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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:10 pm 
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I have been on and off Suboxone for five years now. I have been serious for the last two years, since my last arreset. I got a DUI January 2010 (heroin related). I went to court and got a two year conditional discharge (basicly, two years probation). I was ordered to 75 hours of DUI classes. After completing 58 of my 75 hours the counsler wanted to talk to my doctor about taking me off Suboxone. I didn't think it was her decision. She asked me to sign a release so she can get my medical records, and if I refused,she would remove me from class. I refused and was dicharged from class. It took a few weeks to find another place that would give me credit for the hours that I have already completed. During this time, my probation officer violated me on my probation for not completing the classes fast enough. And she had me sign a bunch of releases, one of them...my doctor. I had to go to court in Novermber, the judge asked me if I could have proof that i had re-enrolled in a class within 30 days. I told him that would not be a problem. I went back to court in December with proof that the judge asked for. But, much to my surprise- it was a different judge. I started to explain to him why I was there - at the same time he was reading my file. All the sudden he said, "YOUR ON SUBOXONE"? and I said, "yes, but the reason why im here is.." He then said, "THAT STUFF IS A JOKE, PEOPLE ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO TAKE THAT FOR MORE THAN 11 DAYS". I said, "I dont mean to be disrespectful, but that is what helped me stay clean". He said,"YOUR NOT CLEAN..YOUR ON A VERY POWERFUL DRUG". I told him that I was seeing a licesened doctor. He said, "MICHEAL JACKSON WAS SEEING A DOCTOR TOO, LOOK WHERE IT GOT HIM". I told him that i really think that Suboxone has helped me and that I am affriad to relapse. And he said, "THATS YOUR ADDICTION TALKING, AND YOUR GOING TO RELAPSE....THATS ALL PART OF IT". He threatened to put me in jail until I can tell him that I no longer need Suboxone. I told him it was not nesasarry. He said he would give me 60 days to get off of it and gave me a court date for 4/13.

When I saw my doctor I told him what happened in court. He said that he has never heard of the 11 day maximum for taking suboxone. He said I had a right to be treated for addiction and suggusted that I hire a Civil Attorney. He wrote the prescription for the normal amount...with a refill. I felt pretty good when I left the doctors office.

I called a couple attorney's. One of them want $2500.00 as a retainer, plus they said I would have to compensate my doctor to appear in court. If I could get my doctor to appear in court - I wouldn't need the attorney.
I have completed the DUI classes, but I still have the Suboxone issue.
With my court date approaching...any ideas?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Oh my goodnes, I can't even believe this has happened to you! This is what bothers me about our government. I am not trying to stir up any political discussions but I don't think that the government has ANY right to come in and tell anyone what kind of treatment they can or cannot have. This is so scary to me!!!!! I don't have any advice to you Dave, but I sure don't think this is legal. You are under a treatment that is being used across the country for lifetime maintenance in some cases. He is trying to deny you medical treatment...I don't see how this could hold up in a higher court. Are there any lawyers in your area that do pro bono work? Somebody needs to step up on this because if this happens it could set a precedence across the country for dealing with people who are taking suboxone. What's next? Are they going to start telling overweight people that they have to have their diet monitored if they want to receive healthcare? Diabetics will be denied their insulin if they are not following strict diet restrictions? Will smokers be denied treatment for emphysema or lung cancer if they don't quit smoking? Should we tell the child with a cavity from eating to much sugar that they cannot have their tooth fixed, after all if they wouldn't have eaten so much candy it wouldn't be hurting right now would it...just suck it up and deal with it! Not to mention the ramifications it could have in the legal system if judges start treating suboxone as any other common street drug. Any suboxone patient that is stopped at a random checkpoint could be arrested for DUI for taking a medication that is prescribed to them! I am really upset by this. Anyone else????


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Thats COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!

and I completely agree with the above post, as well, Points out A LOT of good issues that go along with this judge 'deciding' suboxone shouldnt be given more than 11 days.

My god, are we still in the dark ages?????

I would at the very very least, try and get your doctor to write a letter to the judge on your behalf, ya know talking about how good your doing, blah blah blah.
that, MAY help, without costing an arm and a leg.
and its worth a shot.

If I win the lotto, I'll hire you a good lawyer!!!
It really sux that your in this predicament.
You might try looking on the NAABT website, like see if they actually do any advocate services????
I have know idea if they do, but there is an 800 number, and ive called before, maybe it'd be worth asking if they COULD help, they are
'advocates for buprenorphine treatment'
so maybe they have some tricks????

GOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDD LUCK

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:04 pm 
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amber4.14.11 wrote:

You might try looking on the NAABT website, like see if they actually do any advocate services????
I have know idea if they do, but there is an 800 number, and ive called before, maybe it'd be worth asking if they COULD help, they are
'advocates for buprenorphine treatment'
so maybe they have some tricks????

GOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDD LUCK


That is Great advice Amber!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Wow what fuckin bull shit. I'm sorry someone correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't our government approve data 2000? That judge should keep his fucking opinion to himself and do his job as a judge.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Wow! What bullshit!

I would try to get a lawyer. I know they are super expensive...can you borrow money from family? Friends?

No judge should be deciding what medication you take.

I got pulled over by an asshole cop who thought I was drunk. I wasn't. She asked what meds I was on and I stupidly told her I was on sub. She arrested me for dui. I got a lawyer and got the charges reduced to neglegent driving with three years of probation. For driving on sub for god sakes! If these assholes ever try to tell me I have to get off sub I will fight them all the way. So I feel your pain.

At least get a letter from you doctor explaining that you need sub right now.

I wish you luck and please update us with what you decide to do and what happens.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:43 am 
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Hi Maintdave,
To say I am Stunned is an under statement !!!!! WTF is going on here? I'm not sure if you said But Where are you located? There has to be a lawyer out there somewhere that will take this case on ? I would contact the Mftr of Suboxone - Reckitt Benkiser in Richmond, VA . It would be in their best interest to fight this F'ing Fruit Cake of a Judge... This could have implications All over the Country! Trust me R/B does NOT want a Judge deciding how much of their product should be taken and therefore how much should be distributed..... Get them involved!!
Just my 2 Cents.. I wish you the best and please keep posting so we can follow your progress.

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:43 am 
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TWINPLY wrote:
Hi Maintdave,
To say I am Stunned is an under statement !!!!! WTF is going on here? I'm not sure if you said But Where are you located? There has to be a lawyer out there somewhere that will take this case on ? I would contact the Mftr of Suboxone - Reckitt Benkiser in Richmond, VA . It would be in their best interest to fight this F'ing Fruit Cake of a Judge... This could have implications All over the Country! Trust me R/B does NOT want a Judge deciding how much of their product should be taken and therefore how much should be distributed..... Get them involved!!
Just my 2 Cents.. I wish you the best and please keep posting so we can follow your progress.

God Bless
TW


They MIGHT refer you to someone on their legal defense team, but I doubt it...they aren't going to take any sort of legal stand on the matter when it comes to advocating for a patient. It leaves too much liability for them as a company to get involved in such...the best bet is to find one of those injury lawyers -- even though this isn't an injury, per se, it would be in their legal realm because it's negligent actions enforced by a judge of the court.

Unless this judge can prove what he's stated, then he's just assuming and shouldn't be seated on the bench...and if I could find the right lawyer, I'd have my attorney to look into rescinding his cases, because he's making a joke and mockery of the justice system.

1) What part of the country is this? I'd like to know state, and county too if you don't mind posting the info...

2)Keep us posted on what you can find out and have done about this. It'd be interesting to know if this kind of case can set a precedent in Suboxone as recovery..


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:51 am 
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I would like to thank everyone for the comments posted. Its good to know that im not the only person that thinks this judge is insane. I have been preparing for my case, I have to go back to court tomorrow at 9am. I have a letter that says I have completed my DUI treatment classes and started my aftercare. I had Walgreens print out a history of my prescriptions (to show that I have been taking the same dose and getting it from the same doctor for some time). I also printed a copy of Data 2000 / Drug addiction treatment act. I was able to hire an attorney, hopefully he can get this resolved in one day. It sucks that it is going to cost me $1000-$1500 because a judge does not believe in using Suboxone.

I will give an update after court tomorrow. (If im not in custody)

I live in Illionois - Cook County (District 4 Maywood)


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 Post subject: Correct!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:43 pm 
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qhorsegal wrote:
I am not trying to stir up any political discussions but I don't think that the government has ANY right to come in and tell anyone what kind of treatment they can or cannot have. Anyone else????


I totally agree. I should point out we have no idea of the political persuasions of the judge. People who are anti - opiate replacement come from both sides of the aisle. It's not a partisan thing at all.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:32 am 
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I'd suggest us all sending this judge an email with links to studies involving Suboxone and it's success rate..

I'd just like to send the quack an email to see if he knows how to use a computer or can actually read and respond with words that fit together to make a complete sentence...but I'm not sure if you can call judges a complete joke or not.
Personally, I think this guy makes a complete mockery of the justice system and I'm curious to ask him where the hell he got people to support him in being put on the bench.

http://12.218.239.60/Contacts/Default.aspx


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:27 am 
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A close relative of mine does lots of Medical Malpractice, Insurance and SS related law. He is also one of the best in his state (wins awards from his peers yearly for over a decade). He will see clients for free and only be paid for it if they win. However, this is because he only takes cases that he feels are legit. Maintdave, he works in the same state, out of the city in the north-half of the starts with an R. Also, a Doctors opinion (an "Expert Opinion") would likely be required in any type of legal hearing in regards to you being able to stay on Suboxone.



I am not trying to be offensive, but it sounds like you did mess up by not just turning over your records. I am a former social worker and would see that as non-compliance. You just have to do what the PO wants. POs and the Court will be more leniant if they see that you are doing all that they ask, even if you think it is stupid. Also, did you tell your PO that you were going to be finding a new "class"? Were you meeting all other requirements, these things are very important when it comes to making your case.

As for the "Government coming in and telling you what you can take"... well they cannot. However, if you become legally involved in the court system then they can. That is part of living in a civilized society. Thankfully, Illinois actually is very progressive when it comes to addiction treatment and things like Bupe and Methadone.

Sadly, they do have a right to tell you want type of treatment you can have, which is why we must work to make them better understand things like Suboxone and SMART Recovery. The 12 Steps is the dominant "treatment" in the United States . I'd bet this judge is just subscribing to its beliefs and practices.

Now, forcing one off of a medication immediately is really pushing it, obviously I am not a doctor nor a lawyer so my opinion is uninformed.


Last edited by stephent on Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Correct!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:33 am 
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Jimmy wrote:
qhorsegal wrote:
I am not trying to stir up any political discussions but I don't think that the government has ANY right to come in and tell anyone what kind of treatment they can or cannot have. Anyone else????


I totally agree. I should point out we have no idea of the political persuasions of the judge. People who are anti - opiate replacement come from both sides of the aisle. It's not a partisan thing at all.




Sure, both sides are not very good when it comes to this stuff. But again, Conservatives tend to be less accepting of addiction treatment and they are also more likely to cut from state and publicly funded programing for addiction treatment and allowing things like Medicare/Aide to provide coverage for Suboxone. Sure, some conservatives are "anti-drug war" but that does not have anything to do with treatment.

Overall there is just a generally misunderstanding of chemical dependency.

Why do you keep trying to bring up politics? You were calling the President of the United States a "marxist" in another thread. That doesn't give you much credibility. And no, your comment was not needed. Your comment was political, the one you responded too wasn't. You brought up a political side of the spectrum and some people are going to disagree with you.


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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Hello everyone, Great news! I just got back from court. It turned out that I got a different judge again today. My attorney wasn't 100% clear what was going on until he looked at my file. He said that the judge that had ordered me off Suboxone is a complete FLAKE. When I was called up, my attorney told the judge that I completed my treatment classes, I started my aftercare classes, I'm going to H/A on a regular basis and that I was doing everything required. The judge asked, "what is this about Suboxone"? My attorney said,"Judge --- wanted him to get off Suboxone. When my client first called me, I thought maybe he didn't have a prescription - but he does...right here". The judge shook her head in disbeleif and said,"PERMISSION TO REVOKE DENIED AND UNTIL JUDGE ---- GETS A M.D. AFTER HIS NAME I"M GOING TO VACATE THIS ORDER". Then the judge told me to let my P.O. that I will be taking this medication in case it shows in a drug test. I think that is part of the problem. Judges and P.O.'s don't know that much about Suboxone. I had to tell her that it doesn't show up on a drug test (Well, the tests that they have anyway). Oh, ya that was another thing my attorney mentioned, I have been clean for every drug test.

So, other then worrying myself sick since December and coming up with another $1500.00 I didn't have for an attorney...Everything worked out fine.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:39 pm 
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stephent wrote:
A close relative of mine does lots of Medical Malpractice, Insurance and SS related law. He is also one of the best in his state (wins awards from his peers yearly for over a decade). He will see clients for free and only be paid for it if they win. However, this is because he only takes cases that he feels are legit. Maintdave, he works in the same state, out of the city in the north-half of the starts with an R. Also, a Doctors opinion (an "Expert Opinion") would likely be required in any type of legal hearing in regards to you being able to stay on Suboxone.



I am not trying to be offensive, but it sounds like you did mess up by not just turning over your records. I am a former social worker and would see that as non-compliance. You just have to do what the PO wants. POs and the Court will be more leniant if they see that you are doing all that they ask, even if you think it is stupid. Also, did you tell your PO that you were going to be finding a new "class"? Were you meeting all other requirements, these things are very important when it comes to making your case.

As for the "Government coming in and telling you what you can take"... well they cannot. However, if you become legally involved in the court system then they can. That is part of living in a civilized society. Thankfully, Illinois actually is very progressive when it comes to addiction treatment and things like Bupe and Methadone.

Sadly, they do have a right to tell you want type of treatment you can have, which is why we must work to make them better understand things like Suboxone and SMART Recovery. The 12 Steps is the dominant "treatment" in the United States . I'd bet this judge is just subscribing to its beliefs and practices.

Now, forcing one off of a medication immediately is really pushing it, obviously I am not a doctor nor a lawyer so my opinion is uninformed.








It's not that I was trying to be difficult with my P.O. or the counselor from DUI class. It's just that I didn't think it was up to them. Although, thinking back on it now... I should have givin my doctor more credit, and allowed them to contact him. Because he would have told them the same thing he told me to tell the judge (basicly to go F#&K yourself).

Yes, like I said in my update...I have completed the DUI classes, Had several neg. drops, going to H/A...doing everything else asked of me.


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 Post subject: Hot Damn!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:41 pm 
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My blood pressure just went down by 20 points!

There is a restoration of sanity in the court system again.


Congrats

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:44 am 
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Thats GREAT news,,,,,

SO freaking glad everything worked out

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hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:35 am 
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Thank God you got a different judge! No kidding, I am so glad that this worked out in your favor. I shudder to think what might have happened if this had set a new precedence for dealing with suboxone patients. (Forgive me if my legal jargan isn't accurate, I've learned all my "official" legal language from CSI and Law & Order!)

Even though it is all worked out for the good now, I hate that you had to sit there worrying for four months because of some idiot judge!

Here's to America, Land of the Free!
LOL :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Update
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:16 am 
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Maintdave wrote:
Hello everyone, Great news! I just got back from court. It turned out that I got a different judge again today. My attorney wasn't 100% clear what was going on until he looked at my file. He said that the judge that had ordered me off Suboxone is a complete FLAKE. When I was called up, my attorney told the judge that I completed my treatment classes, I started my aftercare classes, I'm going to H/A on a regular basis and that I was doing everything required. The judge asked, "what is this about Suboxone"? My attorney said,"Judge --- wanted him to get off Suboxone. When my client first called me, I thought maybe he didn't have a prescription - but he does...right here". The judge shook her head in disbeleif and said,"PERMISSION TO REVOKE DENIED AND UNTIL JUDGE ---- GETS A M.D. AFTER HIS NAME I"M GOING TO VACATE THIS ORDER". Then the judge told me to let my P.O. that I will be taking this medication in case it shows in a drug test. I think that is part of the problem. Judges and P.O.'s don't know that much about Suboxone. I had to tell her that it doesn't show up on a drug test (Well, the tests that they have anyway). Oh, ya that was another thing my attorney mentioned, I have been clean for every drug test.

So, other then worrying myself sick since December and coming up with another $1500.00 I didn't have for an attorney...Everything worked out fine.



Awesome news Dave!

I just came across your thread about 15 minutes ago and I have been glued to the screen waiting to see what happened.. Glad it had a happy ending aside from your stress and the $$$

Thanks so much for posting all of this so it's here in case, god forbid, anyone else goes through something similar


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:47 am 
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Trollll this would never happen trolll and you all fell for their trolling


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