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 Post subject: Induction issues
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Hello all
I have lurked on this site for several years. I'm a male in his 40s with 3 children
Brief history, a car accident led me to being prescribed pain pills (hydrocodone then oxy codon)
I eventually began to abuse and buy more through "friends"
I own a successful business, so money has not been an issue.
2 years ago, having had enough, someone gave me some sub strips, and I was able to successfully get clean. I felt great from the first day after waiting about 18 hours. I stayed on and tapered down from a max 2mg Sub dose over only a couple months--I was only just getting started. I eventually started buying oxy pills again and eventually started snorting the 30s. My dose has stayed between 100-120 mg/day. Over the last year or so
This past couple weeks, I've decided to get clean and stay that way. I intend to go to meetings and do whatever I need to stay off opiates. I do know that I have a problem and I want to get off and stay off.
I bought several Suboxone strips and several Subutex tabs in order to induct at the lowest possible dose.
My withdrawals come quick and hard, stuffy nose, yawns, goosebumps, anxiety, and major rls--usually after about 6-8 hours.
I was able to hold out until about 13 hours and scored an 19 on cows.
I took a .25 piece of strip and waited 45 minutes and took a .50 piece. So far so good. Waited another hour and took another .50 for a total of 1.25 mg. I soon felt like a new person and as able to soon eat and spend a nice afternoon outside with family.
As the evening wore on (8 hrs later), my legs started to ache and I started to feel some symptoms of withdrawal creep in, so I took another .5 piece of sub. 10 minutes later I started to sweat and get major anxiety. I took a hot bath and was able to finally relax enough to go lay on the bed and drift off to sleep.
I soon woke up at 2 am with anxiety and chills. Figuring I may not have dosed enough, I took another .5 mg and ended up with more chills, sweating, and major anxiety. I was finally able to fall back asleep for a couple hours and woke up this morning tired but ok. Taking nothing this morning, I have gradually started to feel worse until at 2pm, I took another .5 piece. Again within 10 min, sweating and anxiety.
What am I doing wrong? Why are small pieces making me feel immediately worse? I know my initial induction went well. I felt great for 6-8 hours. Now sub is giving me the opposite effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Hey Lifelessons welcome to the forum! Glad u finally posted.

I can't say that I know why ur having this anxiety and sweating after u dose small doses but if I was guessing, u aren't taking enough buprenorphine. If ur tolerance to oxycodone is 100-120 mg, then tiny doses isn't enough. At the time of my induction, I was using around 150mg of oxycodone 30's a day. My dose of suboxone started out at 16mg and it covered me 100%. Now I'm not suggesting u have to go to 16mg (although it would definitely make u feel better) but u need to be over the ceiling level. Right now, no dose u have taken is over the ceiling level.

Also buprenorphine in smaller doses under the ceiling level, will wear off quicker just like a full opiate will. So it won't last til the next day like it would if u were over the ceiling level. With ur tolerance (if it's 100-120mg a day) small doses like u have been taking, may not keep u out of withdrawal. The ceiling level is supposedly 4 mg, so ur well under it right now. When u go bk to dose at .5 ur still in withdrawal afterwards because ur not taking enough. That's just what I'm thinking it could be.

U don't have a doctor to prescribe u buprenorphine right? Maybe u should think about getting into suboxone treatment. Without a prescription, I'm sure ur trying to take the bare minimum, but for a tolerance that's on the higher side, u may need more.

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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Thank you so much for your reply. My availability to more Suboxone is not an issue at all. I am willing to do this the right way, but where I live it is extremely difficult to find a Suboxone program. The issue is the dose of Suboxone I do take almost seems to make it worse within 10 minutes. It's almost as if it's precipitated withdrawal. I break out in chills and sweats and feel an overwhelming sense of anxiety. I never experienced this when I was on Suboxone before
But I didn't get any of that when I first inducted yesterday. I felt great after I took the initial doses.
I guess I'll try taking a larger dose and risk going into for precipitated withdrawal. That would not make any sense seeing as it's already been almost 48 hours since my last dose of oxycodone. Maybe I'll take the plunge and see


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Hey LL,

Jenn seems to have nailed it. Though I don't see why you'd get so much worse after taking more..even if it is too little. You clearly seem to be drifting back into WD with these too small doses.

But OTOH it does sound like PW, which happens when you've got too much full on agonist hanging around in your opiate receptors. The sudden take over of those receptors by the bupe which has a greater affinity for them, puts a person into sudden, more severe WD.

You said you scored a 19 on the COWS? THat's square in the moderate range which should be OK. And you were OK for a while right?

I don't get it, which isn't surprising as I'm not a doctor, or even very bright when it comes to these kinds of issues.

I wouldn't normally suggest this, but maybe you could send a PM directly to Dr. Junig who runs the site.. You don't have a doctor of your own? YOu're in a bit of a tight spot. He'll likely spot this thread anyway, but it might take a few days. Whatever it is I bet he has an answer for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:54 pm 
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I'm wondering if I was having a bad reaction to Suboxone. I have since upped my dose about an hour ago to 1mg and used Subutex instead. This time I didn't have the hot flashes and anxiety--just the still aching pain in legs.
I'm no doctor either, but I have spent hours scouring these forums over the years while gathering the courage to do the right thing. I have leared there is no free ticket to get off this roller coaster. I'm so greatfull to have been able to read the different stories of all these tortured but brave survivors of opiate dependency. In my case it has been completely 100% self inflicted. I don't know why I'm drawn to this charade of failure. The crazy and insane thing about it is I know it will take every bit of my will power to not repeat my past actions--even after the 48 hours of hell I've just been through.
Sorry for my rant, but a violent thunderstorm is passing through here right now and it seems to echo my thoughts


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:06 pm 
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Quote:
I don't know why I'm drawn to this charade of failure.


Because my friend, you're a drug addict. Self destructive behavior is our stock-in-trade.
Don't regret the past, or at least try not to too much. You've taken the brave first steps

I also had a difficult time switching to bupe. Some 3 days of hellish WD symptoms, including
some PW. But it's over now. Seems like it never happened. I've been what I consider clean and sober
since last November. I don't even remember what cravings feel like anymore.

Welcome to your new life. And welcome to the forum where you can ask for help, and help
others too, often at the very same time!


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:57 pm 
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That's a trip you didn't have the anxiety and sweating after taking the Subutex. It's a pill form right? Have you ever taken the Suboxone strips before? I remember reading something else about you being on Suboxone before. Very brave of you to decide to get off the pills and clean up your act. It needs to be done before something really bad happens. I just hope you can transition to Suboxone without having these problems. It would be so helpful if you could find a Dr, but I'm sure your aware of that. Anyway I wanted to welcome you to the forum. Hope you stick around and your transition to Suboxone gets easer. Sincerely Bama girl


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Welcome Life lessons,

Bc of the device I'm on. I can't search well nor provide links/copy Dr Js induction info.

So this is imo: Agree w jennjenn and Godfrey, you're not taking enough. You're not having a bad reaction to suboxone vs generic plain buprenorphine aka subutex. The generic plain buprenorphine worked, bc at 1mg, you finally took a larger dose. Your prior doses were only chip dosing = 2.75mgs over 48 hrs. Dr J wrote where he gives 4mgs and then another 4mg. Day 1 total = 8 mg. Most Dr's give 8-16mg first day. There's a reason they prescribe therapuetic doses = it's necessary! If you stay too low and do subpar dosing, you'll be in misery as you WD from your high oxy tolerance. Up to you. Search around here and search the suboxone website induction section unless you're feeling too crappy.

Hopefully you're not thinking of subpar dosing w a rapid taper? Or are you?
Wishing you my best, P

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Thanks to all who took time to answer. I ended up taking a total of 3 mgs yesterday and am stable on that dose. Your kindness means so much to others when they are at their dark and desperate moments. Yesterday I was sooooo close to giving up and going out to buy more drugs. Jenn Jenn and Godfreys compassion to me meant the world. Just a little bit of support went so far and gave me the hope and courage to push through. I thought the Suboxone was making me sicker and was scared to take more when more was what I needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:45 am 
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Lifelessons I'm so glad u feel better!

I can totally understand being close to just giving up when u thought that buprenorphine wasn't going to work with u. I was actually talking about that the other day. When I first started this treatment, I was on rock bottom and didn't have any hope that anything was going to work for me. Luckily it worked immediately and when I woke up that next morning after my first dose the day before, I had zero cravings..... and I hadn't even dosed that day yet. I think that's one of the first times I had hope that I may have a chance after all. So if I would have had trouble, I think that I would have been in the state of mind to easily think this medicine may not help me. So glad it didn't happen that way and I can understand how someone else can think that way. So glad u came here and asked ur questions! I didn't find this forum until I had been on suboxone for a year or so, it would have helped me so much in the beginning.

The main thing for me was cravings. I needed help to stop obsessing about them and thankfully this medication stopped my cravings. I had been ready to stop using for years, I just couldn't stop my mind from racing and obsessing 24/7. So make sure ur dose covers ur cravings too :)

Again, so glad u feel better and I hope u stick around this forum and become a regular poster. Good luck!!

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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Hey Lifelessons,

Thank you for your update. Appreciate it. Admire you for your courage to start bup. When i was in your shoes, I doubt I would have the strength to get on bup. As you well know, opiate's grip is so incredibly powerful - above and beyond ANY understanding. It took the major loss of my marriage to get me to recognize that opiates were NOT my friend and I needed to divorce them. I hope you are at a dose above your cravings. hope you are dong better and also hope you will let us know how you are doing. Much respect to you for starting bup and getting your life back on track. Best always, P

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:43 pm 
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part of what you're not getting by going to a dr. or MAT (Medication Assisted Treatment) is the required therapy. You have the medication part now and i'm glad you are stable at the 3mg. taking little .5s wasn't enough plus taking them multiple times though the day is not breaking your habit of using.
i am required to go to one NA meeting or therapy session a month. i go to therapy once a week! in therapy you will gain the tools you need to prevent a relapse, discover why you use and triggers to avoid that can cause a relapse.
good luck! and keep us posted on your progress.

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Get your shit together and live your life." Black Snake Moan


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 Post subject: Re: Induction issues
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:08 am 
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Thanks again for the kind words from everyone!
Just a final quick update (for this portion of my recovery). I plan to go through a taper regiment over the next few weeks and wean completely off Suboxone. I have access to all the subs I need as well as lots of emotional and spiritual support from my family. I also have the awesome resource of this online community. I'm going to do this!

I have stabilized at 3mg of Subutex (2mg in morning and 1 mg at night)
My days are going better than I hoped they would. It has only been 1 week since my last dose of oxy, so I imagine my body is now shedding the last tiny remnants of full agonist opiates--good riddance!
I have plenty of energy during the day. I used to love dosing my D.O.C. immediately upon waking and then going back to bed for 45 minutes. Now I try to get out of bed immediately and get started. It's not too hard as the bupe seems to give great energy throughout the day, or maybe not doing the oxy every 2 hours is giving me my natural energy back.

I do struggle a bit in the early evenings. I seem to get that antsy grinding feeling I always associate with drug cravings. Though not overwhelming, it is definitely something I'm aware of and it gives me some anxiety. My mood will turn, and that's when I can get a little impatient with my kids, or whomever else. I do eventually find it pretty easy to fall asleep. I'm getting 6-7 hrs every night.
I realize this is likely more of a conditional response to my suddenly interrupted drug habit. I'm sure my brain has lots more healing to go through. I probably need to look into taking more natural supplements and changing my diet to accommodate for this. I'm also planning to start an excersize regiment that may help.

One last thing. A long time ago, I heard a joke about an acronym for the word, SOBER--Son Of a B$&@!h, Everything's Real! Ain't that the truth! I now feel like I've awoken from a long fuzzy half sleep. My feelings have flooded back like a tidal wave. Listening to music now produces a range of unpredictable emotions. I'll find myself just suddenly tearing up from time to time, but crying feels good.
I'm now spending lots more one on one time with my kids. I called my father up the other day just to say I loved him (I know it meant a lot to him).
All of this just lets me know how far the rabbit hole I fell in. Now that I'm back in the world of the living, I know I don't ever want to go back to that insulated, self centered existence that is opiate addiction. Today everything IS real


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