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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:37 pm 
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That's so cool fuser. Please keep posting, you have no idea how uplifting this will be to others considering a taper.

You made a great point above. You have 7 years of clean time under your belt. Plus, I'm sure that these lower doses of bupe aren't doing very much in the way of covering cravings. I would be interested to hear though if you do have any issues with it. Keep us updated!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:50 am 
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NO sleep without clonidine..and it's not just my addict behaviour..I have to wonder what will happen when I run out of it in 4 days, since I don't have any intentions of getting more (been taking it for the last 1,5 month) and the last thing I want is to withdraw from clonidine as well..
Tomorrow will be a full week since my last dose! As for the cravings..I only get them at night when any position in bed suddenly becomes a torture.. Taking it day by day..it's the only way


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:42 pm 
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can it be PAWS..already?? massive depression hit me today..I'm a little stunned tbh..didn't expect it so soon.. GOt some L-Tyrosine aminos some time ago in preparation for this..Hope it works..if anyone has any expirience with it please let me know


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:13 pm 
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Withdrawl from clonidine? Are you perhaps confusing this with the benzo Klonipin? Clonidine is not in any way addictive. In fact it's primary use is as a blood pressure medication. You are not going to get addicted, dependent or have to withdrawl from clonidine. At least there are no reports in the literature about this. Phycological perhaps? I guess that could theoretically be possible but not at all likely.

You don't get extra points for suffering. In fact if anything it could push a relapse. I would really rethink not refilling your clonidine. You may well need it for another week yet, perhaps more?

I'd at least give this some thought. Now, if you are taking Klonipin to sleep, then I'm with you. I'd be very careful of that but not of a blood pressure med.

Don


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:43 am 
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Day 8...amazing how I'm only now getting more of the sympthoms I expected..
Sneezing attacks
Dialated pupils (I'm laughing at how funny I look..like a party animal :D )
Diarrhea

RL's also come out of nowhere..after 2 good days


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Fuser...looks like you stopped, congrats! Clonidine can cause WD in the form of rebound anxiety and temp increasing your heart rate. I read about it and I experienced it because its lowering the BPM's after you take it. It was also probably from taking Xanax as well and stopping abruptly after I ran out. The insomnia does suck but for me lasted a week or so. That week I was up for the WHOLE week. LOL. Thank god that stopped. I think you will get to a point of exhaustion then sleep. I couldn't nap in the day because my heart rate was through the roof. That subsided also after 4 days or so. As far as the sneezing...mine JUST stopped and today for me is day 60. It got less and less but for a long time, I sneezed in multiples several times in a couple hour clip. The pupils?? LOL...when I finally looked at my dessicrated self in the mirror I was like WOAH, that's crazy! They were like saucers and I was afraid to look at anyone. That lasted 5 days or so. Diarrhea...at least a month and I was not constipated before so some peoples thinking of "cleaning out" to me is crap...LOL. That I could deal with though since I was glad the sweating, chills and clamminess were gone as well as incessant annoying yawning. Soon you will have a sex drive back and your body will come to life more. I get chills when I watch a scary movie, sex is so much better etc...I was so dead before, for 10 years with 3 on Sub and didn't realize how bad it was. Here I am after 60 days and now that Im totally out of the acute stuff, Its harder for me. I gained 20 pounds! I fill my pie hole with food now so that's my new addiction. It sucks...I feel awful physically and the weight gain has a lot to do with it. Im back to the gym and have to change NOW. I attend as many NA meetings as I can, which I love and have gone to AA with a friend who quit subs in Feb so I have someone who gets me 100%. Honestly that is 100% fu*king priceless. Im still struggling with low energy but that dreaded lead suit is gone. If it happens to you, know it WILL pass. You are doing great and have come this far...keep going and see that you don't have to be a slave to medication and you CAN wake up in the morning (on less sleep) and start your day without a substance. No worrying, counting, cutting, obsessing etc...Its a great feeling! Good luck to you and keep posting!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:35 pm 
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I know the depression part of it is normal. I struggle with it at times but my friend has it pretty bad. She never heard of PAWS either and she's 10 months out. We were just saying how its exhausting every day to repeat the same mantra to yourself and try to be positive when you want to stay in bed all day or lay on the couch all day etc...Honestly my problem is Im negative by nature and I have trouble getting out of my head. I think of all the energy I had on opiates and all that I accomplished etc...but that was fake and unrealistic so Im constantly giving myself reality checks. I don't want to be a downer, I'm just being real...and this is MY experience. I was waiting for the clouds to part and the sun to shine down on me like an "AHHHHHHH" kinda moment where I would feel extreme happiness and optimism but it never happened. LOL. Im my own worst enemy, trapped in my "coulda, shoulda, woulda, what if, if only" thoughts but Im working on it! This is a personal process for everyone and although we all may be similar, we are different but one thing I know is NA is for me and I need to put as much effort into staying clean than I did in my active days. Theres something so freeing about being in a room full of people who are just like ME :) and YOU.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:46 pm 
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Thanks CNA..I needed that! :D


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:37 pm 
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It is clear to me now why the relaps rate is so high with sub..you basically need to will out some 3 to 4 weeks of feeling like sh... (It seems I have decided to will it out..but it is not easy and I only realise now what many people here meant when they said "you really have to want it")
The hardest thing for me really is putting on a normal face like everything is ok..in front of my friends when I'm really suffering inside..nobody knew all these yrs so no point telling them now..


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:54 pm 
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Fuser...have you tried NA? I dragged my sorry, stinking, sweaty, yawning, saucer eyed pupil self to an NA meeting on day 5 of withdrawal (in fact I did 3 meetings that week despite wanting to crawl in a hole). I shared too...I poured my guts out and was accepted with open arms. Im going back to that group tonight to celebrate 60 days. Try it...until you find a group you like, you need a place to vent and talk and get it out. A place where its safe and others understand and can give you insight and wisdom. Once you get through the acute stuff and your mind is less fixated on how you feel at the moment, you need a plan...or yes, I can see how the relapse rate is so high. Its so hard but we're doing it. JUST FOR TODAY... :P

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:09 pm 
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Hey Fuser,
Take Melissa s thoughts to heart. We all need support, know matter what our recovery intails.
I know i cant do this alone. Now im not a jumper. Im continuing on bupe. But i have also been though
NA, and have at times met nice people who did help me .
People who will join in on your fight to stay clean. These followships give of themselves, and you can inturn
give back by helpn others. Ive made some friendships there in the past. Most members have been where you are now.
It could work for you or help.

Just wanted to second Melissa s thoughts to you...and best of luck ....



razor..


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:40 am 
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Day 12...getting better..sneaky wd's are getting lighter and lighter..sleeping is one thing I'm doing ok with..pupils are still massive.. (depression not that bad anymore!) ..quite anxious though


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:56 am 
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fuser wrote:
Day 12...getting better..sneaky wd's are getting lighter and lighter..sleeping is one thing I'm doing ok with..pupils are still massive.. (depression not that bad anymore!) ..quite anxious though

Hey fuser! WOW! Congrats on 12 days!! Great job!

Try just focusing on getting though 'today' like Melissa said. That may take some of the anxiety away. Take good care of yourself; you will be feeling better and better day by day.

Get outside, fresh air, sunshine, excercise, music, friends, lovers, laughter, all that "normal" healthy stuff that is supposed to make us feel 'naturally' high!! Seek it out- it takes effort, but so so worth it (and not more effort than drug seeking and the consequences, that is for certain!)

I'm almost 6 months med free now after an 8 year run and don't miss drugs at ALL!! Withdrawals are a distant memory! And I got here a day at a time- so can you! :D

But be sure to get going on that recovery plan (and ACTION) as soon as you can!

Peace!
BF

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:11 am 
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Fuser, That is great! I tried skipping two days and developed this feeling of being weighed down. Like i had weights on my arms and legs. I read your posts to push myself along. Im on .25 a day. OHHHH waiting for "time" is killer to me. My doc wants me to stay on. I found out there were patients that would only buy 1 or two strips. There were some that just could not afford it and was not always going in. I on the other hand bought a month at a time. Every month for 5 years.
You mentioned Clonidine. That is a blood pressure med that works centrally (in the brain). I have not seen that drug prescribed in a LONG time and I work in a really big community hospital. Its a pretty fast acting and also causes serious rebound. How does it help you? Does it slow your heart rate? How much do you take? Do you have problems with your BP? My doctor does not want to give me anything. I have Ambien 10 mg, but I still wake up. The pounding sucks. What all do you take? I think I will see another physician and ask about it. I can see how Clonidine would slow heart rate, effect BP, and cause drowsiness.
Good for u!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:20 pm 
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Clonidine does not lower blood pressure by slowing the heart rate. While some blood pressure medications will work this way, most are in the beta blocker class of medications. Instead it lowers the blood pressure by relaxing blood vessels to make them slightly larger and smoother allowing blood to flow more easily and pressure to drop. As a high BP medication it's not used nearly as much anymore as there are better drugs out there that don't make patients feel as tired.

Most BP meds can cause a rebound in blood pressure if stopped quickly. That doesn't mean they WILL only that they CAN. However when used for withdrawl lowering the BP is not the goal and a "rebound" of blood pressure doesn't mean you'll get a rebound of anxiety. In fact I can't find many reports of this. One person here recently claimed they had rebound anxiety when stopping clonidine. In the next sentence they went on to say they also stopped Xnanx at the exact same time! I will bet you dollars to donuts it was stopping the benzo that caused the anxiety. I'm certain of it.

Clonidine is a commonly used medication to treat withdrawl symptoms. Of all the meds sometimes used, including sleeping pills, benzos, etc. it's considered very safe. Maybe Dr. j will be willing to write a few words and clear this up. The downside of using clonidine is very low. It's most certainly, hands down, safer than Ambien, or a benzo. Docs reluctant to prescribe those will often still perscribe clonidine.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:59 am 
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Tomorrow morning will mark 2 weeks since my last dose of an 8+ yr sub habit.. Not that I'm counting days or anything ;) .. I stand firmly that it was my last dose of sub..ever!
So sorry for not answering your posts of support but I was just too lazy and unmotivated (I know that you understand :) )
Still drooling and yawning..plus the led suit is ON with a vengeance!..but I'm really already used to this sh...just hoping it passes already.
I tapered my clonidine so no rebound from that at all..they are harder to get bcs they are apparently quite bad for the liver..Now that I'm out of any pills and I've thrown my pill box away which felt very good..freeing..
I believe that by the new year I'll be good to go and live my life..get a job again and get back into the real society..
No NA meeting where I come from..(there is one but mixed with mostly former and fresh heroin addicts..Based from my past expiriences it's better that I don't be in touch with this community...my community..bcs I'm affraid of getting renewed cravings).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Fuser, where are you getting this stuff? I can find nothing to substantiate clonidine causing liver disease. It's an old, old blood pressure med that millions of people have taken for years on a daily bases, in fact from the United states library of medicine:

Clonidine is a centrally active alpha-adrenergic agonist used predominantly as an antihypertensive agent, usually in combination with other agents. Despite wide scale use for many years, clonidine has not been linked definitively to either serum aminotransferase elevations or clinically apparent liver injury. See for yourself at http://livertox.nih.gov/Clonidine.htm

I've previously addressed this rebound anxiety thing. Yes you MAY expierence rebound blood pressure but anxiety is not likely.

I'd really, really hate for people to read this and be afraid of taking clonidine as a comfort med to help with withdrawals. If you have information to support clonidine causing liver damage or rebound anxiety, please provide it. I am not talking a report from someone claiming either of these things I'm talking actual studies or medical literature claiming it. Otherwise, please be cautious with information that may scare people for no valid reason.

Best of luck with your drop. Please continue to update everyone here.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:39 pm 
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Most of the people here shouldn't be and i think are not affraid of anything other than sub..
As for clonidine I've mentioned the rebound effect..but I don't think I talked about 'rebound anxiety'..? (although anxiety was/is treated with clonidine as well)
I have read that it is possible to have a serious rebound from Clonidine (Catapres) ''after prolonged use if stopped abruptly''...but did not find any substantial data about how long this is... The effects mention very high blood pressure to even cardiac arrest..(not my words)..
As for the liver stuff I heard it from my doc..who was answering my question why is it so hard to get this medication..(they had to order it from another country in the EU)..so she said they don't produce it (prescribe) that much anymore bcs it's apparently hard on the liver..
For me personally Clonidine (Catapres) was a saviour...and I don't think I would've made it through without it..there it is


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:54 pm 
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It just dawned on me, you may not be in the USA? Perhaps that is it? Otherwise I'm again willing to bet cash money every neighborhood pharmacy stocks clonidine. They just do. Online pharmacy outlets often carry it. Import it from the UK? Again if not living in the USA, perhaps.

The rebound blood pressure portion is true but typically in patients with underlying high blood pressure in the first place. Unless the addict has untreated high BP to start with, it's unlikely to get this rebound.

While it helps opiate withdrawl anxiety, it is NOT used for general anxiety disorder or treatment. There is another drug that is often confused called Klonipin. This IS used to treat anxiety as it is a long acting benzodiazepine. Clonidine is not used for anxiety outside of withdrawl.

Not trying to call you out or anything just don't want to scare people needlessly as, just like you state, clonidine works really, really well for opiate withdrawl.

Keep at it Fuser. Hope you contine to forge ahead!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:21 am 
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Day 16...I feel better!..No more feeling uncofortable 24/7..now it comes in patches (notably last night around 6 am..so not much sleep)..I do feel drug free though, physically much lighter and stronger..kind of remembering now how it is to feel clean after almost a decade on sub.
No more feeling cold and tired in the mornings..no more fog...no more chains!

The void in my brain is still present and I'm going to have to deal with it..most probably why I started using in the first place..Will have to learn again some of these things..(my concentration levels are still very low..). Healing takes time..


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