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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:09 am 
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I guess this is just a vent if anything, but now that I am down to 8mgs a day, I am so irritable in the AM before I dose. I can't does until the earliest 9am because I have children that I need to get off to school and fed breakfast etc so it's kinda hard to not talk while doing all of that. Esp when I have 7 and 9 yr old boys and a 2yr old who is already speech delayed, I try to wait till I can put her in front of a video for 45 mins so I can dose. So anyway, since going down to 8mgs I am so moody before I dose in the morning, I snap at everyone and just get so annoyed with everything. I guess I am just gonna have to start waking up at 6 am so I can dose before everyone wakes up. Which sucks cause I can't sleep at night, so i't hard for me to get up. Oh well, thanks for listening.


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:07 am 
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Wow, sorry about all my spelling and grammar errors in that post, I was typing faster than I can think again!


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:37 am 
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Hi RTLmom,

Gosh, I'm sorry you're having such a rough go of it lately. Unfortunately, I don't have any good answers for you. I'm not sure I understand how the drop to 8 mg could be responsible, but that doesn't mean it's not. Could it be part of how you FEEL about having tapered down? As in perhaps it's psychological?

Getting up earlier just might do the trick. Forgive me for not recalling how long you've been on sub, so maybe you're dealing with feelings that the full opiates were covering up? Just a thought...

Even though I have no answers for you I just wanted to let you know I'm still supportive of you. Take care and vent away!

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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:44 am 
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The only reason I think it is the sub is because I went from 16mgs daily to 8mgs in a matter of about 3 weeks. (my doc wanted me down to 12mgs but I wanted to get down to 8 quickly due to not having insurance and the cost of the meds) plus I feel a lot less irritable after I dose. IDK, its kinda been a roller coaster since last week when I started the 8mgs. I feel great one day and then have a hard time the next. I'm sure it is mostly psychological because I don't feel any physical symptoms just mental.


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Yeah, that's a very, very quick jump down. My completely wild and uneducated guess is your reduced dose is what is causing -or at least contributing to- your mood. I'm on 4mg right now and honestly, I feel very good and positive and upbeat for about half the day after I dose ( I take my 4mg all at once, in the morning)....and then it wears off towards the evening hours, and by the time I get up in the morning I am watching the clock, waiting for 10am to roll around so I can dose again.


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:35 pm 
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RTL: My [very] slightly educated guess is that how you are feeling is directly related to the dose reduction. You have cut your dose in half in a very short time. Some recommend as little as 10% dose reductions at a time. Although, when dropping from 16mg patients often seem to get away with a larger drop without much if any trouble. Still, cutting your dose in half may have been too much at one time. I personally went from 16 mg to 12 mg without too much trouble. I am now attempting to drop to 8 mg and have had a bit of a challenge when the 3rd day rolls around and have ended up having some 12mg days thrown in along with the 8 mg days. That is pretty much how it went for me when I went from 16 to 12. I have found that how I dose today is reflected in how I feel three days from now. There really seems to be a lag in dose and effect of about three days. Now, mind you, I don't at all advocate, and experts do not recommend, dosing based on how you feel. That is not a good idea over the long term. I have done this only in the context of reducing my dose. Prior to either of my reductions I strictly adhered to the same daily dose for several months or more.

The symptoms that you are describing really do seem to be directly related to your dose reduction. Now, what to do about it? You may want to consider moving your dose to the evening. Some people seem to have problems with dosing at night and not being able to sleep. Others find that dosing at night actually helps them sleep. If you are already having sleep problems and also seem to be running low in the AM, a nighttime dose might be exactly what you need. It might be something to consider. My other suggestion would be to consider trying 12 mgs for a couple of weeks and then do the drop to 8 mg. It sounds like that's what your doc suggested as well. Of course, you also have the option to try to just ride this out. You will likely get stabilized at 8 mgs within a week or two. Only you can decide if it's worth the extra discomfort. Just remember, you don't get any extra points for suffering - and neither does your family.

In the end you'll have to decide what works best for you. Hopefully some of my comments will help you in making that decision.


Last edited by donh on Tue May 04, 2010 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:42 pm 
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I think donh brings up some excellent points. I don't have any experience in tapering down (with the exception of doing so quickly for surgery), so those issues didn't occur to me. But after considering the logic that don offered, it would sure make sense that your drop in dosage could be the culprit.

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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Try split dosing by taking 1-2mg at night


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Thanks for everyone's replies. I ended up taking 12mgs today instead of 8mgs. (my dr wants me on the 12mgs at this point so it's not like Im taking more than Im supposed to). My irritability just didn't go away once I dosed with 8mgs this morning. Idk, I just felt so great on 8mgs the first couple days and then it hit me. I def. tried to go down in dosage too fast. So, Im gonna try the 8mgs again tomorrow. Plus tomorrow I get my unemployment compensation payment so I will be out running errands all day with my daughter and staying busy so it will keep my mind off of things.
That is another part of the problem. When I have nothing to do all day and I'm just sitting at home my mind goes crazy, lol.
So, I think I def. TRY the 8mgs again tomorrow. Maybe I should do like 12mgs like every third day for now or something. Idk, we'll see. My dr is very flexible anyway (I seriously have the best sub dr, very understanding about most things) so he may even think it's a good idea.
All I can do is try at this point. Thank you everyone for the thoughts and ideas. I'll keep you posted.


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:14 pm 
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Well I am glad you posted this because that is my EXACT experience in going from 16mg to 12mg. I didn't have withdrawal, but my mood was definitely impacted. Now that I am only on 8mg, I seriously miss the pick me up in the evenings. The problem for me too is that I have pain issues and so when I have pain I increase the dose to 12mg and do that for several days usually (sometimes only a day) and then drop back down. I am finding that bouncing around is difficult....actually...I will go make my own post about that.

But thanks for saying something because I was thinking I was a psycho.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:42 pm 
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Ugh, cherie, that is another thing. Now on the 8mgs I feel my neuropathy in my feet/ankles.legs again. I haven't felt that pain in almost a year! Not good! that is the pain the started me REALLY addicted to pills. Thank god it's not nearly as bad as it would be not on anything though.... I'm starting to think about talking to my dr about keeping me on 8mgs for awhile yet.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:20 am 
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It is true that on 8mg I do feel the neuropathy in my feet. Not like it was before, but I can feel it. Like right now sitting here I feel this sharp pain right on the under side of my right foot and those pains are so PERSISTENT. The thing is that when I went back on suboxone I went from NOTHING and got back on it so it made me feel a bit high for 3-4 days before things even started leveling out and I had to slowly increase the dose over 2 weeks to manage the pain. When I went back in to the doc at 2 weeks, I just really just gotten to the 8mg and it was doing ok so that is where we settled. But then over the next 2 weeks where I really had a chance to stabilize on the 8mg, I could feel my feet again. I didn't want to say anything to the doctor because I was sure she would just think I was "drug seeking" and the chart notes get sent to my primary doctor and he is so skeptical of suboxone that if he saw the dose go up it would just confirm what he already think about it (that it is just another drug like methadone). So here I am with painful feet, although WAY more livable than before. I would prefer not to feel my feet at all like it was before. I mean, it is possible with suboxone to not feel the neuropathy at all and I know that. So it is hard to sit here and take less when I know that.

Also, my feet/ankles are VERY stiff in the morning. The first walk across the floor and into the kitchen it very awkward for me. Is that related to the neuropathy?

When I was on sub before I didn't even know I had neuropathy. When I went off and had the pain in my feet I had told my doctor that of all the symptoms I had, if he could just get rid of the foot pain I would be happy. He thought it was a withdrawal symptom and so did I for a while. But when all the other symptoms went away and I was left with this horrible foot pain that NEVER got better, I realized I had a problem. We still don't know what is causing it because I haven't gotten the blood work done. But......what does that really matter. I remember feeling my feet 3 years ago BEFORE suboxone but I was on so many drugs I didn't feel it often and never looked into it. I only felt it when I ran out of drugs and assumed it was withdrawal.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:00 am 
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Cherie, are you diabetic? That is what my neuropathy is from. That is actually how I found out I was diabetic. I was having horrible leg pain, horrible. My dr thought is was from some bulging discs in my back, and sciatica. But once I got the MRI they didn't see any nerve compression. I kept asking them to check me for diabetes (It runs in my fam, and my mom was diagnosed when she was 32 and my grandmother also found out when she was young cause of leg pain) so he would just check my urine and would happen to be ok when he would check it. So, I finally bought my own blood sugar meter and kept track of my sugars and sure enough they were way too high. So, I finally took the numbers to my dr to show him. I guess they thought since I wasn't the typical profile for diabetes (I'm pretty skinny from the high blood sugars) they didn't think of that. So yeah, I'm diabetic that's why I have the neuropathy. I believe it's so bad b/c my sugars went untreated for so long.
Also, I am also the same way in the morning, my ankles are very stiff when I first get up. I am assuming that is also the neuropathy.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:21 pm 
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I don't know if I am diabetic. I was tested a few years ago and they said no. But there are a lot of people in my family with diabetes. I tend to sweat when I eat. My feet frigging hurt. I am really glad you said you experience the stiff foot/ankle thing too because it is so strange. Anyways.....I was supposed to get blood work done but I have ADD and I can't seem to get it together to remember to fast long enough to get it done. BUT....I had bloodwork done 4 months ago at the hospital when I was in withdrawal and lord knows I hadn't eaten in at least 2 days then and still no diabetes. But I DO have the body type for it too. My mom is a nurse and she always says she is sure I have it. I have had low blood sugars my whole life.

So I may get a meter and start checking like you did. How often are you supposed to do it? I am going to visit my parents this weekend and they both have a meter. I could try theirs.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:09 am 
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Take your fasting first (when you first get up) a non diabetics fasting sugar should be under 100.

Then take your sugar one hour after every meal. A non diabetics 1hr after sugars should be under 130.

I think it's a great idea to start taking them. It would explain the pain in your feet and ankles. Good luck. Let me know how it goes!


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:10 am 
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Oh and if you are just hanging out or doing whatever and your feet start really hurting, chec, your sugar then too, to see if it's elevated.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:27 am 
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One of the first things my sub doc said is that the brain will create the pain that caused you to become addicted. Believe me, I have scoliosis in 2 parts of my spine, the new one was diagnosed after sliding on a water slide & it looked like a filet knife was used on my back, it took it down to the last layer of skin & even though my body trembled, I didn't feel it. So I went to the doc to check on the wound, found out my skin was numb from my bra strap up permanently & he did his tests & revealed more scoliosis. Since quitting regular pills(which didn't truly help the pain) I have had good days & then theere are the days that make me want to die. I take Ibuprofen like never before & tell myself it is my brain tricking me into using. Luckily for me, the suboxone after 7 days made me realize I do NOT need that other crap...because it didn't work either for the pain. The brain will pray on your weakness, mine are back/neck pain & fear of withdrawals. Thats just my 2 cents worth. But it did comfort me when I am in pain to acknowledge that some if not all, is my brain. I know the pain is real at times, I don't want to undermine your situation, but blaming your brain instead of focusing on how bad it hurts may help you. It did me.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 2:22 am 
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jackcrack, what is your foot pain like? I had terrible pain in my feet for a while, the doctors couldn't figure it out. It was awful, and always worse in the morning. If I had to get out of bed and walk right away in the morning it was hell, like someone was stabbing me right in the arches of my foot. I rubbed them, I soaked them, I used ice packs, nothing worked.

It turned out to be a result of chronic tension in the backs of my calf muscles. I started finding the sore points by rubbing my calf muscle along my opposite knee. When I found the sore spots (they didn't hurt until I pressed on them) I would then work the knot out. It was a painful process, but within a couple of weeks the foot pain was gone and it has never come back.

A lot of "unexplainable" pain comes from tension in another part of the body. Migraines, tension headaches, many kinds of chronic pain. I used to have horrible pain in my feet, legs (doctors said it was sciatica), lower and upper back, a pain that started in my back and shot down my arm, neck, etc., and I have found the corresponding points that refer the pain for most of them. I resolved about 90% of the pain that my doctors had diagnosed as fibromyalgia using the trigger points too.

I know I have brought this up elsewhere on the forum, and I kind of hesitate to keep bringing it up because I don't want to be annoying people. On the other hand, I have had no less than ten friends express undying gratitude to me for turning them on to this book: Trigger Point Therapy Workbook. I am not exaggerating when I say that buying this book was the best 20 bucks I ever spent.

My mother in law was having horrible pain in her knees, doctor said it was arthritis. She could barely climb the stairs and walking was really painful. The docs had her on prescription NSAIDs and opiates. I showed her the trigger points, she was walking without pain after the first treatment (and it's all self-treatment, you don't have to pay someone to do it for you.)

My husband shattered his ankle a few years ago and has chronic pain from the injury. Based on his pain patterns, I worked on some points in his lower leg. After about 20 minutes of working on some very painful areas, the increase in his range of motion was shocking. In fact, knowing how to do this kept him walking all day when we went to Disneyland last fall.

I helped my boss fix a problem she's had with her hip since the birth of her 2nd daughter, 8 years ago. I cut my migraines down from like 6-8 a month to 1-2. I showed my sister where to work on her forearms and her "carpal tunnel" pain disappeared. She thought she was going to need surgery.

Honest to god, I am in no way affiliated with this book and I don't get anything for recommending it, other than the good feeling of knowing I've helped someone. A massage therapist recommended it to me. Trigger point therapy is an accepted, evidence-based practice, so it's not like a bunch of new-agey woo or anything. It's just that physical therapists or doctors usually do trigger point therapy by injecting lidocaine into the trigger points or by manual stretching of the affected muscle. The difference with this book is that the guy who wrote it figured out a way to relax the trigger points using accupressure techniques instead of a shot. And he made sure that you could do the treatments without further injuring yourself.

There are so many instances of chronic and even acute pain where doctors really don't understand the source, so they can't fix it. They look in the area that hurts and it looks like nothing is wrong and so they tell you it's all in your head or its fibromyalgia or a pinched nerve or whatever. This book explains how the source of the pain can be a nearby spot of chronic tension in a muscle. You don't even feel the tense spot - until you press on it and then it hurts like bloody hell. Pressing on those sore, tense, spots interrupts the pain signal and eventually you can get the trigger point deactivated. And when it goes, so does the pain.

Again, I apologize if it seems that I harp on this subject. It's just that I waited like a year to get this book after my massage therapist told me about it and even then I only got it because I was so deperate. When I realized how well it worked, I was kicking myself.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:09 am 
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Without highjacking the post, I have a question about the trigger points. I had to do PT for an injury on my neck resulting in Occipital Neuralgia from a fair ride that close on my neck(no, I didn't sue) After years of pain, I finally went to the recommended PT & she did the electro-shock stuff on my neck, which felt sooo good to me since the muscles were so tense it was the only thing that released it. My range of motion sucked, I couldn't turn my head to back out of a parking spot. So her next step was to lay me down flat, legs uncrossed( a hard one for me as I naturally cross my legs all the time) & she held my head at the base of my neck with her fingers for about 20 minutes. All of a sudden I felt my neck "give" & she asked if I felt that, so I said yes, & described it to her as if my neck took it's first 'breathe' in years. She said she knew what I meant & showed me how to tape 2 tennis balls side by side & replicate what she had done. That worked like a charm, I still have pain because I was an addict, & even though I suffered in pain, it was the only way to get my meds. They didn't just pass out the stuff like candy back then, they had monitors to register your pulse & other tools to tell if it was real. However, now I want to start doing it again. Is that the same premise of the book you referred to? If so, I can attest that trigger points can alleviate pain more meds. I WILL look into the book, so I can be clean & in as minimal pain as possible. Also, a friend was blown up in an IED 4 yrs ago, his leg was there kind of, but useless. When he retired from the Army, he began to work out religiously, he built up his strength, which made his pain all but disappear. So I also believe that if you have an injury that can be strengthened, then do so, the pain will dissipate. It is hard to whine about my scoliosis, occipital neuralgia, ovarian cysts, tmj etc, when he was blown over 100feet out of the burning Humvee & has continued to live a normal life! I try to remember his strength when I am feeling like crap, because honostly, I wouldn't switch shoes with him, so my pain must be less.

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