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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:15 am 
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Hi, I'm 45, my name is Gregg and I've just taken Sub for the first time 3 hours and 48 minutes ago. I last used Saturday at 10:00 pm making it nineteen 7.5mg percocets for the day. My 24 hour abstinence mark was 10:00 pm last night (Sunday night, I'm writing this in the early morning hours of Monday) and I never thought I'd make it. By 10:00 I was in hell. I was terrified of PW and tortured myself for hours searching for "How long do I have to wait before I can take Suboxone?" like everybody does, frantically looking for the anecdote that was the one I wanted to hear. But, of course, for every "I took Suboxone 3 seconds after I shot an ounce of junk and I'm feeling great!" result, there were two more that said "Man, I waited 3 days 'til my legs fell off before I took it, and I went into immediate PW so bad I died."

In the end, I had waited long enough and said "screw it," cut my first 8mg pill into eight roughly equal little chunks with a tiny bit of dust leftover from the chopping process, and then chickened out and only put the dust under my tongue first. I figured this was roughly equal in mass to about half of one of my skillfully crafted 1mg chunks, so maybe 0.5mg or so. Talk about over thinking it. So anyway, I did it, started buggin', and waited. 5 minutes. 10 minutes. 15 minutes. Then at about 18 minutes I actually thought I could detect a tiny, tiny, change in head state. It was so slight that at first I couldn't tell whether I felt better or worse, just different. After another 20 minutes I decided I wasn't dying so I put a 1mg piece under my tongue. Damn this stuff tastes nasty. 15 minutes or so went by and I actually felt a little better. "Little" is a relative term here, I still wanted to die.

I have continued at that pace for the last few hours and I now have about 5mg on board. Though definitely better, I still feel really punk in my head and generally sick. I can handle the physical stuff, though with some effort (it ain't free) but I am barely keeping it together mentally. Is that normal considering I didn't taper at all over the last few days, just quit and 24 hours later took Sub. I could really use some feedback on this. I'm supposed to go to a follow up with my doc today (Monday) but if I still feel like this I'm gonna pass I think.

I need to know that this is gonna get easier as my brain learns to deal without heroin or oxycodone. Can anyone share their experience with me? I'm basically living on hope that I will feel better the further I get from my quit date.

BTW, I should have mentioned that last Friday I went down to a recovery outfit and got into the Suboxone outpatient recovery program. That's how I got the Subs in the first place. As soon as I feel like I can function I will be hooking up with my friendly neighborhood NA troupe. I did an inpatient program in 2003 for oxycontin and have been fairly clean since. This current relapse is the first one that got out'ta hand and out'ta control. It is obvious to me now that I never took my recovery seriously. I think I am ready now, or at the very least I am in a completely different place than I was in 2003. I hope it means I'm ready. I want to be done with this, including the Sub.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:41 am 
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Hi OP and welcome to the forum. Congratulations on making a decision to stop the chaos of active addiction. Now I'm no doctor, but it's my opinion that you may not have taken enough suboxone to feel better. You started out with awfully low doses. (Is that what your doctor told you to take?) 5 mg is a very low induction dose. But that's just my opinion. If it were me, I'd take another 2 mg until you feel lots better. It's obvious you won't go into P/W, so now your goal is to stop the withdrawals and get to feeling "normal" (what most people say they feel after they induce).

Please keep us posted on your progress and let us know how your appt with your doc goes. Again, welcome to the forum.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:43 am 
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You should feel good about the part that your really no different than anyone else on this forum... You have much more than Hope here !!!!!! With the help of your Dr. you will find a dosage amt. that works for you, dose 1 time a day, we've all gone through this part at the beginning, It only took me 3-4 days to figure out my dosage amt.. and yes there were a few rough days, but you really have no choice.. By the way WELCOME, Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:41 am 
Congragulations on making the choice to change your life!! You've made a great choice!! Like hat said, i would go ahead and take 2mg's at a time until you feel better. You'll know when you get to that point because all the negative crap your feeling will go away. Just a question, you said,"i want to be done with this including sub". Are you doing a short taper or are you not sure at the moment? Short taper's have a high relapse rate. Im in my 19th month now and my mind has grown emensously. Although i was doing really good, even at 7 months my mind was still pretty toxic. I know for me personally, a short taper would have been a waist of time for me. I am so glad i chose maintenence. You gotta give yourself and your mind time to heal. Thats what suboxone does. Gives you a chance to get all the stuff in your life in order and allows you to work on the reasons you chose drugs in the first place. This may all be a little much since your just starting out and im not trying to overload you. Im just trying to help. I hope everything works well for you and goodluck at your follow up!! You will be so happy with your decision once you get stable.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:36 am 
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Thanx all of you for your kind words of encouragement, lord knows I need it.

A couple of you mentioned upping my dose to achieve better results. I certainly will if it'll work, but before I posted here I discovered the site via an article by Suboxdoc (he's the resident MD and founder, yeah?) about the 4mg ceiling, and that pretty much nothing changes above that dose. I figured by doing 5mg I was kinda covering my bases. Do you all have another experience where you do feel effects past the 4mg ceiling? If so I'll bump my dose immediately. Please answer soon as I am eager to hear what you have to say about larger doses. Meanwhile, I feel like I'm right on the edge; still pacing constantly, mind all anxious and fearful. It sux hard.

Again, thanx for the warm welcome and I look forward to hearing from you all.

~G


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:08 am 
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opr8r,

The 4mg ceiling is a generally accepted number, does not necessarily apply to everyone equally. Because we are all so different it absolutely does not mean that your receptors are saturated yet at 5mg, you probably need more.

Especially at induction, I would be taking more.

I too was wondering if you plan on doing long term sub or a rapid taper?

BTW, I took 16mg my first day (8mg in the am and 8mg in the pm).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:51 am 
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For induction, people usually start at a comfortable dose above the ceiling to make sure your receptors are saturated to stop the withdrawals and address cravings. You need to get stabilized first, then you can start working on getting down to 5 or so mg. Many people on maintenance take between 6-16 mg (sometimes more, sometimes less). It just depends on the person. You should have enough in your system now so that you don't feel ANY more discomfort. That's why I personally think you should take more. Your starting dose will depend not so much on the mg, but more so when you feel the w/d and cravings dissipate. You have plenty of time after you've stabilized to get down closer to the ceiling. Hope this makes sense. Good luck.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:17 pm 
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Hi OP,

I'm new, too. I am day 8 on Sub today. I went from 75mg methadone to Sub, taking 6 days off of methadone and using a couple of vic to ease some of the w/d symptoms. I was very concerned about pwd's from methadone so I understand why you are doing what you are doing....scared and titrating....but i agree, you probably need a higher dose. My dr. said to take up to 16mg the first day if needed. I didn't need that, I took 8mg. I started kind of like you did, 2mg to see if pwd would occur, they didn't, so took 2mg more, and then at 6pm took 4mg totalling 8mg the first day. I felt fantastic.

I would encourage you to keep your dr. appt today and talk to him about this. Another thing I do, and this is just me, is I try to follow his orders and not dose myself, or change doses without asking him. Even when I took the 2mg instead of 4mg the first day I called him first. It is just a way for me to remain accountable. Maybe its overboard, but oh well. I need to be cautious.

Good luck and hang in there. I am doing well, had a rough headache day yesterday but I doubt its the sub so much as being unable to eat much right now. I am thrilled I have made this decision. My whole outlook is back to normal again, postiive and upbeat, joy etc.

Chinagirl


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:03 pm 
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I think you should take more until you feel good, dont worry about the ceiling EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT :)

Good luck and congrats on being proactive about your addiction!!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:18 pm 
Something else that is a huge factor in my opinion is, the amount of absorption your actually getting. You may take 8mg's and only absorb 2mg's. Just an example not a fact. It just depends. Im stable with 16mg's however i am about to start to lower my dosage. And like i said, this is my 19th month. So, just be patient and dont worry too much about the ceiling level etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:38 pm 
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I won't comment on the dosage or process other than to say keep moving in the right direction. You made a good and positive decision keep that mindset and follow through. You are dealing with a disease that will kill you if you let it. When you reach a time of weakness find that neighborhood NA group and call someone or go to a meeting. Don't let yourself go back to the one thing that can be predicted and that is that the disease gets stronger as we get weaker. I struggled for months before finally letting go. Save yourself a lot of pain and stay on the right track brother. We all face the same perils in recovery and pain both physical and emotional is an unfortune part. You'll find things will get easier and easier. Pray ceaselessly to whatever you see as your higher power; the thing that made you think of stopping, whatever it might be. I'll pray for you too. Be good to yourself; don't go back.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Congradulations on taking back control of your life again. It sounds like you have been on this path for awhile, its time to get off for good. Suboxone is going to help you do that a great deal, but you need to be ready. It's not going to get you high but it will stop the roller coaster. If you are still feeling crappy I would recommend taking a little more. It should make you have no w/d's and very little if not no cravings.

As far as your plan to stop subs soon, I would really think about it after you get stabilized, I am hopeful you will have a different view of things. If your really and truely ready to be done with H and pills suboxone is the answer.

Please let us know how your doing, there is a online chat here tonight at 9pm if you need to talk :D

Hope your doing great :!:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:55 pm 
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Wow, you guyz are righteous! I'm really glad to be here. My mind is not operating quite correctly and your insights are invaluable. I have indeed increased my dose, I've got about 16mg onboard right now since 10:00 pm last night, just took numbers 15 & 16 about 20 minutes ago. I do feel a bit better, probably a combination of increased doseage plus time since last use, but I'm still illin' pretty good. I was an idiot and had a monster habit, like many of you I'm sure, and I may just not be able to completely suppress my WD symptoms. I've read that this is a possibility. Several of my user ex-buddies who had been down this road before strongly suggested that I go the methadone route as they knew my habit and suspected that bupe wasn't gonna cut it all the way, but I simply cannot drive the 40+ miles to my nearest clinic every day, plus meth scares me.

Chinagirl, you make an excellent point about accountability, thank you. I'm quite frankly struggling with this issue as there are very real financial considerations involved. Too honest and I screw myself kinda thing, ya know? Given my history, my doc prescribed 24mg a day to start. Due to convolutions of money, insurance, transportation issues (I'm a disabled vet) etc., the more I can stretch my bupe, the better. I am at a place where I want to just tell everybody the whole ugly truth about my whole nasty junky scene and come clean, being completely honest with everyone from this point on. But I'm terrified that if I do I'm gonna wind up with no meds, no recovery program, and no resources. I guess I'm really confused right now. Lacking a better plan, I'm concentrating on detoxing right now so that I can get my mind back and start making better decisions about my life. I've obviously not done too well in that department to date.

I am literally moved to tears right now at the warmth and friendliness of all your words. When I think of the enormity of my "issues," and the difficulties and pain that still lay ahead of me as I travel this new road, it sustains me to know that there are others who share my burden, who have been there before me, and who are so willing to help a slob like me.

Thank you all so much. I must go now as there are still many miles of pacing the floor left for me to do.

~G


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:09 pm 
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opr8r,

Thank you for your service to our country. I appreciate it.

Another thing I wanted to mention, but don't have any kind of good explanation for, is the fact that when I took small amounts of sub then 1 or 2 hours later another small amount, etc. it seemed to be nowhere near as effective as when I took the whole 8mg dose all at once? Can't explain it well, but I know without a doubt that taking the bigger dose all at once was much more effective for me, especially at the beginning of my sub treatment.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

I don't have any experience with H, but I took enough OxyContin up the nose to kill 10 men and suboxone worked for me. I got to the point where snorting an 80mg OC barely got a rise out of me...crazy eh. Anyway, the sub will work, it may take a little but it's going to do the job.

PS---were all slobs at one point or another (think slobbering babies), some people like you and I manage to maintain our slobbiness (I think I just made a new word) into our adult life...you're not alone there, man...but you can put a stop to it like I did too.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:55 pm 
I can almost guarantee you suboxone will do what your wanting/needing it too do 110%. It just takes time. It will do exactly what methadone does except without the high and you will be very clear headed and your life will get so much better. Now, im not slamming methadone people so please dont take it that way. About what Romeo said, you definitely need to try an take all of it at once because from what i've heard, opiates have a certain little window of time that you have to get all of your dose into or else it doesnt quite work as well. Im sure when you've taken percocet you took all of what you wanted to take at once so it all kicked in at the same time. Heres an example. For instance it takes you 4 percocets to keep you out of withdrawal an feeling good. If you woke up an took 3 percocets and then waited an hour an took that 4th one, they wouldnt quite hit you as hard and it wouldnt work as well. At least i know thats how it was for me with that kind of stuff. All im saying is, its best to take your dose all at once so you get the proper relief. Anyways, just hang in their and just know, you have made a great choice!!


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 Post subject: You are not a slob
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:10 am 
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Please do not call yourself a slob. You are a precious child of God and your life and feelings are every bit as important as anyone here or anywhere. Don't think of your problems as enormous; think of them in terms of small attainable goals and one by one start to move to rectify them. After time you begin to realize that what once seemed to be a monster can be tamed by a little willigness and honesty. DO NOT be afraid to reach out for help. It is what keeps persons with long term sobriety stay sober. Recovery is truly the gift that keeps on giving. Be joyous my friend because if you didn't use today then your God took time out His day to perform a miracle on you. That should be evidence enough that He loves and is watching over you. Don't focus on your obstacles; focus on just staying sober and doing the next right thing and things will fall in place. It won't always be easy but it will save your life and bring you a freedom and happiness you've never known before. Prepare yourself for the best yeas of your life. God bless you in your efforts.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:00 pm 
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First off, congratulations on taking control of your life. You are now on the road to recovery.

Next, I agree that 4mg or 5mg is quite low as an induction dose. The vast majority of folks who have come here and shared about starting suboxone have been inducted at 16mg or higher. Now, granted, that may be too much for some folks, but I would be surprised to hear that your doctor only prescribed 4mg to start you off, that's pretty uncommon from what I've seen in two years on suboxone.

Also, you mentioned you are thinking of going to NA. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but you may want to keep the fact that you are on suboxone under your hat. I have heard many, many horror stories about how recovering addicts have been treated at NA meetings after disclosing that they were on suboxone and I've seen it firsthand with people who admitted they were on Methadone. "You're not clean" "You're still using" "Get off that shit" stuff like that.


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 Post subject: Dude, your fine!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:06 pm 
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Oh yea, don't worry about "whether it has been long enough since I took the last opiate". In your case, it has been PLENTY long enough, ESPECIALLY when using short-acting opiates. You only have to wait 24 hours, if that. I, however, was on 100 MG of methadone for 3 years, and was supposed to wait 4 days before my induction since it is so long acting. I was only able to wait 2. When I was first inducted, I was so excited, but I didn't feel NEARLY as good as I was promised I would...but I did feel better, and definitely not worse. I convinced myself it was because I hadn't waited long enough after stopping methadone, and I was right. Each day I got better and better, and within 2 weeks I was completely stable. Suboxone is truly a miracle drug and has saved my life. It has all the same benefits as Methadone mentally (like good mood etc), but without making you high in any way shape or form...YAY no more nodding out! And no more small pupils! Now, I almost have a college degree! I went from begging people for money on the streets, sleeping outside, to almost having a degree....ALL BECAUSE OF SUBOXONE (and my desire to change my life)....Just amazing. No relapse, clean since August 31, 2008.

Anyways, good luck with your recovery. I swear, every time I come on this website I have flashbacks of how bad my life use to be and I just can't help but say in my head, over and over again, "I am SO GLAD MY LIFE IS NOT LIKE THAT ANYMORE. I am so glad. thank you, thank you, thank you. I feel so blessed. I feel so thankful. I feel SO grateful."

Anyways, I know that sounds stupid..but seriously, I think my past life literally traumatized me. I have addiction PTST, lol.

Well, I am a rambler...I wish you the best.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:51 am 
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It's been a couple days since you posted in here and I am hoping you stuck it out to see how things went. I will agree on two accounts of what others said which is that A) you weren't taking enough and B) taking it all at once is better in my opinion.

I had what I consider to be a fairly monster habit as well. When I started, I had to take 24mg in order to feel okay. I stayed on that for a few months and then was easily able to go down to 20mg for a couple months and then 16 mg for 2 years. I will also say that I was not properly educated on HOW to take the suboxone so I wasn't getting the full effect of it. Make sure you do not eat or drink for 20 min. When you take your sub (pills) there are a few techniques (look under how to take suboxone thread). The bottom line is that you need to decrease the amount of saliva and increase the amount of time you keep it in your mouth. With the pills, I was shooting for 20 minutes. I swallowed the spit but you don't have to do that. Just make sure you are taking it correctly and I suggest asking for the films because they are easier to get max absorbtion. I think I had to take so much in the beginning because I just wasn't taking it right. I put it under my tongue and would do anything to make it go away as quickly as possible including smoking because that dissolves it. I never held any spit in my mouth at all. That doesn't work very well.

Once you are doing these things, I think you can get to the correct dose. You should feel "normal". Only the first couple weeks did I think of using but that was just habit. There were no real cravings. I was ecstatic that it was working. It was amazing.

I really hope you come back and give an update.

Cherie

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