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 Post subject: Ibogaine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:23 am 
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I found this incredibly interesting site today:

http://iboga.com.au/index.html

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-Ap5lyY ... re=related

I have met one person in my life who used Ibogaine to get clean. He was a much worse junkie than myself. About a couple of years ago, I bumped into him while I was on my way to scoring and he said he hadn't used for over a year thanks to the Ibogaine. I was sceptical. But I never saw him knocking around the flats again (or projects, as you call them).

Has anyone here had any experiences with this stuff?

Unfortunately that place wouldn't treat me as I have a history of psychosis from my late teens. Psychedelic drugs have a habit of leaving too much an impression on my mind :| But for those who are a bit more stable than myself, could this be a Godsend?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:41 am 
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I know very little about it, but it has been discussed here before. Here are three of those threads:

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3 ... t=ibogaine

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3 ... t=ibogaine

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1 ... t=ibogaine

I hope these threads give you some additional information. From what I recall about it, it's a pretty drastic and possibly dangerous option. But like I said, I don't know much about it.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:18 pm 
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I meant to post this article in the other ibogaine threads. Before I read this article I had never heard of it. It seems like the people who get the treatment get pretty amazing results.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-11-17/ ... en-heroin/


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:53 pm 
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I'm not so sure at this point. I've spoken with several places that do Ibogaine. The one I cannot seem to reach is Pangea. They always call when I cannot answer and they never answer when I call. Here's the deal. You have to be off Sub for at least 3 weeks before doing Ibogaine, according to the most informed doctor I've spoken with. They've figured out how to handle Methadone before Ibogaine, but Sub is proving a tougher challenge. Here's what I was told to do.

1) Taper to .25 mg of Sub and get stable there.
2) Call them back and they'd hook me up with a doctor in Los Angeles who they work with.
3) Travel to Los Angeles, see that doctor, and get a script for Oxycontin.
4) Stop the Sub and take the Oxycontin for 3 weeks.
5) Go to San Diego and they'd pick me up and I'd get the Ibogaine treatment in Mexico near these pyramids.

I thought this through and I don't see the point or logic, for me anyway. I'm not in recovery for opiates, but seeing as I'm recovering from a BAD alcohol addiction, I'm know I'm prone to addiction, period. I've never tried Oxy. What if I tried it and I LOVED it!!? What if I tried it for those three weeks and then I decided against the Ibogaine and just kept going with the Oxy?!? I'm too scared to take such chances. I don't have to deal with opiate cravings now and if I took the Oxy, maybe that would be the beginning of having to deal with cravings. Also, why would I taper to such a small dose of Sub and stabilize and then switch to Oxy? Why not keep going with my taper at that point or just jump altogether. To be honest, I think it's a very bad idea for anyone to take such a risk by taking Oxy for three weeks.

I absolutely believe Ibogaine works. A person can be in full-blown heroin w/d and within three days, they are stable and laughing and feeling good. If I get off Sub and I am stuck in PAWS, I may still consider it, but I'm not doing the Oxy thing. No friggin' WAY!!!! That said, if you discontinue Sub without the use of full agonist opiates and can go get Ibogaine and you can afford it, etc., it may not be a bad idea. It not only helps with opiate addiction. It helps with other addictions as well, including smoking. It does seem to really help 'reset' people, BUT you cannot just do Ibogaine and expect to be sober with no other efforts. You have to do lots more work if you want to stay sober. Some people do Ibogaine over and over. It's not that they get physical cravings necessarily. They just have learned that when life is hard, it helps to use. So, they feel overconfident and put themselves in bad situations and they mess up. It's not a cure-all. Just like every other form of treatment for addiction, including Suboxone, there has to be other tools utilized: counseling, support groups, support system, avoiding triggers, etc. If there's one thing I've learned in recovery, it is that there is no magic pill or magic anything. Recovery takes work to maintain and it will take work for the rest of our lives. It is a chronic disease and all we can do is keep it in remission and NEVER EVER believe that we are 100% cured. We'll always have to watch our backs.

One other thing to consider is the actual Ibogaine experience itself. It seems quite scary to me!! I don't know if I want to endure that kind of a trip. It's not a drug that is abused for a very good reason.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:27 pm 
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That is very interesting laddertripper. I definitely don't think you should take oxycontin for 3 weeks, that's a little crazy and could turn out really bad as you said. I've wondered how ibogaine would work with suboxone and I'm glad you've posted your research. I agree with everything you posted about how it helps for "resetting" but not a miracle that will just fix someone. The is a pretty cool documentary about ibogaine called "Facing the Habit". It's on netflix watch instant and I recommend watching it to anyone considering this.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:44 am 
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Interesting post laddertipper, especially the fact they're willing to take on patients who've recently ceased methadone, yet don't want to go anywhere near a suboxone detox and would rather shift them to oxycontin first.

I've detoxed cold turkey from both suboxone & methadone. Both were equally taxing on the body. The main differences I felt were that methadone lasted A LOT longer - I was still badly detoxing 3-4 weeks later, and waves of detox could still be felt months later, whereas suboxone I had landed pretty well by 12-14 days. However the suboxone detox was much more panic stricken, more anxiety ridden and had that general "nightmarish" vibe about it. Perhaps this brings out bad trips? Or maybe ibogaine's rapid-detox magic bullet just doesn't work with suboxone?

What appeals to me about the whole ibogaine concept is not so much a quick and relatively painless detox, moreso the supposed lasting shift in perspective that might help me stay clean in the long haul.


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 Post subject: glen bee and tearj3rker
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:49 pm 
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glen bee, I watched that documentary and that's part of why I believe it takes more than just an Ibogaine treatment to keep addiction in remission. I recall the guy who had the treatment done saying that it wasn't the Ibogaine that failed, but it was HE that had failed. He wasn't doing the follow-up work to stay sober. Really interesting documentary, wasn't it? I think

tearj3rker, we're on the same page with our interest in Ibogaine. I don't want a quick fix either, especially one that involved Oxycontin. However, if I can get off Sub myself and I still don't feel right, I'd consider doing the Ibogaine thing. I'm a recovering alcoholic and Ibogaine helps with all addiction. I am a little worried that in getting off Sub, my ALCOHOL cravings will return. I have no good reason to think that, but Naltrexone is used for alcohol cravings and Naltrexone is at least similar to Nalaxone (although far from being interchangeable). Has the Naloxone in the Sub been helping me not crave alcohol? I have no way of knowing until I'm off it, I guess. If there's one thing I've learned in recovery, it's that you can never assume you are cured. I haven't craved alcohol in years, but I know how fast it could take me back down.

The Dr. I spoke to said they are working towards figuring out how to use Ibogaine for people on Suboxone, but they just aren't there yet. He called Suboxone 'sticky' several times. I guess it just hangs on too hard to those receptors or something. This gentleman was very educated in Ibogaine and addiction in general. The only thing I found strange was the Oxy recommendation. For one thing, apparently, there are doctors in Los Angeles who would prescribe it to me, even though I have no legit medical reason to take it, other than to get off Sub, and I'm pretty certain that's NOT a legit reason :wink: . That came off as a little shady to me. Shady and dangerous. On the other hand, maybe the doctor that would prescribe it to me would watch me closely, as the Ibogaine doctor did say I would have to STAY in Los Angeles for those three weeks. I don't know if they give you a whole script. Perhaps they give you a dose each day or something. Still, for people who want to use Ibogaine to help kill the w/d and PAWS from Sub, I think it's wise to taper first or jump and hang on for long enough to be able to skip the Oxy step. If you can taper to .25 mg, you should be able to go 3 weeks off Sub w/o using Oxy. Wait, it just occurred to me that maybe the Oxy is given because the doctor feels it's too hard for people to stay off regular opiates for three weeks once they discontinue their Sub, and maybe it's not given for Sub w/d, which is what I assumed. He did say you have to taper that low (to .25 mg) to be able to have Ibogaine after only 3 weeks. If you jump at a higher dose, you'd have to wait longer.

Maybe an Ibogaine treatment will be my little (very pricey) present to myself for tapering. I don't know. I'm just so scared of it! I'm scared of going to Mexico, period. Ibogaine can be a bad, bad trip, from what I've read. And they tell you that if you see a light, not to go towards it! That's is terrifying. :shock:

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:52 am 
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laddertipper wrote:
I am a little worried that in getting off Sub, my ALCOHOL cravings will return. I have no good reason to think that, but Naltrexone is used for alcohol cravings and Naltrexone is at least similar to Nalaxone (although far from being interchangeable). Has the Naloxone in the Sub been helping me not crave alcohol? I have no way of knowing until I'm off it, I guess.


Sounds more like the buprenorphine drowning out your alcohol cravings. It's interesting. Alcoholics put on methadone apparently drink heaps less / don't have cravings. Then when they reduce off methadone they start drinking again. I guess the 12 steppers have something going with the "witch for the bitch" thing. Alcohol & opiates often go hand in hand. They're pretty good at calming down the addiction monster in the brain, regardless of your addiction. That being said, knowing what I know now, if I was an alcoholic trying to get clean I'd choose naltrexone or campral over buprenorphine any day. I'd give anything to have my opiate naive brain back.


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And they tell you that if you see a light, not to go towards it! That's is terrifying. :shock:

laddertipper


A trip would have to be really intense to rewire a person's brain out of addiction.

I've experienced some nasty shit in my life as a result of smashing heaps of psychedelic drugs as a teenager. Just be aware that a drug like Ibogaine, which works for addiction by leaving a lasting impression on the person would likely have a risk of psychosis. If you're too young or have mental health issues in the family, I'd steer clear.

T


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:05 am 
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Laddertipper -

We've actually discussed suboxone and alcohol many times before. Since being on sub, many of us just don't have any interest in drinking anymore (myself included) and if we do, it's often no more than one or two drinks. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe they've been doing studies regarding sub and treating alcoholism.

I think it's reasonable to fear that once off suboxone your alcohol cravings could return. That said, the link between the two is pretty much anecdotal at this point. And although I said your fear may be reasonable, try not to focus on that possibility. As we all know, our expectations can color what actually happens. It will be interesting to see how you respond in this regard once you are off suboxone.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:52 am 
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Seriously, they've gotta stop trying to find new markets for suboxone outside the folk who are already addicted to opiates! At least for us it doesn't do any more damage (at least as far as we know).

I would give one of my legs to have my opiate naive brain back, and that's open to negotiation as well, yet I see loads of people being put on regular opiates for depression and alcoholism? It just pisses me off, really. If only they knew what they're getting themselves into.

But I guess sub has been a huge cash cow for RB...

Corporate *expletive* terrorism...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:48 pm 
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TearJerker said, "A trip would have to be really intense to rewire a person's brain out of addiction.", referring to Ibogaine. From what I've read, you don't just get one dose of Ibogaine, during your 'session' they keep giving you more and more and more of the Ibogaine until you reach this incredible point of "freakyness". You apparently go through many stages of "freakyness" before the final stage. Because you get so much of the drug in a relatively short period of time, I can see why the 'trip' would be SO intense.

Like laddertipper said, I heard the doctors warn you that if the 'spirits' invite you to go through the door and you take them up on their offer, you're dead! How's that for Freaky? Yikes!!


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 Post subject: I'd chicken out
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:33 pm 
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I am fairly certain that I would chicken out, even if I planned to do the Ibogaine. I witnessed a friend have a HORRIBLE acid trip and had to stay up all night talking to him and promising the things he saw happening were not truly happening. I never tried a psychedelic because of seeing that. The idea of seeing things that appear to be real but aren't and being that out of control while in Mexico is so dang scary. I don't think I'd feel safe enough to let myself lose control to that point.

I'm not going to expect for my alcohol cravings to come back, because like Hat said, if you expect something to happen, it certainly makes it more likely. I'll just keep an eye on it. Even though the evidence may be anecdotal right now, it's still good to know about. Honestly, when I started Sub it didn't seem to erase my alcohol cravings. I think what started me on the right track was when I last went to detox and had a fantastic counselor who whipped my butt into shape and made me examine all the tough things I didn't want to look at and share them with the whole group. That was when I felt a huge click of desire to be sober, but the cravings were still there. What has helped my cravings immensely is putting a lot of time between me and the last time I drank. It becomes harder and harder to remember what it was like to drink or why I liked it. I HOPE that I haven't been making all this progress in recovery from alcoholism just to get of Sub and have my cravings for alcohol come right back. I wouldn't think so, simply because of how long it has been. I had to learn to deal with stress and holidays and stuff without drinking. Every time I didn't drink in one of those situations, it got a little easier and more normal. I know it would take exactly one drink to remind me and I'd be toast again. It's never far off. Does opiate addiction get easier with time as well or is it unique in that the brain can bring that craving right back up? Say you haven't had an opiate in 20 years, would you still have cravings or would the memory of that feeling have faded so much that you wouldn't be able to conjure it up again?

I don't understand the 'opiate naive' thing. I know that's the label I've heard from my second two Sub docs and from the "Here to Help" people. I've heard that it probably wasn't a smart decision to give an "opiate naive" person Suboxone for pain management. What is opiate naive? I had taken opiates before. I'd had several surgeries over the seven years before Suboxone. I just didn't get addicted to them. I didn't finish the bottle of them but I don't know exactly why. Well, when I was young, my mom was doling them out, and then when I was older, I couldn't take them because I wanted to resume drinking and was too afraid to combine them. That's truly why I nixed the opiates in adulthood. And the Vicodin made me so ill that I simply couldn't get addicted to it. I still think Oxy would have nailed my butt because Percocet didn't make me yak so I would have been able to hold Oxy down. I have a strong suspicion that I would have felt that I found Heaven. That's so scary!! I don't want to ever take an opiate, if possible, just because I do assume that if it was the right one and I could hold it down, it could very well own me. I am worried about this opiate naive thing because as I decrease my Sub, it will work more as a full agonist, right? So, in tapering off Sub, will I get such a great feeling from it that I will create a desire for opiates?!!?? I tapered ON to Sub and that didn't happen. It made me pretty sick to my stomach frankly and irritated in the beginning.

My old neighbor called me yesterday to inform me that she has been advised to begin Suboxone for medication-resistant depression and migraines. She's not on any opiates. I advised her to not do this and she already knew about Suboxone from me so she told the doctor she didn't think she wanted to do that but would think about it. I was opposed to it initially, but on rethinking it, maybe I am wrong. She is not doing well at all. She's in bed all the time and cannot even work anymore. It's REALLY bad. She was inpatient for a suicide attempt not that long ago. She's gone through so many depression meds. I think Sub needs to be given out very carefully if it's not being given for opiate addiction, but in a case like my neighbor's I wonder if it actually would be worth it. And for an alcoholic, certainly they should try other approaches that don't create any dependency before considering Sub. However, if studies can show Sub does help alcohol cravings, then maybe that's a good thing. I spent enough time in AA meetings to meet loads of people who dies from alcoholism. It runs in my family like cancer. There's alcoholics as far back as anyone can remember. Both my younger sisters are functioning alcoholics.

I've struggled a lot to work through feeling like getting on Sub was this HUGE mistake and unnecessary nightmare. However, I wonder now if maybe this was divine intervention...the energy of the universe..whatever...maybe it was a way of giving me a break in my alcohol cravings so that I could get a long chunk of sobriety time behind me. How do I know that I could have stayed off alcohol without Suboxone? There's no way to ever know. I did still crave alcohol on Sub but I didn't act on it so maybe the cravings were not as severe? I tend to think everything happens for a reason, and maybe that is my reason. Just a thought.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Opiate naive - to me - means that the person doesn't have a tolerance to opiates. An addict obviously isn't opiate naive and a person who's been on pain meds for long enough to build up a pretty good tolerance to opiates isn't either. Based on your story I would say you were opiate naive.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:52 am 
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I often wish that the medical world was a bit more advanced with dealing with problems like addiction & depression than they are at the moment.

Quote:
My old neighbor called me yesterday to inform me that she has been advised to begin Suboxone for medication-resistant depression and migraines. She's not on any opiates. I advised her to not do this and she already knew about Suboxone from me so she told the doctor she didn't think she wanted to do that but would think about it. I was opposed to it initially, but on rethinking it, maybe I am wrong. She is not doing well at all. She's in bed all the time and cannot even work anymore. It's REALLY bad.
:roll:

I just hope she knows what she's getting herself into. Personally, I'd choose ECT (brain zapping) over opiate dependence to treat depression. But I've never had my brain zapped so it could be worse for all I know?

Quote:
TearJerker said, "A trip would have to be really intense to rewire a person's brain out of addiction.", referring to Ibogaine. From what I've read, you don't just get one dose of Ibogaine, during your 'session' they keep giving you more and more and more of the Ibogaine until you reach this incredible point of "freakyness". You apparently go through many stages of "freakyness" before the final stage.


The guy here in Australia on gives one dose, so I guess it depends where you do it. Maybe he gives it all in one whack? I dunno.

Maybe the fact that there's nobody on this board who's taken Ibogaine is testament to its success? They've been cured of their addiction, and now they're out there living their lives and don't look back? Or maybe they "went to the light?" :|

As for the opiate-naive thing. To the medical world it's all about tolerance. I kinda look at it from an addicts point of view. For example a person who has the occasional cigarette while drinking with their friends, they won't go home and be craving smokes through the day & during work hours. But if they let it creep into other parts of their life, say at the cafe, or before an exam to calm the nerves, then sooner or later they cross an invisible line and will find themselves starting to crave nicotine & get angry and jittery without a smoke. They're no longer nicotine naive then as their brain has tasted dependency. If they start using regularly, it takes a long time clean for the cravings to go away, and most people say they never go away completely. However they say they do get further apart and easier to handle with time.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:52 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
Maybe the fact that there's nobody on this board who's taken Ibogaine is testament to its success? They've been cured of their addiction, and now they're out there living their lives and don't look back? Or maybe they "went to the light?" :|


The links that hatmaker posted have 2 people posting who have done ibogaine treatment.

Also I wanted to respond about the alcoholism and suboxone and just say that as a raging alcoholic (as well as an opiate addict) I have to believe suboxone is helping me out a lot. I am sober from everything 10 months yesterday and that is crazy for me. I have quit drinking in the past and my head was definitely in a different place then but it was nowhere near as "easy" as it is now. I don't want to jinx what I have going on now by saying this. I did go to AA for 90 meetings in 90 days at first and went to meetings regularly after that although as of late I have not been going much. Maybe that has a lot to do with it too, the whole admitting powerlessness and just "surrendering" to the fact that I can not drink, smoke pot, sniff dilaudid and etc.. That has put a whole new way of thinking in my brain but I just don't have the obsession to drink like I used to. I drank every day for about 12 years...

p.s. I also weaned off of a pretty long 7mg/ day valium habit on suboxone too and it wasn't THAT BAD.


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