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 Post subject: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:30 pm 
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I just joined the forum. May I ask a question and if it has been asked please be patient with me.
I started induction today by taking 2 mg. every house. After 3 I still did not feel correct.
I went and got H and used. I felt nothing at all. I later went to a meeting where I shared my shame and disgust and go a lot of support.
My question is, tomorrow, do I have to wait until I am in moderate WD to start to induct again, or due to the fact that the Naloxone probably blocked the H, should I just continue to take the subs without fear of PW.

Thanks so much.

juniorsdad3


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Hi dad,

I'd say The reason the H didn't work was you'd created an opiate block with the bupe. naloxone does't enter into it. The block means the H was not able to occupy your opiate receptors. They were taken up by the buprenorphine. That's what it's supposed to do. That's my best guess

My 2nd best guess is you do not have to wait to take your prescribed dose tomorrow. but it's only a guess. Wait til someone comes along who's certain.

Don't beat yourself up. We're addicts. We do dumb crap sometimes. God knows I do.

Welcome to the forum. Never worry about asking repeat questions. They've all been asked a thousand times before, and they all get answered courteously and for the most part, promptly.

We all learn from every question.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Hi juniorsdad-I just wanted to say hello and welcome. I'd like to add that you are doing the right thing-choosing sobriety. Hiccups happen. So after you took 6mg( 2mg every hour), were you still in withdrawal ?? You probably just needed to hang in there for a little while longer and take more-my guess anyway. I agree with godfrey, that you should be ok to continue but I would wait for some more answers from people here. They will come along.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Godfrey nailed it--- the naloxone is irrelevant, as only a small fraction of the naloxone is absorbed sublingually, and that small fraction, or even a large IV dose, would be gone in about 30 minutes. All of the actions of Suboxone are caused by buprenorphine.

And yes, you didn't get high because the buprenorphine is bound to your opioid receptors, blocking them and also activating them to some degree. That 'degree' of activation maxes out a certain level; an amount of opioid effect that is equal to the the tolerance of someone taking 40 mg of methadone per day. That degree of opioid effect is lower than the tolerance of most heroin users. So when most people start buprenorphine, they get an effect that is less than what they get from using-- which is why they don't usually feel completely 'normal' the first day.

Buprenorphine essentially pulls your tolerance to a level of opioid activation that is lower than it was on heroin. The good news is that when you take buprenorphine, your tolerance adjusts to that degree of opioid stimulation very quickly, usually within a day or two. So if someone is using a very large amount of heroin, and has a tolerance equal, for example, to someone taking 100 mg of methadone per day, that person's tolerance adjusts very quickly in response to buprenorphine, quickly dropping to a lower level.

You can simply take your dose of Suboxone or buprenorphine tomorrow, and you will feel fine. The only exception would be if you used tons and tons of heroin or oxycodone. If you do that, then I recommend you wait a good 12 hours to get the agonist out of your system, in case some of it is bound to your opioid receptors. Usually buprenorphine out-competes agonists, unless very high doses are used... but sometimes people who are on buprenophine, but go back and forth from bupe to heroin to bupe, will feel sick after restarting buprenorphine. Again-- that is unlikely given what you described, but it is a good reason to avoid using agonists any more going forward.

your next challenge is dealing with life, without being messed up. That can be difficult, but remember that all you need to do is tolerate life. You don't need to change everything on day one!

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:44 am 
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Suboxdoc

I am so grateful to all of you for your responses. :D
I feel enlightened and encouraged. I will be back to report progress, which is not great at this time but I am going to go the course. I am tired.

"It's not always tears that measure the pain.
Sometimes it's the smile we fake to cover it."


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:50 am 
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Hey juniorsdad3, I'm glad u responded. U said ur progress isn't great and ur tired. I understand, I think we all do.

Buprenorphine has changed my life so much and gave me a chance to fix a lot of things. I'm constantly trying to remember those times in active addiction to stay grateful for my life today. Yesterday I was cleaning out a big wood shelf my dad had built us and there's two doors at the bottom that I hadn't touched or opened in years and years. So I started cleaning it out. I found this letter that said..... Mom and Dad.... in my handwriting. I opened it and it was a letter I'd wrote to them when I was shooting morphine all the time.

I wanted help to stop but I couldn't and I was literally begging them to show me some way out. I was begging them to tell me how I could have more faith so that my prayers would be answered. My writing would go really messy from where I was crying as I wrote it. I can vaguely remember writing that letter. I must have never gave it to my parents and just stuck it in that door where it stayed til yesterday. I kept it, to remind me how bad it can be out there. Sometimes I tend to get caught up in superficial stuff not realizing how lucky I am today. I needed that reminder.

I guess I'm telling u this story because I was so tired when I wrote that letter and I had no idea suboxone could help me like it has, I believed nothing was ever going to get better and I'd be stuck in active addiction until I died. I was wrong and once I gave it a 100%, things changed for the better. I'm not trying to preach about anything lol I just got a real awakening finding that letter and knowing help was out there and I didn't know.... I could have saved myself so much loss if I'd gotten help at the time I wrote that letter.

Good luck juniors dad! U deserve the absolute best life and I know u can do this! If u need any advice, support or anything just let us know :)

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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:07 pm 
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jennjenn, Thank you. Great post bc speaks to all our hearts on how desperately tiring and emotionally ripping active addiction is for folks. It rips to the core.

Juniorsdad, Cheering you on to start bup. A wonder drug for most of us here. A great life awaits you once you get started. As you stay on it - this allows all the good life changes to occur. Sure did for me. When can you try it again? this weekend? Hope so. Really want this for you. Once you start, be sure to keep taking bup. Consider a higher starting dose and get to 8 mg on induction day. Plus allow more time for your tolerance to lower. Read and re read the posts here to you, esp Dr J's post. He's the Dr that owns this site and is an experienced addictionologist. Looking forward to welcoming you to your new life on bup. There's tons of understanding and support for you here, Welcome and wishing you my best, P

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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Hey Jrsdad
Did you start back on subs? How are you feeling?

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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:52 pm 
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Sis Morphine and Jenn,

I am starting again tomorrow. I am resolved to listen to the people on this site and not others. I was leaning toward the people who said induct at the lowest possible dose, but that never made me feel quite good. My idea was to tape quickly and get it over with. I see that is not the best way so I will definitely follow what I am reading here. You guys seem to have what I am lacking. Peace of mind.
Can you believe I am an addiction counselor? I feel like such a hypocrite. I used to go to work, around co workers and clients who were addicts, secretly hoping that someone would notice and call me on it.
And because they did not, I was angry and bitter and felt angry at them.
I guess the reality is that I am responsible for my addiction, not others.
I am resolve to go again tomorrow and give it my best. I was afraid of PW and that made me keep hesitating. I did my last IV of H, very weak quality, at about 1:00pm today. I think by tomorrow at 1:00pm it will be 24 hours so I am going to give it my best. I will post and I sincerely thank you for these kind words. I did not want to write at first because I did not want to let you down that I failed, but I have to start being real and it has to start being here.
Thanks....


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:51 pm 
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You are being very brave and I am proud of you for starting to take responsibility for your addiction. I think that we are not at fault, for the most part, for becoming addicted. But the fact is that we will never be able to manage our addiction without taking responsibility and doing what we can to prevent relapse.

Your story is not pretty, but it is real! When you are willing to be vulnerable to us, it helps the other members on the forum and yourself.

Let us know what you may need in terms of support. We will be here for you!

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:40 am 
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Juniorsdad u didn't disappoint me, heck I know how it is. But ur right about us having peace of mind. That's one of the most valuable effects of suboxone. I wake up in the morning not thinking of pills at all. I'm not worried to death about my next fix or being sick. That is peace and I remember what it was like without peace for yrs and yrs, it's no way to live my friend.

Suboxone can give u ur life bk. U just have to take enough to cover ur cravings. I hope u have or plan on having a doctor, because worrying about ur next dose of suboxone isn't going to help ur peace of mind very much. What if the person u get it from runs out? Do u really wanna deal with that bs? Ur too good to worry urself to death.

Good luck! And remember, u won't disappoint us. Taking accountability is a breath of fresh air.

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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Hi Jenn and Amy,
Having trouble keeping up with replies. I get emails saying there is a reply but I think I figured out where to look for them.
2nd day not as bad as I thought. I feel pretty decent, somewhat stable on 6mg.
My desire is to taper fairly rapidly so as to not get addicted to the subs. I am sure you have heard it before. I figure a month following one of the tapers I see posted.
To be truthful I have 7- 8mg. pills and 3- 8mg films. I have benzos, clonodine and gabapentin.
I am hoping I can accomplish this with what I have.
God bless and thanks for support


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:41 pm 
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juniorsdad3 wrote:
Sis Morphine and Jenn,

I am starting again tomorrow. I am resolved to listen to the people on this site and not others. I was leaning toward the people who said induct at the lowest possible dose, but that never made me feel quite good. My idea was to tape quickly and get it over with. I see that is not the best way so I will definitely follow what I am reading here. You guys seem to have what I am lacking. Peace of mind.
Can you believe I am an addiction counselor? I feel like such a hypocrite. I used to go to work, around co workers and clients who were addicts, secretly hoping that someone would notice and call me on it.
And because they did not, I was angry and bitter and felt angry at them.
I guess the reality is that I am responsible for my addiction, not others.
I am resolve to go again tomorrow and give it my best. I was afraid of PW and that made me keep hesitating. I did my last IV of H, very weak quality, at about 1:00pm today. I think by tomorrow at 1:00pm it will be 24 hours so I am going to give it my best. I will post and I sincerely thank you for these kind words. I did not want to write at first because I did not want to let you down that I failed, but I have to start being real and it has to start being here.
Thanks....

i'm not a counselor (but my therapist said i'd make a good peer counselor) but at my worst addiction after relapsing after 5 years clean, i was still helping a friend get clean. he said i was the strongest person he knew. i felt SO guilty because he wasn't aware I had relapsed. BUT i had been through it before. i could still help. just because you're having problems doesn't mean you can't help others. you learn from your mistakes and move on.

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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:16 am 
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Sis Morphine
Thanks so much for that.
My issue now is trying to taper sensible without actually getting addicted to the sub and having to go at it again. Is there a time frame should stay within where I would be in the safety zone?


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:23 am 
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Sister Morphine
A great book called the Wounded Healer by Professor Henri Nowen talks about just that. People who have been 'wounded' heal better themselves as they assist others in the process of healing. We definitely know this as addicts.
I was a counselor/supervisor in a very well known drug agency. I felt like such a hypocrite giving others advice. The advice was good but I was not living it myself. How I inwardly was angry at all the processional and ex addicts I worked with. No one knew, or saw my pain. How I wished for a life line. Never got it. As I mentioned I was responsible for my own addiction, they were not.
Instead of secretly laughing and thinking I was slick, I was disgusted at myself and them for not knowing. Pretty twisted. I am out of the field now, working with a different population so I can heal better.
I know what I have to do. I am scared of the affects of WD. Not pleasant. I need to just get a plan. I have 4 8mg strips and 7 8 mg pills of subs. No insurance after that. Need to do it so it counts. Got a few benzos and gabapentins and clonidines.
Would like your prayers and any advice anyone can give.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:48 am 
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juniorsdad3 wrote:
Sister Morphine
A great book called the Wounded Healer by Professor Henri Nowen talks about just that. People who have been 'wounded' heal better themselves as they assist others in the process of healing. We definitely know this as addicts.
I was a counselor/supervisor in a very well known drug agency. I felt like such a hypocrite giving others advice. The advice was good but I was not living it myself. How I inwardly was angry at all the processional and ex addicts I worked with. No one knew, or saw my pain. How I wished for a life line. Never got it. As I mentioned I was responsible for my own addiction, they were not.
Instead of secretly laughing and thinking I was slick, I was disgusted at myself and them for not knowing. Pretty twisted. I am out of the field now, working with a different population so I can heal better.
I know what I have to do. I am scared of the affects of WD. Not pleasant. I need to just get a plan. I have 4 8mg strips and 7 8 mg pills of subs. No insurance after that. Need to do it so it counts. Got a few benzos and gabapentins and clonidines.
Would like your prayers and any advice anyone can give.

Is the book really religious? I added it to my wishlist to look at later.
I don't know that i'd want an addiction therapist that only studied addiction. How could you really take their advice seriously if they haven't been through it? My therapist has addiction in her family which is why she ended up in the field.
I think you are fine after waiting 24 hours. The clinic I go to doesn't do any kind of waiting before induction. Dr. didn't even ask me when the last time was I used. I took 4mg only the 1st day and I was fine, after using 12 hours prior.
Is your username nascar related?

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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:32 am 
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Hi Sis. M.
No no relation to nascar for my name. My sons name is junior so I am juniorsdad. Kept it simple.
You serious? 4 mg. of sub after 12 hours and no pw? That is awesome and and I see everyone is different. Thank you for your valuable info and for all you and the dedicated people on this site do.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:00 am 
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Quote:
My issue now is trying to taper sensible without actually getting addicted to the sub and having to go at it again


Hey JDad,

So I've not checked in for a while on your thread, and I might have missed something. Sounds like you're doing quite well. But I'm going to cautiously venture the opinion that you're already addicted...dependent might be a better word...to the buprenorphine.

Your addiction.to opiates doesn't just disappear forever in some black hole. You've transferred your addictionto the subs, which are now keeping you safe and sound from the terrible cravings that would undoubtedly drive you back to full on opiates....

This is my highly uninformed opinion on the matter, so don't put all that much stock into it. Others will likely chime in. This is not to say you can't taper off of course. it should def.be easier...but far from easy....than tapering off your DOC.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:46 am 
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Hey JD3,

There's not much I can add that Godfrey didn't already say. I know what you meant by saying not wanting to get addicted to the Subs, but we here view Suboxone as a tool. Yea, dependent on it is a better word. But don't sweat it, we aren't busting your chops!

What has surprised me is the small percentage of addicts who's drug of choice was Suboxone only. It being the first one they experienced. Then yes, I guess you could say they'd get addicted to it, but only up to a point until they hit the ceiling effect. Those are the hardest members to talk sense to and we've only had one or two in the last few years.

But please do yourself a favor and read Dr. Junig's blogs about relapsing rates. It is really scary how many addicts end up back on full opiates later on after quitting Suboxone. Give yourself permission to go back on again just in case you're not mentally ready to be off it yet. Just a suggestion. My hope is you'll succeed in your quest to be off it and never again abuse opiates. Numbers don't lie though so it is worth a look at.

Good luck on your venture,

rule

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 Post subject: Re: Induction-Relapse
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:08 am 
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juniorsdad3 wrote:
Hi Sis. M.
No no relation to nascar for my name. My sons name is junior so I am juniorsdad. Kept it simple.
You serious? 4 mg. of sub after 12 hours and no pw? That is awesome and and I see everyone is different. Thank you for your valuable info and for all you and the dedicated people on this site do.

yep, no wds. BUT i didn't know wds were a possibility. so if i had been anticipating them maybe I would have felt them?
as far as the name i was thinking you were an earnhart dr. fan! you know, dale jrs dad's # is 3.

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