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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Thanks so much for your kind posts. It truly is a family disease and for that I feel sorry for my son who has never touched drugs and probably gets left behind. I try to do as much as possible with him. He just turned 18.
As far as my daughter, she sees a therapist but we are not priveleged to hear or know their conversations. My daughter doesn't like going because she says that she doesn't help. And now I know my daughter isn't being honest with her either because my daughter told her a couple of months ago that she took a friends clonapin and the therapist said that was a relapse and it angered my daughter. Now when she did have a relapse she didn't tell the therapist. I want to bargain with her that she can quit that therapist when she quits the needle and then she can go to group therapy. She wants to do that to save us money.
She also claims that the injections get her through the day, give her energy. I think thats probably because she is getting like three times the Bupe with each injection, going straight to her blood.


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:56 pm 
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I thought that if you dissolve the film in water and inject it, you go into immediate withdrawal because of the Narcan in there


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:17 pm 
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OpenMind wrote:
If your daughter is injecting subs, I think that points to a psychological component to her drug use. I've only known one person that used IV drugs for a sustained period of time. He once tried to describe to me his love of "the ritual". Up and beyond just the rush from the drugs, he actually received some kind of reward from the injecting itself.

I admit, this gets into territory I'm unfamiliar with, but I do think your daughter would benefit from seeing some kind of addiction specialist, not just a regular therapist. I completely understand using drugs for emotional reasons. Besides treating my chronic pain, opiate medications provided me relief from depression and crippling anxiety... for a while that is.

I'd like to applaud you for your loyalty and your intense desire to find answers for your loved one. I know it can seem like a full-time job looking after someone with an overwhelming opiate addiction. I am not a parent myself. I've always wanted to be one. The closest to parenting for me is the love I have for my best friends two teenagers... I have loved them like my own ever since they were born. I would give my life for them and their safety.

I would just like to remind you to take good care of yourself, too. You need that and you deserve that. No, I'm not about to just spout out some advice I have no place giving. But do remember that your life is precious also. Do what you can for your daughter and don't give up. But take some time out for yourself when you can. I really hope that you find the answers you're looking for.



I agree with this statement. A huge part of the continued IV use with suboxone is the ritual behind the method of administration. I have been taking subutex for 8 months this time around and IV daily but the only benefit that i have found is that i am able to keep the amount i take to a minimum. My doctor has me at 8mg but i don't take anywhere near the prescribed amount. When it comes to sub less is definitely more and this is even more so when injecting it. I have been battling heroin/opiate addiction for the last 10 years (i'm 27) and have been unsuccessful being off opiates without subs. Being on subs has completely changed my life. I am back to working on myself and getting my masters. The only difference is that i am able to keep my intake at about 1mg total spaced throughout the day. I feel no buzz. No high. No withdrawal. I feel completely normal and when the time comes to get off of it it won't be as difficult because the half-life is lowered. I am taking micrograms of subtext in each shot so while i don't advocate/recommend shooting them for obvious health reasons i would be more worried about the amounts she is injecting. 2 8mg tablets in a day? That is a lot to take sublingually let alone via injection. In my opinion injecting amounts like that is not only extremely unnecessary but is reflective of her constant need/desire to "feel" something. In other words, her addictive behaviors and desire to get high aren't being addressed by the sub. I won't lie, i like the needle and the ritual, but the only real benefit that i receive from injecting is that the administration of small amounts allows me to keep my daily intake very low. I have no desire to feel a high. 1 8mg lasts me 5-7 days and i was using 1-1.5grams of heroin a day.

This is just my experience and again I do not advocate or recommend that anyone else do this. Hang in there dad. I empathize because i know i put my parents through a similar situation.

Also, much of the information that doctors have is misguided and meant to misinform/deter addicts. You can IV suboxone. Once you're on it naloxone doesn't really do anything.


Last edited by Psiilo65 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:25 pm 
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FrankMatthews wrote:
I thought that if you dissolve the film in water and inject it, you go into immediate withdrawal because of the Narcan in there


No, the only time you will go into immediate withdrawal (this goes for both suboxone and subutex) is if you take either too soon after stopping normal opiates. The injection, or even sublingual administration, immediately replaces whatever is in your receptors and puts you in immediate withdrawal but this is because of the bupe and not narcan. If you're stabilized on suboxone (subtext doesn't have naloxone) the narcan will have a minimal effect. I noticed that when i would IV suboxone it would sometimes give me a horrible headache but I would get those even when i would take it sublingually.


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Why is naloxone in suboxone? I thought it was to prevent people from IVing because if you shoot it the Narcan kicks in.

Why does a 4 MG Narcan nasal spray cost sometimes hundreds of dollars but the 2 mg of Narcan in suboxone cost like what $4..? Counties are stopping buying Narcan because it is so expensive. It's all in the suboxone lol!


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:26 pm 
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Frankmathews,

It is supposed to prevent and deter addicts from IV use but the reality is that if there is a "blocking effect" it is only for a short period of time because it wears off pretty fast and the amount of naloxone in the tablets is nothing compared to taking a straight shot of narcan that they use to reverse an overdose. That would have a blocking effect, but again, it wears off pretty fast. Most people who IV subs do it in pieces which means that even if the naloxone does "block" by dividing the pill they reduce the amount of naloxone that is introduced into the body. Bupe works great even at minute doses and but it isn't the same for naloxone. The only time you should never inject either suboxone or subtext is during the induction process from opiates to subs. The body absorbs some naloxone even when the suboxone is taken sublingually but it doesn't throw you into withdrawal.

and yeah naloxone and Suboxone are expensive as hell. I take subutex and it's a lot cheaper and doesn't give me migraine-like headaches even when i take it as sublingually.

By no means do i think that i am an expert but i have been on and off suboxone/subutex for about 9 years an have realized that a lot of the information that the doctors give is wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Psiilo65 wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
If your daughter is injecting subs, I think that points to a psychological component to her drug use. I've only known one person that used IV drugs for a sustained period of time. He once tried to describe to me his love of "the ritual". Up and beyond just the rush from the drugs, he actually received some kind of reward from the injecting itself.

I admit, this gets into territory I'm unfamiliar with, but I do think your daughter would benefit from seeing some kind of addiction specialist, not just a regular therapist. I completely understand using drugs for emotional reasons. Besides treating my chronic pain, opiate medications provided me relief from depression and crippling anxiety... for a while that is.

I'd like to applaud you for your loyalty and your intense desire to find answers for your loved one. I know it can seem like a full-time job looking after someone with an overwhelming opiate addiction. I am not a parent myself. I've always wanted to be one. The closest to parenting for me is the love I have for my best friends two teenagers... I have loved them like my own ever since they were born. I would give my life for them and their safety.

I would just like to remind you to take good care of yourself, too. You need that and you deserve that. No, I'm not about to just spout out some advice I have no place giving. But do remember that your life is precious also. Do what you can for your daughter and don't give up. But take some time out for yourself when you can. I really hope that you find the answers you're looking for.



I agree with this statement. A huge part of the continued IV use with suboxone is the ritual behind the method of administration. I have been taking subutex for 8 months this time around and IV daily but the only benefit that i have found is that i am able to keep the amount i take to a minimum. My doctor has me at 8mg but i don't take anywhere near the prescribed amount. When it comes to sub less is definitely more and this is even more so when injecting it. I have been battling heroin/opiate addiction for the last 10 years (i'm 27) and have been unsuccessful being off opiates without subs. Being on subs has completely changed my life. I am back to working on myself and getting my masters. The only difference is that i am able to keep my intake at about 1mg total spaced throughout the day. I feel no buzz. No high. No withdrawal. I feel completely normal and when the time comes to get off of it it won't be as difficult because the half-life is lowered. I am taking micrograms of subtext in each shot so while i don't advocate/recommend shooting them for obvious health reasons i would be more worried about the amounts she is injecting. 2 8mg tablets in a day? That is a lot to take sublingually let alone via injection. In my opinion injecting amounts like that is not only extremely unnecessary but is reflective of her constant need/desire to "feel" something. In other words, her addictive behaviors and desire to get high aren't being addressed by the sub. I won't lie, i like the needle and the ritual, but the only real benefit that i receive from injecting is that the administration of small amounts allows me to keep my daily intake very low. I have no desire to feel a high. 1 8mg lasts me 5-7 days and i was using 1-1.5grams of heroin a day.

This is just my experience and again I do not advocate or recommend that anyone else do this. Hang in there dad. I empathize because i know i put my parents through a similar situation.

Also, much of the information that doctors have is misguided and meant to misinform/deter addicts. You can IV suboxone. Once you're on it naloxone doesn't really do anything.


I think you're kidding yourself if you think you are somehow benefiting from the lower amount of medication you are shooting. Every time you shoot you are making excuses for your behavior. IVing subutex is addict behavior pure and simple. You are addicted to that needle.

When you take the medication sublingually like you are supposed to the bioavailability is 1/10 of what it would be when you IV. So you are using less medication for the same effect, that's true. But what you are doing is detrimental to your recovery at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in harm reduction and you have improved your life in many ways. It's wonderful that you are working on bettering yourself and earning your masters. It's great that you are stable and are not getting high from IVing your medication. Let's be honest about why you are still using the needle though. You didn't start using the needle for subutex in order to keep your doses small. That is a fringe benefit. You are addicted to the ritual.

I don't want anyone who reads what you've written to believe that there is a benefit to shooting their meds. All the members here know that IVing is a holdover from active addiction. I don't care how much of a financial benefit an addict could get from pushing a smaller dose into their vein. They could also be able to use less from dosing in their anus (plugging). For most of us, the idea of plugging is repugnant. Well, so is dosing with a needle. It's ugly and dangerous and a sign that you are not truly in recovery.

I know that what I'm saying may sound harsh, but it's very important that no one gets the idea that IVing your meds is OK. It's not.

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:51 pm 
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I agree with both replies. I did not claim to excuse my IV use for any other reason other than that I have a needle fetish and love the ritual and the only benefit that I have found is te low dosage. I said as much in my first post. I didn't start IVing. I started sublingual but for me it is more about harm reduction than anything else. At this point as long as I'm away from drugs and opiates of any kind im doing good regardless of whether or not I have overcome all of my addictive behaviors.

The reason I wrote that was because if the daughter is going to insist on IVing her drugs and the father in unsuccessful in stopping her then shouldnt there be a focus on harm Reduction? I realize it must be difficult for a parent.


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:08 pm 
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jennjenn wrote:
Hepatitis C alone is reason to not shoot anything. I'm not sure if u realize that u can give urself hep c. One tiny speck of blood left in a needle will put u at risk. Let's get real here, there's absolutely no way a person can use a brand new needle every single time. If u go bk for seconds left after ur first shot, that's a risk and I doubt anyone has access to that many new needles every time.... U will eventually find urself re-using one. U can have hep c for years and never know, u could already have it.


This isn't exactly 100% true. A lot of people re-use their OWN old needles, and the process, while not ideal as it can lead to other forms of bacterial infection, will NOT give a person Hep-C. Hep C is only transmitted by being exposed to the blood of a person who has an active Hep-C infection - ie another person's blood. It's a myth that a person's own non-infected blood can magically be infected with Hep-C by being exposed to the air.

One of the best ways to prevent infection with blood-borne diseases is to inject alone. The flip side of doing this is the best way to die from an overdose is to inject alone. What a shitty choice to have to make!

Also injecting Subby? It's plain stupid. The cost / benefit in doing so is DEFINITELY out of whack. Sure you might save some $, but it comes at the cost of things like collapsed veins, endocarditis, kidney damage as your kidneys have to work in overdrive to filter out all the orange gunk from the bloodstream. Not just that you are adding to the track marks on your body every time, which takes a big psychological toll whether you acknowledge it or not. I had an old using acquaintance who is now on dialysis in his mid-30's because he was injecting his Sub tablets and films throughout his mid-late 20's for this reason. You can understand why doctors may be apprehensive to get him a kidney transplant over the poor little old lady who's done everything right in life.

The good thing about moving on from the needle is nowadays I look at the old marks and they're faded and silver, like a remnant from an old life. I wouldn't go back to that if I was paid a million dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Psiilo65 wrote:
I agree with both replies. I did not claim to excuse my IV use for any other reason other than that I have a needle fetish and love the ritual and the only benefit that I have found is te low dosage. I said as much in my first post. I didn't start IVing. I started sublingual but for me it is more about harm reduction than anything else. At this point as long as I'm away from drugs and opiates of any kind im doing good regardless of whether or not I have overcome all of my addictive behaviors.

The reason I wrote that was because if the daughter is going to insist on IVing her drugs and the father in unsuccessful in stopping her then shouldnt there be a focus on harm Reduction? I realize it must be difficult for a parent.


What you said here is all I wanted to make sure you had a handle on. I was pretty rough on you. I didn't know if you recognized the needle use as continued addict behavior or not. Now that I know I want to congratulate you for getting to this point! As I said above, I am a big believer in harm reduction and you a have used those principles to create the best recovery you are able to right now.

I just hope for you that you can overcome the relationship with the needle. Thanks for commenting.

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:53 am 
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Psiil I do understand, I've been addicted to that process myself and thankfully I started getting sick whenever I'd inject anything. At the end of my needle use, I got sick every time, it was so weird. It was cotton fever type symptoms. It was easier to stop when it was putting me in violent freezing shakes for 1-2 hours at a time. If that hadn't happened, who knows how I'd have gotten away from it. So I do understand that process, I'd say a lot of ppl do. I do hope u can transition from that though, u understand how it's just not healthy for ya. But I won't say anything else about it I promise :)

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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:45 pm 
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Psiilo65 - I hope you can tell that nobody is trying to put you on blast. We have all had our lives permanently affected by our addictions and everything that goes along with it. You'll find some of the most caring and understanding individuals here that truly care about your sobriety and overall wellness.

We also don't sugarcoat our opinions because that can actually enable certain people and their bad habits... and that's what you have, a bad habit. Injecting your medicine is a behavior from your days in active addiction. Those days are behind you and I encourage you to seek any kind of treatment or therapy that will help you give up shooting your bupe. You don't need it, in my opinion, and you're putting your future health at risk.

Please take this advice in the spirit it's being given. This is genuine concern for your welfare, including your psychological well-being. Fortunately I never got started using needles. It was a line I didn't want to cross. I came close a couple of times but I was too afraid of what it might do to my veins or my heart or whatever. There's so many things that can and do go wrong when IVing and I've seen cotton fever before... that scared me to death. Please, just be very careful and learn to respect your body again. It's the only one you're ever going to get.

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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:10 pm 
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OpenMind wrote:
Psiilo65 - I hope you can tell that nobody is trying to put you on blast. We have all had our lives permanently affected by our addictions and everything that goes along with it. You'll find some of the most caring and understanding individuals here that truly care about your sobriety and overall wellness.

We also don't sugarcoat our opinions because that can actually enable certain people and their bad habits... and that's what you have, a bad habit. Injecting your medicine is a behavior from your days in active addiction. Those days are behind you and I encourage you to seek any kind of treatment or therapy that will help you give up shooting your bupe. You don't need it, in my opinion, and you're putting your future health at risk.

Please take this advice in the spirit it's being given. This is genuine concern for your welfare, including your psychological well-being. Fortunately I never got started using needles. It was a line I didn't want to cross. I came close a couple of times but I was too afraid of what it might do to my veins or my heart or whatever. There's so many things that can and do go wrong when IVing and I've seen cotton fever before... that scared me to death. Please, just be very careful and learn to respect your body again. It's the only one you're ever going to get.


I appreciate the sentiment and support from all of you. I know everyone means well and I didn't feel like i was being put on blast. I am aware of the harm that i am putting my body through (collapsed veins, track marks, etc.) and I think about stopping all the time but I honestly haven't made any real effort to switch back to sublingual administration. I recently started going to group therapy meetings at Kaiser actually. Up until this point i had been pretty much alone in my recovery process.


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Psiilo65 wrote:
Up until this point i had been pretty much alone in my recovery process.


That's got to be one of the hardest things to cope with. That's why I think this website is so valuable. We have the ability to come here in our brokenness and we can do so safely and anonymously. Sometimes you need another person to tell you straight up what you've already been thinking to yourself for a long time. Or maybe you just need someone to listen.

Hey, whatever you need... I'm here as often as I can be. If you need to talk with a little more privacy just shoot me a private message and I'll get back to you right away. I take time to check the site everyday so just reach out if you need some help. We have to help each other. I don't have many friends that can help me so I come here for support along with SMART Recovery meetings and it helps. It really helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:21 am 
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Ultimately everyone wants you to do well (many truly care) and...wants you to want to do well and truly care.

Much easier said than done of course but do not give up, keep working on putting yourself in the best position to avoid problems that decisions you make today can prevent (try to control what you can control).

(thumbs up emoji)

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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:29 am 
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I just had to try it and see what it was about, injecting sub that is.

Soooooo...i didn't notice anything at all. Like zero. I tried multiple times with multiple doses and nothing happened. Not a buzz or any change in mood or feeling. IV sub is ret*rded I'll stick to sub-lingual


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:05 pm 
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FrankMatthews wrote:
I just had to try it and see what it was about, injecting sub that is.

Soooooo...i didn't notice anything at all. Like zero. I tried multiple times with multiple doses and nothing happened. Not a buzz or any change in mood or feeling. IV sub is ret*rded I'll stick to sub-lingual


It isn't that people get a buzz or anything special from doing it, it's being addicted to the needle ...
Same as being addicted to pills or heroin...there's an addiction that goes along with the actual injecting of a drug, the needle piercing the skin...the activity itself is the addictive tendency.
I wouldn't call anything associated with addiction "ret*rded"...
That's kind abusive.

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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:57 pm 
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I completely understand the needle ritual. I used to just inject water and aspirate a hundred times to see the blood during my last few periods of sobriety. I was obsessed with needles. Now being on sub I could care less, even being an IV coke/meth user


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:00 pm 
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And being in addiction everything is abusive...reusing the same blunt needle 50 times and just jabbing it in the abscessed vein is abusive, addicts abuse everyone around them verbally, financially, emotionally, sometimes sexually. Abuse is part of addiction, my comment was directed at me being stupid playing around with needles again. I understand there's an underlying deep psychological background to it, but I wasn't going there...


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 Post subject: Re: Injecting suboxone
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:19 pm 
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I'm in agreement with FM. I too injected water just to have the ritual to go through, but back then I was only 15 years old and today we're talking to an adult. We also had stainless steel needles available so we could boil them and reuse the needles time and time again. Luckily, I didn't get any diseases but I did abscess really bad that my left arm was swollen twice its size. (just missed the vein and injected a barbiturate into my arm)

There is only one way I know to stop an addictive behavior. You need to just stop! Yes, that sounds simple but it isn't. Everyone of us had to make a decision to get onto Suboxone or quit drinking, smoking, etc. We addicts know how to quit things. We also know procrastination works very well to not deal with the elephant in the room.

Just do it. Stop the injecting and go back to subliminal dosing. Simple as that.

"I knew that one day I'd have to stop _____, but I didn't want it to be today" Fill in the blank as needed.

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