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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Hello all, this is my first post on this forum so here goes...

First I'll describe a little of my history, seeing as even the most self loathing sub users on here seem to take pride in describing their individual cases, even if it's not of any relevance to anyone else (I don't mean to bruise your collective ego). After being addicted to heroin for about a year, I took suboxone for 9 months and achieved full recovery and cleanliness. Then the heroin sneaked back about 6 months later, and three months after I was back on suboxone.

Now I'm in a balancing act of taking both sub and dark. Generally I have quite a good system going where I know how long I can abstain from one in order to take the other to either give my bank balance a break (take suboxone for a few days) or give my brain a break (take gear for a few days). I rarely go into precipitated withdrawal and only mild withdrawals when I'm switching between the two.

I have read some weird things on these forums about sub causing brain damage and hormone problems. Can I ask where has this information come from? Does anyone have any links to interesting evidence based findings about lesser talked about side effects? I want to know if I am putting myself at a higher risk of long term problems by juggling the two together and using long term. My main concern is my lack of emotion, of feeling numb and zombie-esque. I'm not sure whether to attribute this to the gear, the sub, the mix, or my own personality.

Whilst all of your stories are highly interesting, please only respond if you have something to offer based on knowledge or facts, or if you are experiencing something very similar to me and have some advice (apart from the obvious which is stop taking gear and ultimately stop taking sub, yes yes, I promise I'll get onto doing that)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:59 am 
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Let me meet your attitude with the same type of attitude...

This is a recovery forum, go ask your questions elsewhere because we're not interested in telling you anything about what you're looking for.

You should be ashamed, people like yourself doing what you do, that's the reason why people on Suboxone face so much scrutiny and are looked at with such bias. You help perpetuate the problems that legit suboxone patients are faced with.

I'd love to say much, much more, because this hits sorta personally with me, but I'll walk away...it's a crying shame you think you should join a recovery forum to get advice on how to mix sub and dope.
The messed-up thinking of the addict brain, it's likely you feel as though you've done nothing wrong, and should be afforded the answers you seek. Not the least bit humble or remotely displeased with your lifestyle...that has to be awesome.

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RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:45 am 
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I cannot tell you how utterly and absolutely ashamed and vile I feel about what I'm doing at the moment. I am in no way looking for ways in order to continue what I'm doing, I'm working on stopping. I was only asking if what I have been doing would have caused any damage other than the ones known of taking suboxone by itself. I am concerned of my health, if anything I was hoping to learn of serious consequences in order to motivate my recovery. I am surprised you can talk so vehemently about addicts, when it sounds as though you may have had some close experience of addiction and yet you judge so viciously, with prejudice and entire ignorance because you know not one thing about who I am.

I was merely looking for information or advice from someone who has been in a similar situation. I am sorry if my post did not make that clear. And suboxone isn't under scrutiny because of people like me, it's under scrutiny because it is a drug prescribed to addicts. It is a drug...given to addicts. That's why it's monitored closely.

I would suggest that you don't mix with addicts on forums if it gets you this upset. I cannot imagine there is one addict out there who is "pleased" with their lifestyle and it's outrageous that you would suggest anyone would be, you clearly have no place discussing addiction.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:51 am 
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Then I apologize, from your first post, it seemed like your attitude was that of someone who is proud of their situation and wants to continue or prolong it.

Never been in that, and I would suggest quitting the H as quickly as you can. You don't NEED it with Suboxone if you take enough of it...

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seeing as even the most self loathing sub users on here seem to take pride in describing their individual cases, even if it's not of any relevance to anyone else


Quote:
(I don't mean to bruise your collective ego).


Quote:
Generally I have quite a good system going where I know how long I can abstain from one in order to take the other to either give my bank balance a break


Quote:
stop taking gear and ultimately stop taking sub, yes yes, I promise I'll get onto doing that)


The above statement portray an attitude that isn't of someone who feels remorseful, or not that I can tell. That is why I responded in the manner I did.

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RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:00 am 
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And by the way..some of the comments you made about me...and about Suboxone...you apparently have very little information, and it sounds like the information you do have is MISINFORMATION.

The reason doctors who prescribe Suboxone can only have 100 patients at a time...that's not scrutiny? You know of any other "disease" where a doctor is limited on the amount of patients they can see, because the DATA2000 act limits a doctor to 30 patients on Suboxone in their first year of practice, and 100 after that. That's not "scrutiny" to you?

No, I don't know addiction...I know pawning everything I had to support my habit, losing my family, and moving in some girl that I cared nothing about because she had good credit and handed me credit cards I could max out with my pill habit..
But, no, I don't know much about addiction.

And I also don't know about people who die from this either, like the person in my signature...which is still a fresh reminder of what mixing H and pills can do to someone...someone who thinks Suboxone is just another drug for junkies because all they know about it is H addicts take Suboxone when they can't get their fix on heroin...it "ties" them over until they can either afford more heroin, or their dealer gets more heroin in. So some people think Suboxone doesn't help anything...and won't even discuss it. Those are the type of people who die...because they continue chasing something, it used to be a "high" euphoric feeling, and now it's just a monster they chase so they feel normal every day...instead of trying Suboxone to make them feel like a person again, they take a mixture of pills that ultimately ends their life.

That's the story of my brother. Shows what little I know, doesn't it.

I would suggest not posting with the attitude you portrayed in your 1st post, and instead asking for help instead of saying you've found a way to help your bank balance, and that "you'll get right onto that" when it comes to quitting the dope. That leads people to believe that you have no intention whatsoever of stopping the path you're on...

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Adam Wayne P.
DOB: July 1, 1985
October 8, 2013

RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:30 am 
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selfportraitofwho wrote:
I want to know if I am putting myself at a higher risk of long term problems by juggling the two together and using long term.



I'm sorry, i don't have any links to evidence based studies, only an opinion from my own experience and based on what I've seen from others. I do not believe you're putting yourself at greater risk, in regards to long term side effects (other than the ones that already come with addiction to opiates in general.)


selfportraitofwho wrote:
My main concern is my lack of emotion, of feeling numb and zombie-esque. I'm not sure whether to attribute this to the gear, the sub, the mix, or my own personality.


This is a common complaint among sub users and opiate users in general. It is very likely that it is also associated with underlying personality issues as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:10 pm 
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My first post, was as I described, my first ever post. I wanted to be brief and to the point. My main motivation for starting a thread was to try and find more information to help me make the right decisions, I have found it hard to find information with evidence behind it when searching for suboxone. Because most google searches lead to forums like these, I was interested to see if anyone had any links to good articles about long term side effects of using suboxone (/heroin), both in terms of physical and psychological that may relate to my circumstance. So because I was mostly after information, I didn't think it necessary to offer up all of my personal baggage (and I also assumed that most people on here would be understand that there's no joy in addiction and therefore I didn't need to describe the joylessness of it. I didn't realise that on a forum for recovering drug users that I had to validate myself and my presence here with all the gory details of my shame and remorse).

So in an effort to make it brief and to the point whilst also trying to make sure the replies I got would be of some help or relevance, I obviously put some ill thought out comments in there. I get why when I said:

"seeing as even the most self loathing sub users on here seem to take pride in describing their individual cases, even if it's not of any relevance to anyone else" that could be read the wrong way.

What I meant by that was that I am a self loathing sub user (so self loathing that I'm going to make a joke of it) and that I am going to write about my circumstances even though it's probably not of interest or relevance to anyone else.

Regarding your second round of criticisms:

1. I didn't ever dismiss that suboxone is not under scrutiny. My point was that if suboxone wasn't carefully monitored that would be entirely negligent of the doctors prescribing it. They have a duty to keep an eye on the people who are taking it and I don't think it should be any other way. My point was that it's not people who don't or can't abstain from other drugs that makes suboxone closely monitored, it's the fact that EVERYONE who is prescribed suboxone NEEDS and SHOULD be closely monitored.

2. I didn't dismiss that you know nothing of addiction. In fact I gathered from your reply that you sounded like you had first hand experience of addiction, which is why I was so shocked to be so aggressively attacked for my addiction.

3. I'm sorry to hear of your recent loss of your brother, I can't even imagine how that feels. But what you describe is the kind of information I'm looking for, whether I'm at the risk of dying or seriously hurting myself by what I am doing, if you have experience of this then please share...that's all I was asking for in the first place. And when you talk about the chase, and it only perpetuates the problem and worsening the addiction by juggling these two, this is the kind of stuff I want to hear about and talk about. However I don't appreciate being spoken to so passive aggressively like a naughty school kid. We're adults here, so why can't we have a conversation about these things openly and with understanding without resorting to try and have a dig at me?

4. I obviously made some terrible errors in the way I worded my first post. It was my first, I wasn't sure how much information to give, but I wanted to protect myself, naturally, so didn't reveal everything about myself. Essentially I was asking for help, advice, information. And although it could have been worded differently, I wasn't aggressive or rude. Now that I have stepped into the gauntlet of asking for help on this type of forum and I know what kind of response I'm making myself vulnerable to, I won't be doing that again. So thank you jonathan. Thanks a bunch.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:35 pm 
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I would agree with tiny that I don't believe that you're at much more of a health risk than any addict. There are probably mental health risks though.

It seems that you have more experience than I do with taking suboxone and using, and you've probably already experienced this kind of thing, but I'll mention it anyway.

Before I got clean I used to run by some suboxone once and a while, and I would take it as a last resort if I was sick. There were a few times when I took it too early, and it would set off pretty instant withdrawal that was worse (mentally) than any other withdrawal I felt. I would then desperately seek out dope somehow. I'd inject it only to get maybe a tenth of the high I expected to get. Just knowing that I was withdrawing and there was nothing I could do about it was pretty awful. The only thing to do at that point is just deal with it and wait for it to go away.

Quote:
I am in no way looking for ways in order to continue what I'm doing, I'm working on stopping.


If you really want to stop, here are a couple suggestions from my (limited) experience.

1. Get on a high(er) dose of suboxone.
2. Find some people that have similar problems with addiction, and make a habit of talking to them.

I go to twelve step meetings, mostly Alcoholics Anonymous, because those are really the only support groups that are available in my area. I'm not a huge fan of everything that they say in the meetings I go to. But I do find that if I listen to them, and look for similarities to my life, it makes me feel better. I get some motivation to continue my recovery. I have met many people now in my community that I consider my friends.

I don't know much about your background, maybe you've already tried going to support groups. I won't say that everyone can benefit from them, because I don't presume to know that. I will say that I am not the kind of person who ever used to value this kind of thing. Luckily for me though, I was forced by a judge to give it a try, and I found that for me it actually helps.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Welcome selfportraitofwho to the forum.

It appears your first post started off in the wrong direction. I too was taken aback by your tone and attitude. It seemed like you started off insulting everyone here so Thanks for the explanation.

Personally, I have no knowledge of heroin use in regards to Suboxone. (sorry, I guess I broke one of your requests) I've done it, but way back long ago before I hit bottom. If you are truly looking for recovery then you've come to the right place. Just about every question imaginable has been asked here. One thing you can do is to ask a question via the Search feature up top. We have thousands of threads covering almost everything. I do doubt you will find anything about taking both drugs on a regular basis.

As far as long term studies on Buprenorphine, there hasn't been any conclusive proof of it harming an individual over time. Your true concern should be about the black. At least Sub is made in a strict environment, but with H, one never knows what they are putting in it. Both are opiates and have similar side effects just like tinydancer stated. Low sex drive, lack of concentration, fatigue, etc....

Please don't leave because of the odd welcome you received. Most felt insulted.

Once again, Welcome to the best Suboxone forum on planet earth.

rule

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:19 am 
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The very first thing to do would be call a doctor that prescribes Suboxone and quit acquiring via the streets. Self-medicating is one of the biggest problems out there, people who think "I know my body and what I can do...I'll do XX suboxone and then I'll be fine."

If you're only taking Suboxone to give your bank balance a break, then you need to come to some realizations about your addiction and look at all the other reasons why you need to stop the path your traveling.

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DOB: July 1, 1985
October 8, 2013

RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


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