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 Post subject: My Journey of Stopping
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:59 am 
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So, I thought I'd post this and see what happens. I'm doing a quick taper, 4-6 weeks to stop a 200mg + a day oxycodone habit.

Day 14

Day 1 at .8mg a day.

wooHoo. 2 weeks no oxy!! Also under 1mg a day.

Switched to liquid taper this morning, glad I did. It's so quick, east, and perfectly accurate. it really eases my mind. I knownow that I am getting exactly the dose I need.

Overall I couldn't be happier, I'm back in the gym for over a week syatight, I'm easting healthy, I've lost weight (had to use a skinnier hole on my belt y'day )

Things are moving quickly.

All the best to you guys.

Day 1 3mg
Day 2 2mg
Day 3 2mg
Day 4 2mg
Day 5 1.5mg
Day 6 1.5mg
Day 7 1.5mg
Day 8 1.125mg
Day 9 1.125mg
Day 10 1.125mg
Day 11 1.00mg
Day 12 1.00mg
Day 13 1.00mg
Day 14 .80 mg
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 Post subject: Wow!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:27 pm 
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You are going so fast! And you feel well enough to go to the gym and everything. Good job!! I truly mean that. The working out and looking good will help you through this so darn much.

Disclosure: only you know what if best for you and how to treat your addiction. If tapering off Sub is the best thing then more power to you. I wish I could go that fast. I've been on Subs for 5 years, so I'm going at a snail's pace and still having symptoms. I'm using the films, though. Do you have a goal amount that you are planning to taper to before jumping? And one other thing. I experimented with powdering a tab and mixing it with the water, etc. I found that I was 'losing' some of the tab in the barrel/plunger thingy because not all of it comes out. Does this happen to you or was I just doing something wrong? The films are not a great way to taper, unfortunately, because they degrade sooooo fast so you cannot eventually use a small part of one each day for many days. It's a big waste. I feel like they did that on purpose. They didn't put preservatives in the films and they tell you 'you must take the entire film after opening the packet'. The tabs last a long time, so I'm thinking of eventually switching back and doing the liquid taper, but I've got a long way to go. I'm kinda stuck at 3.

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:41 pm 
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Hello and welcome to the forum. It sounds like your short, fast taper is working out for you. I think that's great. Just remember that that kind of taper has an extremely high risk of relapse (especially for people under 30). So in order to prevent any relapse, just remain vigilant and recognize that the risk is there.

We've had people come here with similar plans of a super fast taper, but I don't think any of them came back after awhile to let us know how they're doing. That's why I think if you keep us posted on your progress, even after you're done with the sub, it would be extremely valuable to others.

You're doing great - keep up the good work and keep us posted on how you're doing. And thanks for sharing your story with us.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Last edited by hatmaker510 on Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Usually, references to tapering (at least on here) refer to tapering off suboxone. What you describe is what I would call a detox. It may work for you, and I wish you well. IME, stopping was never the problem, I did so innumerable times. For an addict like I am, *staying stopped* is the issue, so detox was never more than temporary.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Background:

Professional. I'd been playing around with hydrocodones for a five years or so, basically a weekend warrior, when I went out on the weekends partying. The past 18 months i started using daily. escalated up to roxi 30's, I came into a large sum of money and for the past 3 months I used around 200mg a day.

New Years Eve I waited 24 hours and inducted my self at 2 mg a day. I've had no real problems physically or mentally since that day 2 weeks ago. I again joined a gym (I was a bodybuilder 4 years ago, I know what sacrifice and determination can do).

I don't want to be on Suboxone any longer than is necessary. Let me say that again. I DON'T WANT TO BE ON SUBOXONE ANY LONGER THAN NECESSARY.

Of course I've read the stories of people who use Sub's on a maintenence dose for years. I understand why, and I'm happy for them. Personally I want to be free. Freedom from all pills. Suboxone has given me a chance to be successful.

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM TELLING ME THAT I'M APT TO RELAPSE.

I've spent years lurking/studying/learning. Thanks anyway. Yes I understand the relapse numbers, let's stay positive please.

Anyway, I plan on tapering a bit slower now that I'm under one mg a day. But my goal is to get off Suboxone as quickly as possible. But also to do it in a pleasant, healthy, and positive manner.

Yes, my taper has been quick. Quicker than this website is used to. No I'm not the be all end all expert on Suboxone. However, I have a plan. That plan is currently working. I'm able to live a normal life right now, and I want to be finished ASAP.

So, my plan is to taper to .1mg a day in the next few weeks and then hop off.

Thanks everyone for replying, putting this here is good for me, this website is an incredible resource for learning. There are wonderful people here who are soooo caring, knowledgable, and helpful.

Good luck and God Bless!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Oh and Laddertripper here's how I do my version of the liquid taper.

I have a 5ml syringe (I work in the health field, so I use syringes we have on hand). I made a solution of 8mg of Suboxone to 8ml of water. I used the 5 ml to fill up my container (an old pill bottle)

Now I use a one ml syringe that is clearly marked in increments of .01ml. I actually keep the needle on to squirt the solution exactly under my tongue. (I never IVed anything in my life, never even seen it done, so no problems there). I haven't had any problems with 'losing' some of the pill in the syringe or plunger. Maybe cause I just was lucky enough to get a good syringe. But even if i did have a bit of a problem like that, I don't stress about it. I understand about anxiety though, before I discovered the liquid taper method I was really stressed about getting the right dose at micro levels. Now I don't stress about that anymore.

I guess what I would recommend is maybe getting a different/better syringe to dose yourself with. Anything we can do to lessen our anxiety is very helpful. I wish I could help you further.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:03 pm 
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So you're trying to be your own doctor? Have you read Dr. J's story? You aren't unique....I, and many others, have tried to "educate" ourselves into recovery. IME, high intelligence is more a hindrance than a helper for recovery.

What is the saying? "A doctor who treats himself has a fool for both patient and doctor". I'm not implying you are a fool, I am suggesting that you take a good hard look at addiction!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Moman's right - that feeling that we're "different" from other addicts is extremely dangerous. Like I said, just be vigilant.

I also want to respond to something that you said...You want to be "free" from suboxone. I know you didn't say anything outright negative about those of us on sub maintenance, but your words pretty clearly inferred that we are in some way NOT free. I strongly disagree with that intimation. My suboxone is just like any other medication that I take and have to get refills for every few months. I'm not chained to those meds nor am I in any way "not free" because I take sub. Honestly, I'm not trying to be pissy here, but newbies to sub and this forum might read your words and think twice about going on sub when indeed it could literally save their life. It's as though you said something like "I respect your decision, but I'M right" - which intimates that we are wrong. Just sayin'...

In all sincerity I truly hope that you are successful in your goals. I'm not saying you've made the wrong decision, I'm only saying that we haven't made the wrong decision either. I wish you luck and hope you'll continue to post on how you're doing.

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-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:46 pm 
Dude your first time on suboxone and your doing a shor taper? Holy shit!! Man i really hope you have a great support system in place!! I really do. Im rootin for ya!! Keep us posted and make sure to let us know how it goes. Were here for you if you need anything. peace


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:50 pm 
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I wish you the very best with this. I honestly, truly do. I just hate to see people lose their life to this rotten disease of opiate addiction - and don't kid yourself, many do. In fact, tens of thousands do.

So when I read:

"PLEASE REFRAIN FROM TELLING ME THAT I'M APT TO RELAPSE."

It might as well say:

"PLEASE REFRAIN FROM TELLING ME THE TRUTH. I PREFER TO HOPE FOR THE BEST AND IGNORE THE STATISTICS AND REALITY. I AM NOT LIKE ALL OF THOSE OTHER ADDICTS. I AM DIFFERENT."

That is just simply the reality of it all. The numbers don't lie. Unfortunately, the statistics with addicts who simply have to figure it out for themselves and give it a try are also huge. Many won't understand until they give it a try and live through it. The key words there are "live through it". I pray that you do.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:19 pm 
Dude, do you have a twin? I swear i have heard this before i just know it. The whole "body building" thing. Their was a guy on here awhile back that was a body builder who is doing the exact same thing your doing, short taper on his own and he never reported back to us as to how he was doing. Their is just something strange here. I can sense it. Your story is an identical twin to this other guys story. So similar it would make one think it is you, but im not making accusations. Just curious cuz its just a bit too familiar. It would have been great if that guy had let us know how he did but he just disappeared as many "short detox taper" people do. And he even did the taper on his own just as you. Whats up here? Something smells a bit off here


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:22 pm 
Im gonna go lookin for that thread and see if they match like i think they do. I'll let you know. If they do i'll just leave a comment on it an that way you can let us know if it was you or if it was someone who is just similar. Thanks!! Have a great day!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Wow. I want to thank you all for the support and help.

You guys are the best.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:05 pm 
Damn man, you didnt answer me question. Have you been a member here before? Just wandering as i found that thread but wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt before i post it. I have read it thoroughly and made my conclusion but wanted to get your answer first. Its really no big deal if you are the same person. All i would ask is how ya been doing and what went wrong last time. No harm done bro!! peace!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:25 pm 
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SeekinSober - Feel free to check out my thread, Rapid Taper. It might be helpful to you. For me, there is nothing easy about this approach, that's for sure. Some days are good and some not so good. But every week, overall, the outlook improves. For me having a good doctor is key. I am also surrounded by a strong support system. I continue to post on my progress (albeit infrequently at this point) and am happy to respond to questions or comments you might have.

All - Are these studies on relapse rates after short sub stays available on the site? That sure would be an excellent resource for people considering different treatment approaches.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:39 pm 
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I know Dr. J can site specific sources, but this is what I came up with in a very short time of searchin:

From: http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/pu ... 1572.shtml
Suboxone is an amazing breakthrough; one that for the first time allows treatment of addicts early in the course of their illness, and that reliably induces remission in most patients. There are, however, some factors that have the potential to reduce the effectiveness of suboxone treatment. First, some insurers demand that the drug be used only short-term, in some cases for only three weeks! This requirement totally misses the nature of addiction, and ignores the known high relapse rate after short-term use of suboxone (and why wouldn't it be high?).

From:http://www.communitymhccenters.com/SMART.html
Although short-term treatment may be an effective option for some people, it may not allow others enough time to address the psychological and behavioral components of their disease. Since physical dependence is only part of opioid dependence, the chance of relapsing can be higher with short-term treatment...

From: http://www.prescriptiondrug-info.com/dr ... 73&ad=true
Additionally, the opinion of those in the medication assisted treatment field is generally shifting to longer-term treatment periods, which may last indefinitely, due to the anti-depressant effects opioids seem to have on some patients, as well as the high relapse potential among those patients discontinuing maintenance therapy.

Fromhttp://www.suboxone.com/patients/ab ... _film.aspx
Although short-term treatment may be an effective option for some, for others it may not allow enough time to address the psychological and behavioral aspects of their condition, or to reduce illicit opioid use. The chance of relapsing can be higher with short-term treatment.

From:http://www.longterm-drug-rehab.com/suboxone.php
This is a major reason why short-term treatment is so ineffective... you can't have these vital therapeutic experience without having an open ended time frame. It takes months to get someone to do the kinds of work that is required to begin questioning their established thinking.

From:http://www.addictionrecoveryguide.org/medication/heroin_and_pain_pills
The extended suboxone treatment led to better control of symptoms of opioid withdrawal, a reduction in drug use on long-term follow up, and better treatment rention.

From: http://www.suboxoneassistedtreatment.org/34.html
This literature suggests that using buprenorphine for gradual detoxification is more effective than its use for rapid detoxification in terms of patient compliance and relapse to opioid use.

From:http://www.naabt.org/education/pharmacoloy_of_buprenorphine.cfm
The preponderance of research evidence and clinical experience, however, indicates that opioid maintenance treatments have a much higher likelihood of long-term success than do any forms of withdrawal treatment

From: http://www.medtox.com/Resources/Images/5033.pdf
In an off-label use of Suboxone, physicians have begun placing some opiate addicts on long-term regimens with the drug.
Suboxone is a logical choice for opiate replacement therapy for addicts who have had multiple relapses and who present with cravings that are poorly controlled. Each patient is different, so there is no exact dosing formula for Suboxone maintenance.

From: sloarc.com/.../SLOARC%20Buprenorphine%20from%20Wikipedia%205-6-09.doc
Additionally, the opinion of those in the medication assisted treatment field is generally shifting to longer-term treatment periods, which may last indefinitely, due to the anti-depressant effects opioids seem to have on some patients, as well as the high relapse potential among those patients discontinuing maintenance therapy.

From: http://citarellimd.com/suboxone.htm
Longer-term treatment may afford patients adequate time to learn skills to overcome the psychosocial components of the disease. An ancillary support system outside of pharmacotherapy and psychosocial coundeling may also increase patient adherence and retention. Shorter-term treatment may help a patient with physical symptoms associated with opioid dependence, but may not allow enough time for psychosocial adjustments.

From: http://www.medpagetoday.com/Psychiatry/Addictions/11624
Young opioid addicts stayed clean longer when they received extended treatment with buprenorphine and naloxone (Suboxone) compared with short-term detoxification followed by counseling, researchers here said.

From: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567287
Teen opioid abusers who were randomized to 12 weeks of drug counseling plus 12 weeks of buprenorphine-naloxone (Suboxone, Reckitt Benckiser Pharmaceuticals) therapy had better treatment outcomes than those who received drug counseling with only 2 weeks of medical detoxification, in a recent trial. Relapse was high in both groups following discontinuation of buprenorphine-naloxone, however.

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18984887
CONCLUSIONS: Continuing treatment with buprenorphine-naloxone improved outcome compared with short-term detoxification. Further research is necessary to assess the efficacy and safety of longer-term treatment with buprenorphine for young individuals with opioid dependence.

From: http://stacyseikelmd.com/extended-vs-sh ... d-youth-2/
Conclusions Continuing treatment with buprenorphine-naloxone improved outcome compared with short-term detoxification.

From: Dr. J's Blog: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/2010/09/07/ ... enorphine/
The relapse rate after stopping opioids is very high, whether stopping buprenorphine or any other opioid substance.

More from Dr. J: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/2009/04/02/ ... hort-term/
the simple fact is that short-term use of Suboxone has clearly been shown to be a waste of time—the relapse rate is virtually 100%!

From: http://www.nida.nih.gov/PDF/BlendInit/b ... ochure.pdf
The usual treatment provided for opioid addicted patients includes a short-term detoxification using a nonopioid
medication, which often results in high relapse rates.

From: http://opiaterelief.com/2010/02/treatin ... treatment/
The conclusions of this study were that younger opioid users with relatively short periods of addiction did well during treatment with buprenorphine. However, when the medication was stopped, these young people acted just like older long term injection heroin users. An accompanying editorial in the Journal of the American Medical Association summarized the study’s conclusions: “The implication is that adolescent opioid-dependent patients, like their adult counterparts, will likely need long-term, rather than short-term, opioid agonist treatment.”

From Wikipedia: Additionally, the opinion of those in the medication assisted treatment field is generally shifting to longer-term treatment periods, which may last indefinitely, due to the anti-depressant effects opioids seem to have on some patients, as well as the high relapse potential among those patients discontinuing maintenance therapy.


I stopped looking because I had accumulated so much on the subject, but I figured this would suffice, for now at least.
I hope this helps.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:44 pm 
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You say that you want to be free from all pills, but I'm afraid the route you're taking will only provide you with freedom from all pills temporarily. Possibly very temporarily.

You say you don't want to be on suboxone any longer than necessary, but what you're really saying is that you don't want to be on sub period. If you were truly to stay on sub as long as necessary, you would probably be staying on it for at least a good while to let your brain and thoughts re-learn how to NOT live like an addict. You would probably have a good counselor too, I would think he/she would encourage you to stay on suboxone for at least a few months, very minimum, to get your thinking right.

I absolutely am not trying to bitch at you. I'm relating my experience with sub and addiction. I'm relating what my addiction counselor taught me.

Regardless of how long you stay on suboxone, I wish you the best.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:29 pm 
Romeo i would have to say i agree with everything you just said. Dont have much time to type out a response but as i said, Romeo hit the nail on the head with his reply. peace


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:59 pm 
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Thanks Hatmaker. That's great stuff. I'm going to read through it all myself. There should be a sticky for this somewhere. A knowledge base of peer-reviewed studies and articles on addiction and dependence. It's such a rapidly evolving field of understanding it would be good to have a place where people can post and read the latest and greatest. Just a thought. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:38 pm 
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Hey Matt,yeah I read your thread this week. Thanks for posting all the good, bad, and ugly. I found your thread to be a wonderful resource and helpful guide.


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