm. The ups and downs are really annoying. Oh well, might as well embrace it cause it'll probably last a while.

Hi Avinlo, i read yur day 9 update, sounds like you're coming around.

Sleep was a big problem for me for the first few weeks, it's good that you're taking it seriously.

Keep posting, and good luck. You'll probably experience steady progress from here on in.

-- ji

_________________
"Past and future veil God from our sight; burn both of them with fire."
-- Rumi, Sufi poet and teacher

I felt immensely better when I started lifting weights in my 3rd week of wds. I was a sad sight the first month I started and stayed with light weight because EVERYTHING felt so damn heavy. Some equipment I ccouldn't even use at first because even without plates on them, they were to heavy to lift. Lmao! I am the only woman who is there at night working out with the body builders who go there. Its definately an old school gym with old equipment mixed in with some new stuff like Hammer Strength machines. Probably why I am the only chic there. Hahaha I love it though!!!!!

I used to experience that everyday at first between 2 and 6 pm and I would "recharge" with either a hot bath (I swear by hot baths), or a shower. I must of been the cleanest person on the planet back then because I showered and bathed a shitload everyday! Something about baths/showers would lift my mood and give me a bit of energy and motivation.

worth a shot! Give it a try

Yeah, trainer I remember a lot about the weight training and diet structure from my bodybuilding days in my early 20's. I was obsessed with it for 7 years. Started at 16 years old because I was a stocky kid playing high school football. I continued into college and finally achieved some awesome results after hard work. Was in the best shape of my life at 210 LB's and 6% body fat. I got wrapped up in life and stopped a few years after college. I haven't touched a weight in 14 years as I'm 38 years old and out of shape. Thank goodness for muscle memory though.

I actually got re inspired after reading your journal, so thanks for that! Right now money is tight, but when I start work again here soon, a gym membership is top priority.

Also, I do take long hot showers daily which does seem to help right before bedtime.

I got lucky with the gym fee. The place is dirt cheap at $20 a month. Its really a hole in the wall but they have everything you need, just old. The equipment is definately used hard and doesnt look to pretty but totally functional. They do have alot of cardio stuff which is new, with tvs to watch in the front section and the lifting stuff is in the back in a separate area. The biggest money maker is their boxing program. They have a ring, heavy bags and such and run training classes 3 times a week that have alot of people in them. Thats $85 a month. Fun to sneak a peek when they leave the door open during training!

DAY 12 tomorrow...YYYYYEEEE..FREAKIN..HHHAAA!!! For jumping at 3 mg I feel f***in awesome! If I had stayed on my suboxone then I'd be miserable today, but I don't feel miserable BECAUSE I quit my dependencie on the one drug that's been holding me back from my full potential in life for a while now. The past couple months on suboxone I was constantly irritable, had depression, severely antisocial to the point I couldn't make eye contact with ANYBODY and could sleep 10+ hours a day. What's amazing is all this has stopped since jumping from sub's. I had to have had some weird neural biological abnormalities caused by the suboxone and that's scary especially because I never exhibited any of those symptoms before starting suboxone. I think for whatever reason certain people begin certain mental diseases after a while on suboxone. Ive heard others complaining about this over in the "bupe moods" section. What's scary is there's no studies being done on this.....that I could find. Suboxone did stabilize my life to hold jobs after starting, but I was on it WAY TO LONG at 1 year and 2 months. Now, I'm just giving my personal experience, so if suboxone is your miracle drug then props, but it sure as heck wasn't mine especially after being on it after 6 months when my severe mental abnormalities slowly started after tapering slowly. Not stabilizing at 3 mg......I plunged head first.

No physical symptoms that I can tell other than occasional chills and occasional sneezes. I never got any stomach issues at all. It seems to be all mental with waves of exhaustion and malaise that comes and goes. No more depression or social anxieties anymore since stopping suboxone. I used to stay in bed almost all day watching Netflix prior to 12 days ago. Now, I'm getting motivation to get out and do things, but money is so tight since I haven't worked in months. I reapplied for my old job at ADT installing alarms and now waiting for application approval. I now wake up at 8am with vigor to start the day.I feel alive again!! If I had wings I'd take off and just soar. Now, I am aware that I can have bad days also this early in withdrawal, but who the hell doesn't have bad days.

My tip for the day- In recovery, embrace bad days and know they'll happen and deal with them by working through the stress. This is where fitness, martial arts or boxing is an absolute GOD SEND. Also having a bad day means you push on through and tackle the source of your discomfort and fix it. If you can't fix it then know at least you tried...now move on and make due. Speaking from experience, I used to run from all my problems and STRESS and self medicate instead of sacking up and confronting my problems and use the support of loved ones or friends for advice on solving the source of discomfort. This is something I'll have to work on in my sobriety. No one EVER has to self medicate....EVER.

Trainer- I might start p90x first to shred the extra fat I've acquired through being so sedatery these last 8 months. It's a great program. Then once back in shape I will start back to bodybuilding in a gym. This is the plan at least.

I love those hole-in-the-wall gyms, Trainer, there's a couple not far from my new place and I may check them out.

Avinlo glad to hear you're doing well. Keep in mind that there may be some speed bumps ahead, but then again there may not be, Subs detoxes can differ from person to person.

Have a great day.

-- ji

_________________
"Past and future veil God from our sight; burn both of them with fire."
-- Rumi, Sufi poet and teacher

DAY 15- At 16:00 hr's today will be 360 hours I haven't had any suboxone. And, considering I didn't drag out a micro taper plan and just jumped at 3 mg, I feel fantastic.....considering. I'm not out of the woods yet, but I'm feeling my way through the woods of as a blind man would and as slowly as the blind man will eventually find his way out.....so will I.

I'm sleeping every night albeit I toss and turn forever it seems, but do drift off to sleep. I guess I averaging 5-7 hours nightly now as each night differs. Remember, in withdrawal NOTHING is constant! The anxiety is almost gone and is about a 1-2 compared to a 6-8 at about day 5. It's SO manageable now!

My biggest issue now is it takes me a while to get stuff done....motivation issue. Once I say f*** it and just do it knowing it has to be done then 5 minutes into it I just go into auto pilot mode and don't think about what I'm doing. While my brain isn't healed yet and the neurotransmitters required for motivation aren't leveled out, IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET S*** DONE. It will just take a lil bit.

I haven't got back in the gym yet due to lack of finances for a gym membership and proper nutrition, but working on getting my old job back installing residential and commercial alarm systems for ADT. Long story why I quit, but hopefully will be back working soon and adding days to my sobriety.

Overall, I'd say I feel DAMN GOOD at day 15. People out there reading this considering to jump....just do it. Get your life back and start enjoying your emotions again. My emotions were COMPLETELY NUMB on suboxone and now I'm starting to appreciate the smaller things in life I once totally ignored while on suboxone. This message isn't meant for the people who do SOME HOW do well on low dose sub, but for the people out there who's actually suffering(temporary depression, anti social behavior, isolation, limited motivation, etc) on low dose suboxone like I was then you CAN and WILL start to feel alive again soon after jumping.....I will bet my life on it. As you've read on here COUNTLESS times before the fear and anxiety of jumping far out weighs the jump itself. As Nike ads say, "Just Do It"......already! LOL! Have a great and blessed day out there.

Your suboxone side effects sound very similar to mine... I went from being a very social active person (even during opiate addiction) to a hermit. I been clean around 75 days (not even sure anymore) and its honestly shocking to me how messed up I really was on suboxone. I am definitely myself again now and things continue to improve. You seem like your motivated and that is really all it takes in my opinion.

Best of luck.

_________________
Sub free since July 2nd, 2014!

Thanks Tikistyles and congrats on your clean time. Yeah, of course I'm no doctor, but I think my bad reaction had something that do with the naloxone, but who knows. I didn't taper to fast. In January I was at 8mg and at 3mg by June and never tapered lower. A lot of people was telling me to switch to subutex while tapering, but was a no go with doctor. Again, something about naloxone. I was using the strip the whole time I was on suboxone.

All I know is I started having MAJOR depressive, and anti social behavior. I HATED to even leave my apartment even to go buy food. And talking to people became a chore even a game of avoidance. I'd do things like see a neighbor outside and take a different path to avoid talking to him. Sometimes he'd say hi and I'd only just barely nod in acknowledgement not speaking at all. Out in public I stopped holding doors for people and just had this general "I HATE EVERYBODY" attitude. And it got the worst around the last few months while on suboxone. I've never been a fairytale, dancing around on my tiptoes social butterfly that everyone gravitated towards, but COME ON....I never had mental distress like this in my life either. My stupid dumbass doctor said it was my addiction causing these mental resctions...BULLSHIT...IM NOT AN IDIOT DICKHEAD. He just told me to go to more meetings. After that session i never went back to see him. WTF? Do some doctors get their med degree from a cereal box? Or, is the money all they're after? I had a nice stash of suboxone saved anyway because i tapered a lot. It was always the general consensus to taper...taper...taper down to .0000025 (being sarcastic...lol) before jumping, but it would have been impossible with the severe mental distress I was having. A couple times I actually would joke to my family about jumping in front of a semi truck and would then afterwards sit and fantasize about going through the whole process....now I've NEVER BEEN SUICIDAL in my life and don't think I would have ever acted on my ideation. Once I snapped back to reality it would really bother me as to why I'd think that way. The only physical symptom that bothered me was sleeping insane amounts of time. I could easily sleep 10-12 hours daily and did most days.

I'm now 16 days clean and starting to see A LOT more clearly now with retrospect to my last few months on suboxone. I can say this I will NEVER TOUCH SUBOXONE EVER AGAIN. If I relapse sometime down the road then I'll just detox off a SAO. Suboxone really messed me up mentally for some reason. I mean I have no plans to EVER abuse opiates again, but even people with decades clean time have relapsed. I'm not delusional in knowing I'm an addict and have to work hard to do what has to be done to stay sober. I'm getting better by the day, but still lack energy and motivation. And, I really need to get back to working again. I reapplied for my old job and got a call back. I'm stressing about having took some Xanax for the past week ONLY to help with anxiety and sleep. I have no more left, and got from family member. Now I'm reading the shit can be detected in urine for 1-6 weeks. Before last week I haven't touched any benzo in over a year. Guess we'll see.