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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:50 pm 
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I have found from experience that Suboxone has a ceiling effect and too much is actually not necessary. It's the popular saying about Buprenorphine, less is more. But, when I was taking 8 mgs a day I would break it in 4 and my Doctor said that perfectly fine. I think its the mild good feeling of pain relief that makes it much better taking it throughout the day. I really can't explain it but when I was on 8mg I would feel WAY better taking only 2mgs every 4 hours. It seemed to work much better instead of peaking, but then again I use it as pain relief so multiple times throughout the day was the day to go.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:27 am 
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hockeyplayer17 wrote:
I have found from experience that Suboxone has a ceiling effect and too much is actually not necessary. It's the popular saying about Buprenorphine, less is more. But, when I was taking 8 mgs a day I would break it in 4 and my Doctor said that perfectly fine. I think its the mild good feeling of pain relief that makes it much better taking it throughout the day. I really can't explain it but when I was on 8mg I would feel WAY better taking only 2mgs every 4 hours. It seemed to work much better instead of peaking, but then again I use it as pain relief so multiple times throughout the day was the day to go.


hockeyplayer - you're taking your sub right IF you're taking it for pain. Otherwise, if you're just taking it for addiction, it's suggested to take it only once daily. Otherwise dosing throughout the day is feeding your addictive behaviors. You're continuing the cycle of popping a pills whenever you feel like it and that's a habit you need to break. Suboxone has an extremely long average half-life (37 hours). It's meant to be that way specifically so it can be taken only once per day (some countries only dose once every other day).

The idea is to take it once in the morning and forget about it the rest of the day. It's terribly important to break that habit of dosing every 4 hours, in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:14 am 
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A lot of times i find myself insufflating/snorting my dose. I've read that it has a higher bioavailability, and it just seems to go farther sometimes. I realize that's not the way it was intended to be taken, but as a drug addict, i find it difficult not to. About half of the time i'll go sublingual, and half the time i'll snort it. Either way i end up paranoid about not getting the most out of my dose, especially from just one little 2mg pill a day. I considered IVing it, and even dissolved some in a spoon once, but the solution was really goopy and just not looking like something i'd want to put in my veins, so i decided not to. Glad i didn't, because i've heard you can get nasty abscesses and what not from all the fillers and junk in there. Is there a different duration associated with different routes of administration? Certainly other opioids exhibit this, and it would seem that snorted bupe is shorter in duration than sublingual bupe, but its effects are so subtle with my tolerance that i don't really notice it.


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 Post subject: Great info!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:33 am 
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Hey guys. This is my first post, so I just want to start by thanking everyone for all the helpful info I've read in this thread and the forums in general. From what I've seen so far, this looks like a really friendly and helpful place, and it makes me feel a lot better knowing there are so many other people like me out there trying to kick opiate habits using buprenorphine .

Here in Australia, you cannot get takeaway bottles or packs of Suboxone, so you have to visit the chemist every single morning and be dosed in there (you're not supposed to leave till you've swallowed, as they fear people will smuggle them out! Stupid, I know).

Obviously the constraints of having to be dosed at a chemist makes the whole experience more difficult as you always fear you are either a.) hanging around in the chemist too long, annoying the staff or b.) not getting a proper dose if you are rushed.

I take 16mg in tablet form (2 x 8mg) and have been putting them whole under my tongue. Once the sub starts to dissolve I use my tongue to work the powder into my gums and around my mouth. However I still let saliva build up and then swallow the gross mixture about 20 mins later. Sometimes I can escape out of the chemist without saying goodbye with the suboxone/saliva mix still in my mouth. Then I can leave it in my mouth for another 20 mins or so while I go about other things. It makes such a big difference when I take 40 minutes to let it absorb, rather than the twenty they think should be sufficient.

So am I doing anything wrong? Are there things I can do to allow it to absorb more quickly, and consequently swallow earlier? i.e. should twenty minutes be enough? Its the time it takes that is a real problem for me, given I have to spend it sitting in a chemist.

I'm not after definitive answers or an outright solution to my problem, as I know everyone is different, just general opinions on things I might be able to do to get more out of tablet suboxone dosage. For instance I take the 2 x 8mg tablets whole. Do you think it would it be better to asked for them to be crushed?

Thanks for your help.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:34 am 
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Welcome to the forum Insomniac! It's a great place to learn more about Suboxone treatment and be able to talk to others who are experiencing the same things that you are while taking subs.

Have you seen Dr Junig's blog on this topic? This might answer some of your questions. It seems that waiting 20 minutes would be enough time to get the med in your system, especially since you are taking 16mg. Even after you swallow and leave the pharmacy, there is still some bup in your mouth that is still being absorbed. Here's the link to the blog:

http://suboxonetalkzone.com/?p=1179


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Hi everyone. I am new here and today is my first day to recovery. I joined this forum because it's nice to know that there is support out there thank you. I was given the films today I started with half a strip 7 hours after my last dose so I wouldn't go into withdrawal. It seems to be helping but now I'm worried that I'm not taking it right. I did swallow several times and like an idiot I drank some coffee after it dissolved. My question is do I wait a certain amount of time before I drink and swallow? Sorry just really new at this but I want to do this for me and my son. Thank you


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:12 pm 
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Hey Insomniac.

Good to see another Aussie :) I know how much it sucks to have to drag our asses to the pharmacy to get dosed. These days I get 4 x take-aways, which makes it more manageable. But there is a positive to it. We have much less.. actually we have next to no abuse of Suboxone in this country, so treatment isn't as controversial here as in the States. Also, the inconvenience of supervised dosing adds extra motivation to get off Sub once we're ready, so we're possibly more willing to challenge our recoveries when the time comes by doing this.

I don't have to stay in my pharmacy to wait for my Sub to dissolve anymore. I've developed quite a good relationship with my pharmacy, and these days they give me my dose and I just walk out. I believe once you start to get take-aways, the pharmacy will be more lenient, because it doesn't make sense if they know you've got a pocket full of Subs to take home, yet they make you sit there to wait for your dose to dissolve.

I've been dosed at a few different pharmacies, and I've found they vary with their expectations. The pharmacies in the "rougher" areas, like Richmond and Springvale, are stricter. If a pharmacy is dosing Subutex to someone, they're very strict. I don't think people on Subutex can get ANY take-aways! Some pharmacies are run by conservative pharmacists who aren't that accepting of addiction, but they do it because of the tax benefits (pharmacies get tax exemptions for dispensing methadone / sub), so they're not as "nice".

I do think it's important that you find a good pharmacy and have a good relationship with your pharmacist. It does make things a lot easier. If your pharmacist refuses to develop some trust in you, then maybe look around for another local pharmacy. But it also comes down to you. Appearance means a LOT with this. If you rock up to your pharmacy looking like shit, like you've been on a bender for a few days, then they'll be wary. I've found pharmacists are warier of their clients who still walk / talk / dress like junkies.

How long have you been on your program? How long do you think


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 Post subject: Thanks guys
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:05 am 
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Taurus wrote:
Welcome to the forum Insomniac! It's a great place to learn more about Suboxone treatment and be able to talk to others who are experiencing the same things that you are while taking subs.

Have you seen Dr Junig's blog on this topic? This might answer some of your questions. It seems that waiting 20 minutes would be enough time to get the med in your system, especially since you are taking 16mg. Even after you swallow and leave the pharmacy, there is still some bup in your mouth that is still being absorbed.


Thanks a lot Taurus. Appreciate the welcome. I've seen people refer to Dr Junig's topic, and have bookmarked it to read later today. He sounds like a an extremely knowledgeable guy!

Overit42 wrote:
Hi everyone. I am new here and today is my first day to recovery. I joined this forum because it's nice to know that there is support out there thank you. I was given the films today I started with half a strip 7 hours after my last dose so I wouldn't go into withdrawal. It seems to be helping but now I'm worried that I'm not taking it right. I did swallow several times and like an idiot I drank some coffee after it dissolved. My question is do I wait a certain amount of time before I drink and swallow? Sorry just really new at this but I want to do this for me and my son. Thank you


Congratulations on taking a big step forwards Overit. I'm fairly new to this whole thing myself so I'm sure other people are in a better position to answer, but the general wisdom seems to be to not drink anything for about 10-15 mins after you've swallowed the bupe mixture in your mouth (If I'm wrong on this, someone please feel free to correct!).

tearj3rker wrote:
Hey Insomniac.

Good to see another Aussie I know how much it sucks to have to drag our asses to the pharmacy to get dosed. These days I get 4 x take-aways, which makes it more manageable. But there is a positive to it. We have much less.. actually we have next to no abuse of Suboxone in this country, so treatment isn't as controversial here as in the States. Also, the inconvenience of supervised dosing adds extra motivation to get off Sub once we're ready, so we're possibly more willing to challenge our recoveries when the time comes by doing this.


Hey tearj3rker

It is indeed great to see another Aussie here! I didn't expect that, but I guess I should have (given its the net and all). I'd even say "G'day mate" but that would be too clichéd ;)

You provide some very wise advice. One of the first things I did when finding myself a doctor and trying to find a pharmacy to take me on, was to spruce myself up so I was neat and tidy, wear long sleeve tops or shirts (for obvious reasons) and to be as polite, willing and and "issue free" as possible. I've heard of many people having bad experiences with shitty judgemental staff (always the more conservative chemists as you say). Luckily my chemist is in a good area (Sandy Bay, Tasmania) and the staff are very nice, and more the progressive friendly type, that don't treat me like a a piece of shit. I think sometimes they must know I walk out with the mixture still in my mouth as I'll often just nod to say goodbye. I'm just paranoid on being pulled up on it and consequently having to swallow to early if I'm forced to speak.

That's amazing to hear you can get Suboxone take-aways! I was told that would never be possible and that in Tasmania only methadone is available for take-away (and even then after a long period of trust building). Perhaps laws differ from state to state? I'll have to find out, as getting 4 x take-aways would be a dream come true for me. I'm without a license at the moment so getting a bus down to the chemist each morning while I have mild withdrawals is never fun. I'd love to be able to wake up and have one straight away.

You make some other interesting points I' hadn't considered about the advantages of doctor's not being able to prescribe take home bottles of Suboxone in Australia. Even though this would be massively more convenient, I'm sure it has cut down on abuse of the drug as you said (even if it is harder to abuse given its Naloxone contents) and you're right that the attchment to the chemist will give me a greater desire to eventually get off the sub as well (I'm a loooong way off even thinking about cutting down my dose yet though).

I started roughly one month ago. I admittedly slipped up twice during the first week by using, but that was more because they started me off on such a low sub dose that I wasn't getting any relief (4mgs a day with a 2mg increase every 2nd day) . It wasn't until I got up to 16mg that I felt like I was where I needed to be to stop me from using, and kill off the worst of the withdrawals. And so far so good.

I miss using sometimes (who doesn't?) but then I remember what a miserable existence it was and I can honestly say I'm a lot happier now. I still have a long way to go, but compared to how messed up I was 6 months ago on morphine, there's no comparison!

How long have you been on Suboxone? And how long did it take for you to build up enough trust to get your doctor to allow take-aways?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:14 am 
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I've been on Sub nearly 2 years now, though I'd been on it in the past but only for 3-4 month periods.

It really didn't take me as long as it should to get a few take-aways under my belt. I've known my doc for a while. He's quite sought after and doesn't usually bulk bill, but he offers me bulk billing which is cool. At one stage I was getting 5 take-aways, though I had a lapse-thing happen for a week or so so he cut me back to 3, then now 4 again.

The main reason I got take-aways so quickly was cos after a couple of months on the program I returned to study, and I had 4 8:30AM starts, so I couldn't get dosed those mornings. He conceded that it'd be better for me to move forward in my life and study than be held back because I was on the Sub program.

I do find it a bit weird that Tas offers take-aways for methadone but not Sub. The general belief is that methadone has more abuse potential than Suboxone, which is why methadonians get 3x take aways whereas Sub patients can get 5 x take-aways.

Seriously look into it. I just googled stuff and found this:

http://www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/83830/Draft_TOPP_-_Version_4.0_-_20110930.pdf

Tasmania isn't that big on take-aways for Sub it seems, but they are huge on double and triple dosing. Apparently everyone tries double dosing in Tas, and if double dosing works for them they then try triple dosing. Because that'd only require getting dosed twice a week, they don't see the point in take-aways. However in my experience (having a fast metabolism), double dosing is not all it's cracked up to be, and it isn't being used nearly as much on the mainland these days.

If double dosing doesn't work, then a patient is allowed only 2 take aways a week. That's shit. Move to Melbourne :)


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 Post subject: my subs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:08 pm 
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im on 8mg's 4 times a day. I've been on it since 2008. i take the film. I'd rather the tab tho,


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 Post subject: film
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:14 pm 
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I SO RATHER THE TABS! [font=Century Gothic] [/font]


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:42 pm 
Hey tearj3rker,
It’s amazing the difference in regulations from state to state in Australia.
I’m in New South Wales and in eight months I’ve progressed from daily dosing at the pharmacy to picking up a 28 day supply at a time with no supervised dosing. I still have to see my sub doc every three months for a drug screen and to get a new prescription faxed to the pharmacy. Obviously I’ve had to keep my nose clean to get to this level, no slip ups, clean drug tests and I’m studying nursing full time at uni (studying nursing is a bit of a worry, AHPRA, the controlling body has just brought in compulsory registration for students this year, it remains to be seen how they react to students being on sub)
My doctor bulk bills (no charge) and in Australia meds like methadone and suboxone are free (there is a “dosing fee” charged by pharmacies which doesn’t apply to me) so all in all I’m pretty damn lucky!!
Cheers,
subie


tearj3rker wrote:
I've been on Sub nearly 2 years now, though I'd been on it in the past but only for 3-4 month periods.

It really didn't take me as long as it should to get a few take-aways under my belt. I've known my doc for a while. He's quite sought after and doesn't usually bulk bill, but he offers me bulk billing which is cool. At one stage I was getting 5 take-aways, though I had a lapse-thing happen for a week or so so he cut me back to 3, then now 4 again.

The main reason I got take-aways so quickly was cos after a couple of months on the program I returned to study, and I had 4 8:30AM starts, so I couldn't get dosed those mornings. He conceded that it'd be better for me to move forward in my life and study than be held back because I was on the Sub program.

I do find it a bit weird that Tas offers take-aways for methadone but not Sub. The general belief is that methadone has more abuse potential than Suboxone, which is why methadonians get 3x take aways whereas Sub patients can get 5 x take-aways.

Seriously look into it. I just googled stuff and found this:

http://www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/83830/Draft_TOPP_-_Version_4.0_-_20110930.pdf

Tasmania isn't that big on take-aways for Sub it seems, but they are huge on double and triple dosing. Apparently everyone tries double dosing in Tas, and if double dosing works for them they then try triple dosing. Because that'd only require getting dosed twice a week, they don't see the point in take-aways. However in my experience (having a fast metabolism), double dosing is not all it's cracked up to be, and it isn't being used nearly as much on the mainland these days.

If double dosing doesn't work, then a patient is allowed only 2 take aways a week. That's shit. Move to Melbourne :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Study by Univ. of Alberta

Abstract

Within the oral mucosal cavity, the buccal region offers an attractive route of administration for systemic drug delivery. The mucosa has a rich blood supply and it is relatively permeable. It is the objective of this article to review buccal drug delivery by discussing the structure and environment of the oral mucosa and the experimental methods used in assessing buccal drug permeation/absorption. Buccal dosage forms will also be reviewed with an emphasis on bioadhesive polymeric based delivery systems

I. Introduction

Amongst the various routes of drug delivery, oral route is perhaps the most preferred to the patient and the clinician alike. However, peroral administration of drugs has disadvantages such as hepatic first pass metabolism and enzymatic degradation within the GI tract, that prohibit oral administration of certain classes of drugs especially peptides and proteins. Consequently, other absorptive mucosae are considered as potential sites for drug administration. Transmucosal routes of drug delivery (i.e., the mucosal linings of the nasal, rectal, vaginal, ocular, and oral cavity) offer distinct advantages over peroral administration for systemic drug delivery. These advantages include possible bypass of first pass effect, avoidance of presystemic elimination within the GI tract, and, depending on the particular drug, a better enzymatic flora for drug absorption.

The nasal cavity as a site for systemic drug delivery has been investigated by many research groups (1-7) and the route has already reached commercial status with several drugs including LHRH (8, 9) and calcitonin (10-12). However, the potential irritation and the irreversible damage to the ciliary action of the nasal cavity from chronic application of nasal dosage forms, as well as the large intra- and inter-subject variability in mucus secretion in the nasal mucosa, could significantly affect drug absorption from this site. Even though the rectal, vaginal, and ocular mucosae all offer certain advantages, the poor patient acceptability associated with these sites renders them reserved for local applications rather than systemic drug administration. The oral cavity, on the other hand, is highly acceptable by patients, the mucosa is relatively permeable with a rich blood supply, it is robust and shows short recovery times after stress or damage (13-15), and the virtual lack of Langerhans cells (16) makes the oral mucosa tolerant to potential allergens. Furthermore, oral transmucosal drug delivery bypasses first pass effect and avoids pre-systemic elimination in the GI tract. These factors make the oral mucosal cavity a very attractive and feasible site for systemic drug delivery.

Within the oral mucosal cavity, delivery of drugs is classified into three categories: (i) sublingual delivery, which is systemic delivery of drugs through the mucosal membranes lining the floor of the mouth, (ii) buccal delivery, which is drug administration through the mucosal membranes lining the cheeks (buccal mucosa), and (iii) local delivery, which is drug delivery into the oral cavity.

[[cont'd at link]] I'm too new to include the link, so I made it the title. I Love U too



..Day 2 (clock time)
slight improvement/trimmed film into 5 pieces/ (ii) buccal delivery route, i.e. 'tween the cheek & gums
/ one moment at a ti m e


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 Post subject: much help.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:21 am 
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Honestly thank you for everyone's inputs this has been really helpful to me (besides someone saying that they swallow the films and it works better). Even though I've been on suboxone for almost 2 years, I just started the films a couple months ago and just like others I've been having some difficulty with the the new films. Either I'm getting them stuck on my inner lip/teeth, disintegration from my finger, to much saliva exc... but it's saving me money plus the tabs are going to be off the market soon and I mine as well get used to the films now. The thing that has been bothering me the most, from the addict in me, is that I feel like when I was taking the tablets I could feel that sugar texture under my tongue the whole time (meaning I knew that it was still dissolving which made me happy) now when I use the films if I have to much saliva in my mouth or I talk while it's in my mouth I can't feel it. It makes me think that a.) it couldn't have dissolved PROPERLY that fast b.) it only does that when I have to much saliva in my mouth, so clearly something isn't right and then for the rest of the day until my second dose I'm off and this pisses me off cuz I can't friggin help having to much saliva in my mouth, not to mention the more I concentrate on it the more it builds up in my mouth. Now when that happens I get paranoid and take another one which makes me fall short at the end of the month but I'm such an addict and even though i'm on 16 mg I have to get every last drop in me to feel okaty mentally. Even though I must sound like such a freak I can't help it and I need advise. I don't know anyone else that is on suboxone films. Thanks and hope everyone had a great + safe holiday.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:14 am 
Trust me i know how those films can get stuck to your teeth. Or even worse on your finger trying to get it under the tongue. It can be such a pain in the ass to waste such a expensive subsance. : ( The bioavailability is so much higher when you have it in a alcohol solution. So i've been trying to find ways to get the most outta the medication. So far i've tried swishing 151 proof alcohol in my mouth for a minute or so. then right after sticking 4mg under the tongue for 15 minutues. and it has helped a little. But i'm sure there is got to be a better way then this.
I've heard that taking just a few drops of high proof alcohol in a cap and dissolving a film in it and mixing it up real good. Then taking a cotton ball and using pea size cotton soaking the mixture up. Then use that cotton ball under the tongue for the same 10-15 minutes as normal. To me this seems to work good. I'm not sure if it's placebo or not. How can someone taper properly without taking into account of the bioavailability of the medication depending on what route of administration they are using?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:51 am 
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chaimeragiest wrote:
How can someone taper properly without taking into account of the bioavailability of the medication depending on what route of administration they are using?


I've got two links for you, with very easy to understand directions on how to get your dose to
VERY SMALL incriments, and even CONSISTENTLY


here's how to get your dose down to TENTHS of a mg......

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=296


Here's how to get to POINT twenty-five miligrams..... ( 0.25 ) or a quarter of ONE miligram......


http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7449


Hope this helps you forward on your journey..... :arrow:
good luck :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:43 pm 
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chaimeragiest wrote:
Trust me i know how those films can get stuck to your teeth. Or even worse on your finger trying to get it under the tongue. It can be such a pain in the ass to waste such a expensive subsance. : ( The bioavailability is so much higher when you have it in a alcohol solution. So i've been trying to find ways to get the most outta the medication. So far i've tried swishing 151 proof alcohol in my mouth for a minute or so. then right after sticking 4mg under the tongue for 15 minutues. and it has helped a little. But i'm sure there is got to be a better way then this.
I've heard that taking just a few drops of high proof alcohol in a cap and dissolving a film in it and mixing it up real good. Then taking a cotton ball and using pea size cotton soaking the mixture up. Then use that cotton ball under the tongue for the same 10-15 minutes as normal. To me this seems to work good. I'm not sure if it's placebo or not. How can someone taper properly without taking into account of the bioavailability of the medication depending on what route of administration they are using?

I have been doing the alky thing too for better consistancey in my taber at lower doses although the cotton just makes me salivate which wastes it. I have found swishing with listerine then using a syringe to apply about .2ml of 151proof under my tongue works well. I spit it out after the burn and after I finish salivating then place my dose there. seems to work just as well as cotton and no slober. also I am just strting to experiment with potentiators. I take 600 mg of cimetidine (TAGAMENT) 45-60 min before dosing. this makes the liver do a better job getting the sub in and lengthens the effect. benadryl is supposed to be another potentiater too. so far with these 2 technigues I have only needed about half my normal dose to maintain. the only thing I dont like is I think the 151 is absorbed sublingually and I can feel a slight alcohol effect (I hate alky) or maybe its the sub. not sure.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:48 am 
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immodium should be changed to tagamet


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:41 am 
like chaimeragiest and birdcatcher said. I also use the mouthwash idea. When i first wake up in the morning with dry mouth, i swish for 2 minutes and spit it out. Then put the film under the tongue.

Question. How were those studies that i saw where bupe in a alcoholic solution made the bio like 70% actaully done? I would like to know what method they did to acheive this??? Anyone? Buller.... Buller....

I take 12mg a day and would like to know how to get the most outta this medication for economical purposes. I know insufflated was a better percentage but i no longer snort any meds as that leads me to a very dark and lonely spot. And i will never IV anything. I was in the army for 4 years and have good experience with administering i.v's to other soldiers. But i will never do it for recreational purposes. Basically the other method i am interested in is "bupenorphine in alcoholic solution" as i read about..


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:49 pm 
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will430 wrote:
like chaimeragiest and birdcatcher said. I also use the mouthwash idea. When i first wake up in the morning with dry mouth, i swish for 2 minutes and spit it out. Then put the film under the tongue.

Question. How were those studies that i saw where bupe in a alcoholic solution made the bio like 70% actaully done? I would like to know what method they did to acheive this??? Anyone? Buller.... Buller....

I take 12mg a day and would like to know how to get the most outta this medication for economical purposes. I know insufflated was a better percentage but i no longer snort any meds as that leads me to a very dark and lonely spot. And i will never IV anything. I was in the army for 4 years and have good experience with administering i.v's to other soldiers. But i will never do it for recreational purposes. Basically the other method i am interested in is "bupenorphine in alcoholic solution" as i read about..



WELL I don't know anything about the alcohol solution,
but there's always this "route"


http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2649

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3034

LOL!!!! :lol:

honestly now.....
about the 'alcohol solution' this is what I found....


http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/3736 ... l-Solution

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/4049 ... ingual-Use


I was trying to just do a copy/paste, I HATE to 'divert' you to a different forum, but that's what I found....
hope it helps

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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