It is currently Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:59 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:17 pm 
Offline
New Poster
New Poster

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:46 pm
Posts: 2
Hello all- longtime Sub forum frequenter, first time posting. Not sure why now, but I guess I just want to log my two cents. I'm one of the angry ones. When I was first made aware of Subox, it was via my therapist... who holds an MSW and zero pharmaceutical credentials. He'd heard about this amazing new medication which could help me end my pill addiction. Broken foot and subsequent surgery led to my addiction. Mind you, on my worst day ever I took 7 vicodin; was usually 2 or 3 a day for about a year. I was doing the doctor shopping and the inventing symptoms and checking the medicine cabinets of the friends I was about to rip off, so I don't deny addict behavior. And I wanted to be done with it. Enter the miracle. I was told Subox would help me taper easily off of the pills and then when I was ready, POOF, I just stop the Subox. Easy peasy. I was told that only specialists could prescribe the stuff so it sounded pretty smart. Right?
So I drive an hour away to meet the only Subox "specialist" in the area; I didn't know at the time that all he'd done was take a 8 hour online course to become a specialist (apparently you can now waive even that if you provide proper credentials).
So I meet said specialist and, during my intake, did he ask me what other methods I'd tried to quit? (none) Did he ask if I'd ever been to rehab? (I hadn't) Did he suss out any other treatment avenues which may have made for a better first line defense against my addiction. No. He did not. He was only too happy to tell me about the miracle of Subox... with the caution that, while not addictive, it does create a physical dependency. But don't worry about that because it's a totally different thing.
For the next 5 years, I've been on the Sub train to he-l-l. This medication has been so much worse than what it was prescribed to treat. The ease with which the dr upped my dosage... depression? More Subox should help. Pain? Definitely more Subox. Within a year I was at 24 mg per day. The monthly dr appts and piss tests... the endless haranguing with the pharmacies to please keep this in stock, and the accompanying "you useless addict" treatment I received when I showed any kind of distress that I may wind up not getting my Rx filled on time. The constipation. The depression. The money. My god, the money. And through it all, zero control on the part of my drs (I switched when a local dr became available, but the prescribing behavior didn't change). Zero plan for how to get me off of the stuff. Zero. Anytime I said, "I'm really afraid of being on this for so long... why am I still on this...?", I would get the "well we're partners in this, so when you're ready, you tell me." Ok, here's the thing. You're an addiction specialist, right? When have you ever offered an addict more of anything and had them turn it down? When have you ever told an addict "the process of coming off is going to suuuuuuck," and had them say "sign me up!" We're ADDICTS, you jerks. You're supposed to be the grown-up in this situation. You're supposed to have a treatment plan which involves induction, duration and dose and withdrawal. You're not my partner. You're not my friend in this. If you were, you wouldn't be taking my $200 a month for 5 years; likely 4 years and 9 months longer than you should have.
OK, so yep. Angry. And of course some of you are going to say "well it worked, right!" Sure, but so likely would have 2 weeks in rehab. I'm not saying that would have been a given, but for crying out loud... shouldn't it have been suggested BEFORE putting me on the Sub train to misery? And I get that it's a miracle for some and blah blah blah... but it hasn't been for me. And shame on RB for the reckless disregard for all of us who are on this stuff... involuntarily doing their phase 3 testing for them.
When I finally realized that it was up to me to end the nightmare, I began my self-tapering from 28mg to 3mg over 2 years. And 16 days ago, I jumped. And I'm happy to report I'm doing fine. I've used a few comfort meds (nothing addictive so just calm down with the "you're not sober!" speeches); but mostly have been doing the "work." Pushing myself when I just want to lay down and rest. And again. Taking walks. Taking vitamins. Drinking tons of water. NOT reading Subox forums with the endless "oh god I can't do this!" posts and the accompanying horror stories. If you're reading this and are thinking about jumping, YOU CAN DO IT. When prepared and with a good sense of what to expect (misery)... you'll get through. It has helped that I was able to take 2 weeks off of work and that my partner has been willing to put up with my whining. But again, those weren't 2 weeks of PTO that I wanted to spend dealing with Subox withdrawal. Thinking lying on a beach somewhere would have felt better. Though I have bonded with my cats on a whole new level; given the sleeping I've been doing, I think they're convinced that I'm one of them.
Want to hear the worst part? My dr didn't know I'd been tapering so kept Rx the same amount. When I jumped, I had 4 full boxes of the crap that my partner and I sat and methodically put through the document shredder (and then to a Rx for disposal). There was no turning back; didn't even save a tiny emergency piece. Which I never needed anyway, so whatevs. But that was, like 1K worth of the stuff that I just wasted.
Anyway, that's my story. Feel free to comment, ask questions, e-shame me w whatever you found disagreeable... because you know what? I'm done with this stuff. It's behind me. And the freedom is divine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:19 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4127
I think that part of the problem here is that you are very naive about addiction itself. You know a lot about being on suboxone, but you've never had the experience of dealing with opiate addiction without the medication.

You say that two weeks of rehab would have allowed you a quicker path off opioids, but I don't think you have any conception of what it is like to go through that. Sure, the detox is quicker, although much more intense, but do you know what the relapse rate is after getting out of a thirty day abstinence-based rehab? 90 to 95%

Your opioid addiction has changed the pleasure/reward circuits in your brain and caused memories that can be triggered by certain situations, sights, sounds, even smells. These triggers can cause your brain to go down the path toward addiction that has already been created by your earlier use.

Buprenorphine takes care of the withdrawal symptoms, the obsession and cravings for your drug of choice. You were protected from those very difficult and very real addiction problems for five years.

I'm sorry that your doctor was kind of a dud. He sounded willing to help, though, and you failed to ask him for it. Whether you want to admit it or not, you are also an adult. When I decided I wanted to taper I looked for my own information. I tapered from 16 mg to 2 mg with no trouble. I'm still on buprenorphine because it helps with some chronic pain issues I have.

You don't seem to have had any trouble tapering and jumping off, so why do you have the attitude of a victim? You could have looked for information like this forum at any time. I'm glad you finally took responsibility for getting off a medication that you no longer wanted to be on.

The truth is that you have no idea what would have happened if you hadn't gone on suboxone right away. Do you think that you're the only person who became addicted to opioids, but could just walk away from it? Don't you think you could have been caught in a downward spiral that involved finding more and more destructive ways of getting your high? That's how the rest of us got here. I'm not sure why you think it couldn't have happened to you.

Your vision of your addiction only includes a two week stint in rehab and you're cured. That is actually super unrealistic. Taking responsibility for your own health and life is important. (Better late than never.) But your anger is misplaced. It's not buprenorphine's fault or your doctor's fault that you became an addict.

You will need to remain vigilant so that your addiction doesn't creep up on you again. There are tools you could learn and strategies you could use to make relapse less likely. Becoming addicted is not your fault, but it is your responsibility to manage your disorder. I wish you well in doing that.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:46 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Posts: 2300
Location: Tennessee
To be honest, I'm sick of posts like these, blaming suboxone for everything.

U blamed everything but the kitchen sink and urself, u take zero responsibility for being on buprenorphine. U didn't research anything in 5 yrs or even before u started this treatment?

I went to inpatient rehab, I didn't speak to a doctor about that or have to have any recommendation for that either. I did the research myself and didn't blame anyone when it didn't work on down the line. For the record, not many ppl can remain off opiates after rehab. Amy's statistics are spot on.

Bottom line, if suboxone was so miserable for u, why didn't u stop, nobody made u stay on it for 1 day or 5 yrs. If someone doesn't like the treatment they receive then they make changes. But I personally think it saved u a lot more than ur willing to give credit. Think of ur life without it, there's obviously a reason u needed help for ur addiction.

Do u have to like buprenorphine, no. But, on this forum, we don't allow bashing and that's why u came here. It's against our rules. I won't argue with u about that so don't even try. U obviously don't want to be told anything. How many times did u say in ur post 'I don't want to hear it'?

Blame blame blame suboxone, like it just jumped up into ur mouth and refused to let u go.

_________________
Jennifer


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:22 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 132
Rightside. Welcome. I was also a small time Vicodin addict when I started on suboxone. Even though I only abused pills for 18 months getting clean was more difficult than I imagined. I tried outpatient treatment and going to meetings before I started on suboxone. I was unable to stay clean on my own. I think that some day they will develop a different protocol for opiate addicts that used lower potency opiates in lower doses. When I went through induction, the first day I took 4 mg which took away 100% of my craving and symptoms. The next day I took 8 mg as directed and thereafter 16 mg a day. I never understood why I was instructed to take more than 4 mg a day. I know now that I was just wasting my money and possibly increasing my tolerance.

For 18 months I paid $350 a month because I was on way more than I needed. I had no education about suboxone when I first started only given a pamphlet from R.B. that claimed that your brain could be healed from the damage done by opiate abuse. What a crock! Anyway, after 18 months my insurance put suboxone on their formulary and I found a new doctor who immediately started to taper my dose. I am currently taking 2 mg a day which does okay for me. I am elderly so have aches and pains and have a history of depression so will stick with this dose for now. Also will take care of craving and will block the effects of opiates if I ever get the notion to try getting high, just this once.
Some people struggle with post acute withdrawal so I hope that you reach out for support if you need to and congratulation on being drug free. I know that doing to the doctor, peeing in a cup and dealing with pharmacies is not fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:30 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 627
Hey right,

You're a long time lurker so you've had the chance to become well read and knowledgeable about bup. Why did you ignore what you learned? Sounds like alot of self sabotage on your part.
Anything above the ceiling ~8mg is of no use to you and of no harm to you except to your pocketbook.
Maybe get reading glasses and re read the RB suboxone phase 3 clinical trials. All folks were fully informed. None were 'involuntarily' given suboxone.
After you were stable on it, tapering from 24-28 mgs to 8 mgs could have taken ~ a month or 2. The time after that should have been to go slow and low.
You lie to your Dr for 2 yrs in spite of s/he telling you they'd partner w you in tapering. And while hiding your tapering, you stockpile bup and then are pissed you had $1K stockpiled to shred ??
The only thing I agree w you on is for folks to ignore the horrid WD stories. I stopped at higher than you and had 4 crappy days. That's it. No horror story. I kept forgetting to take it and one day just stopped.

HUGE HUGE RED flag when you blame something or someone else. You're blaming bup and your Dr.
YOU drove to your appts to get a bup script. YOU drove to the pharm to fill your bup script. YOU shelled out $$$ for bup. YOU put it in your mouth to dissolve. Neither bup nor your Dr did did all that driving, spending and dissolving. You didn't cause your addiction but ONLY YOU are accountable to deal w it. Which means ONLY YOU are responsible for the actions you need to take to deal w your addiction. once you get this, that no one else or nothing else can do it for you, it becomes empowering and uplifting and is a key and crucial step toward staying off bup and in recovery.

Do you think the last 2 yrs of taper work is it, that now you're off, there is no more work to do? know that stopping can be easy or hard, your choice on how you did it. Its the staying stopped where a completely different set of work and effort comes in. Are you ready?

Hopefully you're well informed enough that you used your time on bup and have plans in place to avoid opiates in any and every way and have plans in place to deal life issues like stress and resentments, triggers for us all. Wishing you my best, P

Just read Amy's and jennjenn's posts. yep yep yep!!!

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:13 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 9:58 am
Posts: 882
Hi Rightside, Welcome! It is always good to read a success story even when it is one in which the poster sounds angry. My only concern then is, what happens with that anger? I hope that you can use it to continue to fuel you on your road to recovery. Although, in most cases that does not happen. Usually, if you have not done the work on yourself to learn about what lead you to become addicted in the first place, you almost always wind up back there! You did not say if you had been in any type of recovery program. I hope that you have all the luck! Please, keep posting so that we know how you are doing!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:47 pm 
Offline
New Poster
New Poster

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:46 pm
Posts: 2
Ahhhhh yes, as expected, with the exception of a couple of people who have the capacity to practice compassion, the majority of the responses to my post were judgmental and made huge assumptions on the part of my choices, behavior and experiences. Many of which were far wide of the mark and none of which actually warrant responses from me. That said, I would like to offer a couple of observations.
A wise therapist once told me "your feelings may not be facts, but they're also not up for debate." I leave that to you to interpret for yourself. Finally, I'm on day 17 and doing great, so any of the negativity thrown my way sort of gets lost in my massive pride in my accomplishment.
OK, so, thanks to those of you who offered some great food for thought. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom. Take good care of yourselves.
-rightside336

Edited to take out a personal attack. Amy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:25 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 9:58 am
Posts: 882
Hi Rightside, Yes, that was very good feedback! How we feel is how we feel regardless of the facts. However, and I of course, can only speak for myself, find it very important to try to get to the facts. I don't know that I would be an effective therapist if I didn't. Sometimes our feelings are based on something from the past and not what is currently happening. That is why I always ask so many questions. I would be remiss in my job if I did not help the person learn about their feelings and where they come from. When you said you were angry, my first thought was at who? Your therapist for suggesting suboxone, yourself for saying yes, or whatever the reason or situation was that lead you to addiction? I am thrilled that you have 17 days! That is wonderful! But, I do go back to my concern, what work have you done so that you don't go back there? Do you have supports in place? We do get defensive of suboxone here. As a moderator, I always feel that it is my role to "balance out" a post like yours. I would feel horrible for a newcomer to see your post and walk away thinking I am not going to try it and continue to use. Please, keep posting so we know how you are doing. I also like to keep a dialog going when people have different opinions and thoughts!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:20 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4127
RS, It is completely inappropriate to come here mocking anyone among the moderator folks who volunteer their time on this forum!

Your problem is YOU. Obviously you are not going to admit to being totally complicit in many of your choices. It seems that you just want to lay blame on anyone or anything else. Nobody here is buying. I responded to your post with respect and just gave you my 2 cents.

You came here with a major chip on your shoulder and you get angry over a little bit of pushback? Are you an adult? Maybe you should try reading through our responses again before you have a knee-jerk response. Does any of it resonate with you at all?

If you go after another person on this forum you will be immediately banned. There are plenty of places that you can bash suboxone to your heart's content. This is not one of them.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:20 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Posts: 2300
Location: Tennessee
Well since the grammar police got me, I guess I should explain! I use 'u' 'ur' 'urself' stuff like that because I always get on this forum with my phone. It has a touchscreen keyboard and it's a lot easier for me to use shortcuts. If u have an issue with that then who really cares. I'm actually just explaining that to the other members here.

As Amy said, u came here with a huge chip on ur shoulder. U knew this was a pro suboxone forum, what response were u looking for? If u come bk with more attitude and insults u will be banned so it's ur choice. Btw 'bk' means 'back' I just shortened it.

_________________
Jennifer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:27 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 9:58 am
Posts: 882
Good morning All, Jenn, no explanation is needed! Those of us who post from their phones know exactly what you are talking about! Funny thing, when I am overdue for a manicure, you can tell because there are commas everywhere! lol I really thought that Rightside's response was more about his anger and less about our spelling and grammar. My past and work have taught me that anger is a much larger problem than a misspelled word or two! Have a wonderful day all!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Intro and Exit
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:22 am 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 1543
One of those annoying threads that probably has educational value...

So, is he still reading and lurking, ready to pounce at the next series of responses to his obnoxious post? We'll see...

Things to learn... people really vary in how much responsibility they take in how their lives unfold. When I was an anesthesiologist, a new surgeon would start at the hospital now and then-- and we could see very quickly whether the new doc was a 'blamer' or an 'accepter'. The first would blame the nurses and techs and gas-passers for everything that happened.... even if the surgeon was the obvious one at fault. Every untied bleeding vessel was the assistant's fault. If the surgery went poorly it was the anesthesiologists fault, or because of the bad lighting or bad equipment. We HATED working with those surgeons. Then there were the ones who always stepped up and took responsibilty, even if someone else made the mistake. If the tech handed the wrong suture, the surgeon said 'my fault, should have been more clear'. Etc... you get the idea. People really liked and respected those surgeons. The difference in personalities comes to mind after reading this thread...

Another thought is in response to the validation of feelings by therapists. Yes-- in early work a therapist may validate feelings by pointing out that they are not 'up for debate'. Hopefully, though, the patient sticks around long enough to learn that having feelings 'doesn't make it so'. You may 'feel' like you were treated a certain way. Yes, you feel that way... but that doesn't mean you WERE treated that way. I'll just leave that for HIM to interpret as he likes.

You'll also see in the post how people will disavow any role in behaviors that they don't want to recognize. This guy actually wrote that 'his doctor didn't even know he was tapering' and then blames the doctor (or Suboxone?) for having extra meds to shred. So patient lies to doctor, misleads doctor, then complains doctor was misled. Classy.

We had a run lately on people wishing everyone well, while at the same time being patronizing or insulting. Must be the crazy weather?

Everyone who has been here more than a few weeks sees the pattern where 'remembered' addiction was very, very mild, never a serious problem... yet for some reason caused the person to seek help. I see that in psychiatry often, where a patient will say "I was doing great until I started psych meds". I'll (gently) point out that nobody schedules an appointment with a psychiatrist if everything was going 'great'-- so the perception must be a bit off. In the same way, did this guy REALLY start buprenorphine because he was taking '6 vicodin' on the worst days? If that IS the case, then he likely has fallen for the email from the State Barrister of Kenya who is trying to give in $12 million because his long-lost uncle died in a car accident there.

The biggest surprise has already been pointed out- that he has been reading here for a long time, yet he still thinks that going from 4 to 8 mg of buprenorphine raised his tolerance! NO!! CEILING EFFECT!

Classy response award must go to Michelle, who made a nice comment followed by an angry rant, then came back with another nice comment! The award goes to you! Wait, no-- it wasn't supposed to be for you, I read the wrong card... sorry....

Note to people in recovery-- being on 'day 17' is not exactly the time to throw a 'good for me' party. It has been pointed out here, many times, that detoxing from buprenorphine is NOT the challenge. The challenge is staying away from our beloved opioids at 2 AM, when we are lonely and resentful and mad at the world.

Someone also noted that the success rate from 'two weeks in rehab' (did he actually write that?!!) is... well, it isn't anything, because there is no such thing. But people who work in treatment settings will say that 90 days in treatment is a starting point. That three months will cost a lot more than what this joker spent on buprenorphine, and the chance of long-term abstinence is below 50% (and maybe far below that number, depending on how measured).

And of course we are all wondering what, exactly, the personal insult was that Amy removed, and who it was directed towards....

Thanks all for keeping it much classier than the post initially deserved. You all have far more patience that I do!

A last comment for 'rightside'.... we know you're still reading. Get a life, and next time around take some responsibility for it!

Was that too harsh?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group