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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Hi Matt,

Good to hear from you, as always. Everything going good?

That is a great idea!! Posting all that stuff to a sticky.

I don't know if there's already a topic that it would fit into....maybe Stopping Suboxone?

Some discussion on it would be fantastic!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:02 pm 
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SeekinSober - Glad it helped....keep in touch and let us know how it's going for you.

Romeo - i am doing well man, thanks for asking. Feeling good right now. The holidays are a faint memory - though did give me a good slap in the face. Back to my routine and am super busy with work and fam - that makes a big difference. My back pain still hasn't eased up, which has curtailed my exercise. But hopefully it will settle down soon. I hope you're doing well also. It seems so.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
Hi Matt,

Good to hear from you, as always. Everything going good?

That is a great idea!! Posting all that stuff to a sticky.

I don't know if there's already a topic that it would fit into....maybe Stopping Suboxone?

Some discussion on it would be fantastic!!


I'd put it under Q&A. It would be great to have the raw scientific peer-reviewed studies posted in addition to articles.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:09 am 
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Day 15

Day two at .8mg

Things are still great, no, repeat no problems at all. None, Seeping well, feeling well, exercising vigorously daily. I couldn't be happier.

It feels great to be 15 days oxy free, and it feels better being under one mg of Suboxone a day.

Good luck and God Bless!!

Day 1 3mg
Day 2 2mg
Day 3 2mg
Day 4 2mg
Day 5 1.5mg
Day 6 1.5mg
Day 7 1.5mg
Day 8 1.125mg
Day 9 1.125mg
Day 10 1.125mg
Day 11 1.00mg
Day 12 1.00mg
Day 13 1.00mg
Day 14 .80 mg
Day 15 .80 mg


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 Post subject: UNBELIEVABLE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:55 pm 
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I AM SUPRIZED THAT O.P. CAME BACK TO REPLY
YA KNOW WHAT IF YOUR TAKING SUBOXONE YOU ARE NOT FREE
OF SUBOXONE...SOUNDS TO ME AS IF SOME OF YOU ARE REPRESSING
SOME TRUTH..BASIC PSYCHOLOGY INFORMS US ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE
OVER SENSITIVE.

SEEKIN SOBER MORE POWER TO YOU I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE


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 Post subject: Re: UNBELIEVABLE
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:20 am 
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Remember one of the rules of this forum: Show respect for the decisions of others.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:32 am 
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Day 16

Day three at .8mg

lightest of night sweats last night, nothing to bother about. Things are still going very, very well. I guess I'll stick here one more day and reduce on 1/17

I'm thankful to be where I'm at in my taper, glad to be off the crazy ride of pill seeking. So, even though I think I could reduce tomorrow, I'm going to take it a bit slower from here on. Earn some good time, Another day away from the madness. Another day to build on the goodness. Stay humble and move in the right direction.

Good luck and God Bless!!

Day 1 3mg
Day 2 2mg
Day 3 2mg
Day 4 2mg
Day 5 1.5mg
Day 6 1.5mg
Day 7 1.5mg
Day 8 1.125mg
Day 9 1.125mg
Day 10 1.125mg
Day 11 1.00mg
Day 12 1.00mg
Day 13 1.00mg
Day 14 .80 mg
Day 15 .80 mg
Day 16 .80 mg


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:34 am 
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Glad to hear its working out so far. Now that you feel better, what are you doing for recovery?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:50 pm 
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I read through many of the links provided by Hatmaker. I just don't think I am interpreting the data the same way. Maybe I am missing something. I just don't see anything in the scientific data supporting the contention that there is a near 100% failure rate for short term use of Sub. It's possible we're all making inconsistent assumptions about what it means to do a "Rapid Taper" or "Short-term Stay" on Sub. In my case I did a 38-day taper on Sub. I consider that Short Term.

From Hatmaker's links (the ones I got the chance to read for now) that were linked to scientific studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18984887

Study of 152 patients measuring positive opiate urine tests of 14-day detox patients after 4, 8, and 12 weeks. 59 positive results at week 4, 53 at week 8, and 53 at week 12. The study compared this to a 12 week "extended course" which performed better in terms of positive urine tests and treatment persistence at the 4, 8, and 12 week marks.

This study doesn't appear to prove near 100% failure for a 14 day detox.

http://www.naabt.org/education/pharmaco ... rphine.cfm

Medically Supervised Withdrawal

"Although controlled clinical studies of the use of Buprenorphine as an agent for treating opioid withdrawal (detoxification) are scarce, some clinical research on its use for this indication has been conducted. In general, Buprenorphine has been used in three ways for withdrawal from opioids: long-period withdrawal (>30 days), usually on an outpatient basis; moderate-period withdrawal (>3 days but <30 days), again on an outpatient basis; and short-period withdrawal (<3 days), which often has been conducted on an inpatient basis. The available evidence from Buprenorphine and methadone research suggests that long-period Buprenorphine withdrawal probably would be more effective than moderate- or short-period withdrawals but that all forms of withdrawal are less effective compared with ongoing opioid maintenance"

While the study data is unavailable here to review, the article implies that the data shows that those doing a greater than 30-day detox will have the most success. This does not imply a near 100% failure rate.

http://www.prescriptiondrug-info.com/dr ... _treatment

This passage left a strong impression on me.

Ending Suboxone/Subutex maintenance therapy

"Unfortunately very little research has been performed regarding how, if, and when to end treatment programs involving buprenorphine. Even the manufacturer makes this clear. Some believe maintenance / harm reduction programs in general, for any disease, is not a good idea and that cold turkey is the only way. The reality is that everyone has a different viewpoint on these matters and there is no "right" answer. It is important to remember that quitting "cold turkey" has not been correlated to overall outcome, relapse, or any other measure of program effectiveness and should not be used to pride oneself. On one hand, some say maintenance therapy is simply trading one drug for another of the same type. At the opposite end of the spectrum is the notion that addiction is a disease and that, if taking a small 8mg pill once a day is all that is required to change a lifelong drug addict back into a healthy functioning member of society then so be it. If this person needs to take Suboxone for the rest of their life, and it works for them, then this is nothing short of a miracle. Most will agree that addiction in general involves components that are physical, psychological, emotional, and especially spiritual in nature and that, at a minimum, Suboxone treatment augmented by therapies surrounding those other aspects of life (12-step programs, faith-based addictions programs, church, fellowship, spiritual relationship to God, changing habits, etc. etc.) is a sensible way of approaching reform. Suboxone is simply one tool available in the toolbox used by the addict to get better, and the tools needed to achieve the best outcome need to be considered on an individual basis. The amount of time it takes an individual to learn how to deal with life on life's terms, without the need for drug abuse, is the best indicator of how long Suboxone therapy should continue; personal pride, societal record, peer pressure, etc. have no place in an individual's program that is working effectively."

I did this review because there was something about this thread that wasn't sitting well for me. Seekin Sober came on the board looking for support and he was basically told that it's a fact that he is almost guaranteed to relapse because he wasn't staying on Sub for the long term. I don't feel that's in the spirit of being respectful of all recovery approaches. I know there are lots of Docs whose clinical experience, coupled with the latest scientific data, has overwhelmingly convinced them that long term maintenance is the best approach for most. And the profession seems to be moving in that direction overall. I know my doctor is one of them. But my doctor also took the time to understand me on an individual basis and determined that my 38 day taper was a reasonable initial treatment approach.

I think it's fair to advise someone that the data and clinical experience is leaning toward an evolving perspective that long-term maintenance results in better treatment outcomes. The links above certainly support that. But I don't think it's fair to say that the data and experience proves near 100% failure.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:48 pm 
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Matt keep your head up, don't let the negative stuff get to you. You're clean. You never have to use again. I know a bunch of people who've used a 6-8 week taper and they have over a year clean. There lives are good, they are happy.
This place frowns on anything except long term Sub maintenance. There is another way.

Your plan is a guideline for me. Don't let me down.

Good luck and God Bless!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:41 am 
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Seekin Sober - I appreciate your support and sentiment, I do. But I'll say that most folks on this board have actually been pretty supportive of me and have taken an interest in my approach. That's why I was a little surprised when I read this thread. It just didn't feel good to me to hear that nearly everyone who tries this approach is destined to fail. My doctor would air strongly on the side of maintenance (by default), but acknowledges that for some a short-term/detox approach can make sense under the right circumstances. So I wanted to defend that position a little. But I can accept that it's not for everyone - perhaps not even for most.

I firmly believe that patients should find a good, knowledgeable doctor, explore their options, and pick a path that makes the most sense for them. At the end of the day, we're all trying to break a vicious and destructive cycle of addiction/dependence/whatever label you want to put on it. The important thing is to have a thorough plan to break that cycle. And to have a Plan B if our original plan fails. We should all be supportive of each other in the paths we choose.

I am hopeful that I will be successful in the path I've chosen. I appreciate your support and remain happy to be supportive of you in your journey, as well as supportive of the kind people on this board who are living healthy, clean lives on Sub maintenance.

Peace be with you and best of luck.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:46 am 
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I AGREE. I WAS ALSO TROUBLED BY THE SPIRIT OF THIS THREAD.I WAS SUPRIZED AT THE LACK OF SUPPORT
FOR THE O.P.s PLAN TO STOP ---RESPONDERS WERE MORE OPPOSITIONAL THAN ANYTHING.
AND BECAUSE OF THAT I HAVE HAD MY REPLIES DELETED. NOT JUST YHIS SECTION EITHER,

BUT TO THE POINT:

IF YOU ARE READY TO QUIT SUBOXONE GOOD FOR YOU AND MORE POWER TO YOU,THAT DECISION SHOULD
WARRANT EQUAL RESPECT. IT SADDENS ME TO SEE OTHER ADDICTS/OPIATE DEPENDENTS DISCOURAGED
IN COMING OFF OPIATES.

THAMK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERIENCE I WISH YOU ALL THE BEST.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:09 am 
TO ANYONE WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE WAY THIS THREAD HAS WENT:

Have you ever thought that the relapse rate is so high that its almost predictable as to what is gonna happen with this guy. Have you ever thought that most people who have responded in a way yall arent ok with, are concerned for this person and kinda know what the outcome will "likely" be. That is why he got the responses he did. Nobody is gonna sit here an lie to him and tell him everythings gonna be ok when in fact, he doesnt have a very good chance. Im not trying to be discouraging but the facts are facts. I am supportive of what anybody does as everybody has the right to do whatever they want. I think it would be highly insane if everybody just sat here telling this guy what he wants to hear. That would not be very productive. I can see where he needs some support but he also needs TRUTH and the truth is, he does NOT have a very good chance with a short taper. Its simple as that. Unless he is special or different/unique, he will likely be back for his 3rd time. I found a thread that is identical to this guy here and i actually think it may be this guy and the thread is literally identical. It says he used a short taper on his own etc. etc. and everybody told him to come back an let us know how he is doing and wether he was successful or not, he never did. He just disappeared and now i believe he is back under a different name trying to do the same thing at which he failed the first time. I only say that because it just proves the point most people have tried to make to this guy and that is, short tapers are almost an instant failure. IM SORRY IF THATS DISCOURAGING BUT ITS THE TRUTH AND I WILL NOT SIT HERE AN TELL HIM ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE TRUTH. I mean no offense to anyone by this post but this forum is a great place and is the most supportive place out their. To say what has been said is just not fair. If we didnt care, we could have either not said anything to him or we could have told him a bunch of shit stories about how great hes doing and oh you'll be so successful i just know it. That would not be accurate nor fair to the OP. Im done for now. Peace~ AGAIN, NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE!! I AM SPEAKING TRUTH FROM THE HEART.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:16 am 
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All I know is that today, I haven't used. We'll deal with tomorrow tomorrow.

Day 17

Day four at .8mg

Well things are going smooth. I went shopping/movie/dinner with the gf y'day.That was nice. Today is the last day at this tomorrow it's down, down, down. That's exciting.

Good luck and God Bless!!

Day 1 3mg
Day 2 2mg
Day 3 2mg
Day 4 2mg
Day 5 1.5mg
Day 6 1.5mg
Day 7 1.5mg
Day 8 1.125mg
Day 9 1.125mg
Day 10 1.125mg
Day 11 1.00mg
Day 12 1.00mg
Day 13 1.00mg
Day 14 .80 mg
Day 15 .80 mg
Day 16 .80 mg
Day 17 .80 mg


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Dr. J. posted a terrific entry on suboxonetalkzone about this very issue yesterday. I have found that the realities of addiction and recovery are often not very pretty.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:21 pm 
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lifesaver wrote:
TO ANYONE WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE WAY THIS THREAD HAS WENT:

Have you ever thought that the relapse rate is so high that its almost predictable as to what is gonna happen with this guy. Have you ever thought that most people who have responded in a way yall arent ok with, are concerned for this person and kinda know what the outcome will "likely" be. That is why he got the responses he did. Nobody is gonna sit here an lie to him and tell him everythings gonna be ok when in fact, he doesnt have a very good chance. Im not trying to be discouraging but the facts are facts. I am supportive of what anybody does as everybody has the right to do whatever they want. I think it would be highly insane if everybody just sat here telling this guy what he wants to hear. That would not be very productive. I can see where he needs some support but he also needs TRUTH and the truth is, he does NOT have a very good chance with a short taper. Its simple as that. Unless he is special or different/unique, he will likely be back for his 3rd time. I found a thread that is identical to this guy here and i actually think it may be this guy and the thread is literally identical. It says he used a short taper on his own etc. etc. and everybody told him to come back an let us know how he is doing and wether he was successful or not, he never did. He just disappeared and now i believe he is back under a different name trying to do the same thing at which he failed the first time. I only say that because it just proves the point most people have tried to make to this guy and that is, short tapers are almost an instant failure. IM SORRY IF THATS DISCOURAGING BUT ITS THE TRUTH AND I WILL NOT SIT HERE AN TELL HIM ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE TRUTH. I mean no offense to anyone by this post but this forum is a great place and is the most supportive place out their. To say what has been said is just not fair. If we didnt care, we could have either not said anything to him or we could have told him a bunch of shit stories about how great hes doing and oh you'll be so successful i just know it. That would not be accurate nor fair to the OP. Im done for now. Peace~ AGAIN, NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE!! I AM SPEAKING TRUTH FROM THE HEART.


Lifesaver - Help me out because maybe I am confused and maybe we're all just talking past each other. And I think it's critical to clarify. If we're saying that people who do a self-medicated Sub detox, with no doctor input, and no support plan, are facing a recipe for disaster, you won't get disagreement from me. I imply that myself in my post as you'll note above. But there are plenty of people who commit themselves to the admittedly challenging abstinence-based approaches, under doctor/counselor supervision, using Sub as an detox/extended-detox tool, and with support plans that include a firm, humble belief in a higher power. According to the home page, Dr J has patients like this. I don't believe this is a recipe for disaster. And I have yet to be persuaded by any facts that this approach isn't very possible for some patients.

It's not at all evident to me yet where Seekin Sober falls on this spectrum. Perhaps, when he (I assume he, but maybe she) is comfortable, he'll share more details. Which leads to a totally separate issue. There seems to be sensitivity about non-PC comments made when Sub maintenance is the topic of discussion (which I understand completely given the negativity on other boards). It would be great if we could extend the same care and courtesy to those looking to share their abstinence-based approaches, however flawed they might be. For example, I found your posts accusing Seekin Sober of some multi-thread conspiracy to be condescending and unproductive. I think it's disingenuous to say something like that and then try to say no disrespect is meant. It's inherently disrespectful and frankly irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:25 pm 
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moman wrote:
Dr. J. posted a terrific entry on suboxonetalkzone about this very issue yesterday. I have found that the realities of addiction and recovery are often not very pretty.


I agree - great post.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm 
Im my opinion I would say that the only time a short taper using suboxone as just a detox tool and not for maintenance would stand any type of chance for success would be if the person who was using had caught his addiction in the very early stages and has not progressed into a full blown addict yet. Like if they are physicaly dependant but have not yet developed the strong pyschological cravings/need for opiates that develops after long term use. Like say someone got into using opiates recreationaly and ended up dependant after using for like 1-3 months and were only using at that point because they were scared of withdrawal, then I could see using subs for like a week to get off it and they might be successful. But if someone has been using long term and tried quitting numerous times and failed and more importantly actualy were able to make it through the acute detox before only to use as soon as they were better then I dont think short term suboxone will do much of anything. You realy have to want to quit even when you are on suboxone maintenance as using thoughts still come up frequently and i can only imagine how bad I would I would be craving and wanting to use if I was not on suboxone. I most definitely don't think Id be clean right now if I would of gotten on suboxone for a week back in july and then got off, I would be using daily right now I can almost guarantee.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:21 pm 
matt wrote:
lifesaver wrote:
TO ANYONE WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE WAY THIS THREAD HAS WENT:

Have you ever thought that the relapse rate is so high that its almost predictable as to what is gonna happen with this guy. Have you ever thought that most people who have responded in a way yall arent ok with, are concerned for this person and kinda know what the outcome will "likely" be. That is why he got the responses he did. Nobody is gonna sit here an lie to him and tell him everythings gonna be ok when in fact, he doesnt have a very good chance. Im not trying to be discouraging but the facts are facts. I am supportive of what anybody does as everybody has the right to do whatever they want. I think it would be highly insane if everybody just sat here telling this guy what he wants to hear. That would not be very productive. I can see where he needs some support but he also needs TRUTH and the truth is, he does NOT have a very good chance with a short taper. Its simple as that. Unless he is special or different/unique, he will likely be back for his 3rd time. I found a thread that is identical to this guy here and i actually think it may be this guy and the thread is literally identical. It says he used a short taper on his own etc. etc. and everybody told him to come back an let us know how he is doing and wether he was successful or not, he never did. He just disappeared and now i believe he is back under a different name trying to do the same thing at which he failed the first time. I only say that because it just proves the point most people have tried to make to this guy and that is, short tapers are almost an instant failure. IM SORRY IF THATS DISCOURAGING BUT ITS THE TRUTH AND I WILL NOT SIT HERE AN TELL HIM ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE TRUTH. I mean no offense to anyone by this post but this forum is a great place and is the most supportive place out their. To say what has been said is just not fair. If we didnt care, we could have either not said anything to him or we could have told him a bunch of shit stories about how great hes doing and oh you'll be so successful i just know it. That would not be accurate nor fair to the OP. Im done for now. Peace~ AGAIN, NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE!! I AM SPEAKING TRUTH FROM THE HEART.


Lifesaver - Help me out because maybe I am confused and maybe we're all just talking past each other. And I think it's critical to clarify. If we're saying that people who do a self-medicated Sub detox, with no doctor input, and no support plan, are facing a recipe for disaster, you won't get disagreement from me. I imply that myself in my post as you'll note above. But there are plenty of people who commit themselves to the admittedly challenging abstinence-based approaches, under doctor/counselor supervision, using Sub as an detox/extended-detox tool, and with support plans that include a firm, humble belief in a higher power. According to the home page, Dr J has patients like this. I don't believe this is a recipe for disaster. And I have yet to be persuaded by any facts that this approach isn't very possible for some patients.

It's not at all evident to me yet where Seekin Sober falls on this spectrum. Perhaps, when he (I assume he, but maybe she) is comfortable, he'll share more details. Which leads to a totally separate issue. There seems to be sensitivity about non-PC comments made when Sub maintenance is the topic of discussion (which I understand completely given the negativity on other boards). It would be great if we could extend the same care and courtesy to those looking to share their abstinence-based approaches, however flawed they might be. For example, I found your posts accusing Seekin Sober of some multi-thread conspiracy to be condescending and unproductive. I think it's disingenuous to say something like that and then try to say no disrespect is meant. It's inherently disrespectful and frankly irrelevant.



Im not sure if i've quoted this right or not as i've yet to figure it out.

Matt:
The point im making when i say that i've found another thread that is identical to this guy here and i think its the same person is that he has already tried this short term method on his own and here he is back again so clearly short term detox did not work(Thats of course if it is in fact the same guy). I am not speakin negatively by saying such things but it just seems that if this is the same guy, then i cant understand why he wouldnt try long term maintnance treatment given the short term route clearly didnt work. I will never believe in the short term method because it just doesnt make sense how a person can repair so much damage done from addiction in a couple weeks. Thats what makes zero sense. I support any form of recovery a person chooses but for me to lie to this guy when i truly believe its the same guy who has already failed with this short term method would not be fair of me.

Also, i would have to say that i dont agree with him not doing this properly under a doctors care but thats really none of my business. I honestly could not point you in the direction of the statistics of relapse for short term detox but i can tell you this, every single person who has come through here using short term method was told to let us know how they do, but every last one of them seems to disappear back into active addiction. That is statistic enough for me. It just seems like such a waste to use short term detox when everybody i know of or have heard of either disappears or is back on suboxone within weeks or months of their short detox. Or even worse im sure some dont make it back at all possibly of overdose etc. etc. This thing is nothing to play around with and in my opinion, short term detox is a serious waste as i mentioned above. Think what you may but, i meant everything i said in the message you quoted with nothing but respect and truth. I was not being condescending nor counterproductive. I see what hes doing as being counterproductive and i simply said so, in other words. Im sorry you mistook what i said as disrespectful but i only said what i felt. I want nothing more than this guy to come back saying hes doing so well and hes still drug free in a year or however long. What i dont want is the alternative for this guy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Lifesaver - you're certainly entitled to your opinion and I appreciate the constructive tone. Thanks for replying.


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