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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:38 pm 
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lol i know when i did the 16mg on day one i had to come home and lay down right away it was just to much.

Well i did 6mg when i woke up this morning and am still awake so thats better. Still kinda sleepy but not nearly as bad as yesterday. I also got a one a day energy multivitamin and perhaps that is helping as well. Will see how i feel later today and if i need the other 2mg. Will keep you guys posted.

Should i move this discussion to the dosing thread i wonder?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:10 pm 
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Hi everyone,

I am prescribed 8mg bupe/2mg naloxone per day. However because i knew that in the first few days i needed to get the bupe built up in my system I would take a little extra about half way through the day. So it went something like this:

Day before starting: Had heroin in the eventing - 8pm to 9pm.

Day 1. Withdrawal day: waited until I was feeling pretty terrible. Pupils no longer pinned, sweating, but goosebumps, Body aches and zings, feeling really sick and had stomache pain. At about 4pm I took 4mg's. Waited another 3 and half hours and took another 4mg's. Most of my w/d symptoms had gone except for the uncomfortable stomache and had a feeling of sickness in my throat. I slept OK'is thaty evening.

Day 2. Had to go back into work. Got up and took 8mg's whilst the alram clock snoozed for 10 or 15 minutes. Didn't feel very energised. Jumped into the shower whilst I kept the spit in my mouth then spat it out. i do it this way to keep the headaches at bay. Around 4pm i took another 4mg's (split a tablet in half) and did that on my afternoon break at work. I think I slept OK that evening although I have to say all day I was still feeling pretty sick in my stomach.

Day 3. Still had a little stomache ache every now and again during the day time but it was getting less and less and I definately was not craving any Heroin. I took my 8mg's in the morning and then I had 2mg's later on that afternoon / evening.

Day 4. Again had the 8mg's in the morning and hardly had any more stomach issues or feelings of being sick. i mean I think I had about 1 or 2 instances of stomach ache/feeling sick which went away as quickly as it came on. By the evening I didn't feel I needed any extra bupe. but i if i had felt i needed a little bit i would have taken another 2mg's, but like i said i felt i did not need that extra.

By day 5 and since I have had no stomach ache and have just been dosing the 8mg's in the mornings as I get out of bed and in the shower. This amount seems to suit me just right.

I suppose it is like others have said on here it just depends on the person and how tolerant you were to opiates before starting the suboxone, which determines how much you will need to take each day. so the above was what i did and it seemed to work out just fine. Dr junig advises on dosing once per day if you are not taking it for pain management so that is why I take my full 8mg's in the mornings; but for those first few days a took those extra bits until i felt i did not need to. hope this makes sense.

perhaps the 6mgs you have taken today is going to be sufficient for you. so maybe try takinng that amount in the mornings and if you feel that you need a little extra later on take the next 2mgs. just my sugestion and of course i am not a medical professional so i am just suggesting it may work for you. and then if you feel that works (bearing in mind for the day you will have taken a maximum of 8mgs you may then want to try taking the 8mgs all at once the following morning. if you feel like the 8mg was then a little too high you know you can drop it down to 6mg and that would be your sufficient amount each day. does that make sense??

hope you find your comfortable dose soon and then can concentrate on getting better and having your life back :D

cheerio for now

xxx C xxx


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:18 pm 
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No need for us to move the thread. Thanks though. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:16 pm 
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Location: key biscayne,FL (sometimes!)
To Nabbic and all others who suffer:

I am new to site also. I am 4 mos into my second try w/suboxone. Started in Spring 2010 for a few months, missed the euphoria, relapsed and here I am. Wish opiates were my only problem...Also addicted to "bonzo's" (Xanax, etc) for anxiety and sleep. I am no youngster: At 61, I remember a time when "using drugs meant you were one of the "beautiful people.".
(It might have stayed that way, except that all the "bad people" were also using, and then the criminals got involved.....and the flower generation (which was a myth in its own right) imploded!

My pysyhological abstract:

Spent 20years in talking therapies (5day/week psycoanalysis,etc etc,. Diagnosis: chronic depressive disorder, so many mixed personality disorders that the DSM manual ran out of categories; infant, childhood and adult trauma...not here to bore you you with my psychology...only to preface that at some point everyone has to confront why they use...even if it is biological and not psychological (is is really possible to seprate mind/body...I don't know...and in my contact with Dr. Junig, if I understand him, it doesn't really matter; well that may be true....only that, and I will leave the past at this: As an undergraduate at Johns Hopkins, I fell in love with Codeine cough medicine, was a disciplned user (only
thursday nights...no classes on Fri ( I even arranged my scholastic schedule so that I could use)
Then: Fast forward thirty years: Couldn' t get me to take a baby aspirin, only occasional and intemittent Xanax in '90s; built, successful business, two great sons (all this while struggling with chronic depression and a somatic "Freudian symptom" related to the prostate) and treatment in above talking therapies. Must have spent $250K having my head shrunk all those years. I sufffered, but is there really a difference between drug induced suffering and simple suffering...if someone has the answer to that...please reply

Nabbic,

1.) I'm surprised the doctor who gave you the induction even let you go to work on Friday..he should have kept you in his office for at least 6-8 hrs monitoring your blood pressure, etc. This is how the unduction was explained to me, and what I went thru both times.

2.) The best answer to Q2I have: View all 19 of Dr. Junig's videos on you tube. If you really want the best overview of the psychology and physiology of addiction from someone who has been "been to the mountain" and objective information on Subox...he's the man. My advice, and it has been worth its weight in gold, once you view the videos, and you think what he says makes sense, Invest some money in his cause: and I don't mean $5...for crying out loud , the guy probably spent 20yrs getting all thos degres and he's a recovering addict and he's dedicated his life to pathetic people like us ( who the rest of the world couldn't give a fig for....I mean at least $100 for 15-30 minutes and he will get you started thru e/mail x-change, in combination with his websites and blogs, on the road to answer this question for yourself.

Read this forum and when you are ready...you'll know. I was taking 24mg/day! Down to 3.2mg on the taper method. I know I have a long row to hoe...especially with the benzos; but at least this site has gottn me started

3.) Sleep: My heart goes out to you on this one! Especially with the demand of your job. I know I can't function w/o 6-hrs, and it takes the equivalent of an elephant tranquilizer to get me to sleep...I'll stay up all night w/o medication.
But if you are not on prescription sleep medication, I can only tell you that every one that I know is addictive, work for short periods....and you'll be setting yourself up for another addiction. At this point I'm dealing w/the discrete opioid problem. Then I'll tackle the rest!!! (Excercise, ejaculations, and hot baths are all relaxants, or try all three in combination, and I know they help induce sleep.

I will tell you I have discovered three formulations, one RX (non-addictive), other two natural that have really helped with withdrawal:

For fatigue and depression: during withdrawal try medication Nuvigil comes in 150 and 250mg...it is not an amphetamine and is non-addictive. I don't feel as if I am on any medication!
This product, almost miraculously, has eliminated my depression and need for anti-depressants: relief from anxiety and depression was one of the main reasons I started using opioids 40 years ago!!!
Your physician can guide you on this one...all I know is that I have tried every antidepressant, SNRI,SSRI you name it...everything but electro-shock and Lithium...they all suck, one way or the other!

Two products from Neuroscience Inc. Both are, natural liposomal sprays. You take a coupe of sprays in yout mouth. Hold under your tongue for 1-2 minutes. First is called 5-HTP works on the neurotransmitters , GABA, etc that cause deperssion.
Along with the Nuvugil, my depression is gone...what a gift!

Second spray is Tyrosine: This one helps with wakefulness, but again, you get no high Both great products that my Suboxone doctor gave me.

Bye for now. I would be happy to share any information I have to help mutual sufferers who have chosen life as an alternative to the servitude of drug addiction!!
Stuart123

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:09 pm 
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To the Dr. not letting me work. I really didnt give him the option to keep me I HAD to work that day or i could have very well lost my job with or without an excuse from the Dr. He advised me not to goto work that day and go home. he did give me his personal cell number though so i could call him every few hours and give him an update.

As to my dose. Did the 6mg at 9:00am ish. Felt great for the morning with only a slight headache but by 1:00 pm had gotten very sleepy again and laid down for a 2 hour nap. Just woke up here recently and still feeling OK. Dont think i will need the other 2mg today to be honest. I havent had a single craving or withdrawl symptom since Day 1 which is amazing IMO.

Now i did quite a bit of research before i went to my sub Dr. and got on this and i really thought i would require a much higher does. I mean i was taking either 100-150 mg hydrocodone daily or 70 - 80 mg of oxycodone daily. I really thought that was a lot but i guess not lol. Good to know i dont have to take high doses should make it easier to get off of this stuff when the time comes.


PS

Dr. called me today (A sunday!) to check on me and see how i was doing. I explained to him pretty much everything i explained here. He agreed that take the 6mg in the morn and just hold onto the other 2mg just incase but try not to take it unless absolutely needed. He also told me to begin thinking of some kind of counseling solution either one-on-one counseling or Narc/Anon or something as he will require it after i stabilize.

Now with the NA i dont think i could do it with my work schedule plus i really hate talking in groups and would loathe going to the meeting. I would prefer the one-on-one counseling services and may actually look forward to that. Curious what other peoples experiences are with counseling and what/who/type do i need to search for. I live in Colorado Springs, CO if anyone happens to know a good one locally.

Thanks for all the support!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:21 am 
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Hi Nabbic:

Congratulations! In spite of the start-up issues, you're on "the road back." Sounds like you have a caring, empathetic Doc; wish I could say the same. Am I correct that your MD is not a mental health profesional? I was under the assumption that it was a pre-requisite for prescriibers. Guess I was wrong.

Not qualified on any of the medical part: I didn't believe the doctor when he told me that the 8mg filled something like 94% of the receptors after I complained of WD/craving symptoms. (I was using 80-100mg oxycodone, but mixing with fentanyl, benzos, and so much other crap, that it's hard to know where my "ceiling level" was! The additional 16mg, as I understand , was only giving me about a 3-5% boost. I have quietly discovered that the additional 16mg was purely psychological! As I have discovered in the tapering, which was a piece of cake down to 4mg, is that this is the threshold where the "fun" really starts. I'm at 3.8 and was drowning in sweat while sleeping last night!!

I can speak to the "talking therapies" part of your question, I've been thru them all (I think), from the patients point of view over the last 30 years. They gave me hope, what's that worth? As to the NA, I again recommend you to one of Dr. Junig's 19 You tube tapes. I think he provides the best, succinct, and unbiased evaluation that I have heard to date if you feel you require transformational and transcendent healing, and are still young enough for this approach to get traction. The only other "group approach" that I have found that is honestly secular is in a medical setting.

One on one is still the best talking therapy, if its within reach. At this stage, at least 2-3 times /week. Really spend time researching and interviewing the therapist. If you can trade up to a psychiatrist, that's going to be the best, except for the ones who are trained to just dispense meds. There's too many "lightweights" out there with Master's degrees in psychology. Many psychiatrists are still required to do training analysis, where they submit to psychoanysis in order to be cerified. Check out and ask their training orientation, freudian, jungian, etc etc. You must feeel comfortable not only with the person, but their world veiw as well and what they were trained to do. The wrong decision here is costly both in time, money and your psychical health!!

The bottom line: What are people good for, after all, if not to listen? Caveat: A psychiatrist (during one of my hospital visits) told me , rightly, the only problem with talking therapies, is that they don't last. Meaning, if you are looking for support and hope during a trying time (and what could be more trying than quitting opioids), talking therapy is a big peice of the puzzle. Future trauma can bring regression...but from where we are, we can only focus on the day-to day. The future will have to wait!!

Good luck!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:27 am 
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So an update on me.

After asking Dr.J some questions i found out the reason i was getting sick. The amount of opiate i was tolerant to is under the ceiling effect of Sub. so i was taking wayy to much. So i lowered my dose to around 2mg and am going to try that and see how i feel tomorrow.


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Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

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