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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:21 pm 
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I have read and re- read the liquid taper stories but not one person states how to STORE the solution?
I am surprised noone asked.

I am starting my liquid taper tomorrow morning and have no idea now how to store this?

I mixed 2mg crushed pill with 2ml of water and it is a very tiny solution as you can imagine. I have it currently stored in a 16oz glass measuring cup in my refrigerator with a piece of aluminum foil over it?

Is this correct or do I leave room temperature open to air?
I am afraid the water will dissolve but in refrigerator wouldnt it get more watery due to the cold? Will it change the effectiveness of the bup in cold water vs regular temp?

I am starting to freak now with all these questions.

I have another thread noone has answered but would appreciate it if I could get some more DETAILED direction on to the solution.

I also found that the mixture of sediment is now on the sides of my glass measuring cup and I can't get it down into the water? My guess is this occurred when I poured the powdery crushed pill into the container it got on the sides now I dont have enough water in the container to swish it back down into the tiny puddle in the container.

I cant add more water as that will ruin my measurement.

Can someone answer these two important questions:
1) How to store the solution? Pill containers are plastic and my concern is the water will absorb into the walls of those containers or spill out - they are not air tight and not ment for liquid. So I have mine in a glass measuring cup but the sediment got on sides..how do I prevent this?
2) Do I store in fridge ?
3) Covered or not covered?
4) Air tight or does it matter?
5) Can you leave at room temp?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Hi,


Don't worry, everything is good,
First, let me qualify myself, and let you know that i have been using the liquid taper method for about 8 months now.

Here is what I know, from my own taper, and 2 years of an extended major in chemistry.

1) keep solution always in fridge
2) always use cold distilled or cold boiled water (chlorine is bad, but still acceptable, along with all other micronutrients)
The bupe molecule is not that sensitive to self unravel in mild conditions.
3) store in a amber bottle, if you like(not necessary) but essential if you are a purist.(I am not)
4) no need to make airtight, just make sure you have a lid that can stop spillage bottle falls over
5) do not store at room temp, ever. This will promote bacteria growth.
6) try not to make solutions that last longer than a couple of weeks. If you have to, take some of it and freeze it.
7) do not worry about pill mass, it is inconsiquential in the grand scheme of things. As long as you always use the same pill size, then it should not matter.



Hope this helps,

Hopespring


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Note:


When you dissolve the pill, 95% OF THE PILL is just fillers and crap.
It usually does not dissolve. nor will it affect your dosing.

1) when ever you dose , just swirl the solution, before dosing, draw up your amount, and you are good.


The stuff lying on the bottom(the filler crap) will not affect you. Just ignore it.

HS


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:59 pm 
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HM Thank you for your reply.

I am so thankful to relieve myself since I am starting this tomorrow morning and dont want to screw up.

2 more questions if I may:
1) I am using regular water today as I didnt have a chance to get distilled water, will that be ok tomorrow?
2) How do people usually do this in the mornings if you take your dose as early as 3:30 or 4:00am? Believe it or not, my schedule is I take at that hour so I can get a few hours sleep before I have to wake up. I fall asleep ok normally but then toss and turn. taking my morning dose at that wee hour, for whatever reason, I tend to sleep better those last couple hours which helps. May not matter, but mentally it soothes me. Should I keep a portion of the "solution" by my bed at night or do people generally trape to the kitchen and try to dose from the syrnge in the kitchen for their morning dose?

Not trying to be a pain but was wondering if I pour out some for my bedside just enough for my morning dose then put the rest back in fridge would that work or is that too weird?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:41 am 
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Hi,

Regular water will be fine until you get some boiled cooled water or distilled water tomorrow.

I dose at waking around 6am, if i wake before and cannot sleep, I just dose a bit earlier, If i am tired, I go back to bed, if not, i stay up and start the day..

You will be surprised how good early mornings are , if u have to dose early, ie 4am or 5am, and stay awake.
You can get so much done...!

If you are not below 2mg per day, then stop stressing about inevitable doom, tapering is easy, at this doseage, and usually pretty enjoyable, as it is still a high dose, and will always fill your receptors well.

HS

p.s. I always leave doses in fridge, try to avoid leaving it by your bed, as bacteria does not take long to take hold, in warm conditions. If it is just one dose, it should not matter, but why take the risk..
If you have to leave it by your bed, use a ice cup or something, to keep it cool.
experiment , and have some fun.


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 Post subject: What Hope said...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:22 pm 
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I always kept my mixture in a small clean pill bottle in the fridge. Pill bottles aren't airtight but will hold the liquid if you spill it or knock it over. Happened to me a lot when I would stumble into the kitchen half asleep at 3:30am to take my dose! I always used tap water, but it may be cleaner using distilled?? I wouldn't worry about evaporation or any condensation on the sides of the bottle...I would only make about a 7-10days of solution at a time and shake it around before drawing the mixture into the syringe. I would only take .3ml - .4ml at a time since it was easier to hold under my tongue...I always liked to take my dose and fall back asleep for an hour or two before getting up.

Like hope said don't leave it at room temp for too long. I left it in my car one day at work and the liquid turned really milky and looked dirty at the end of the day...I threw it out. Keep the bottle in a cup of ice if you have to travel with it.

Don't stress yourself out, it's pretty damn easy really.


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 Post subject: I am so disappointed
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Hi guys (or gals), I am very disappointed and frustrated as nothing went right my first morning on this Liquid Taper process (so here it is 1.2.13 and still at my regular dose). It is now at the point where once I was so hopeful, now I have no belief to this process - it is how I originally doubted. I felt like the drug (if any at all still existed after crushing my pill) was totally diluted and basically just put water under my tougue.

First off, I use a 2mg Subutex pill (small, TINY, round hard pill that doesnt cut well at all). I have tried numerous times to get a different manufactuerer as this pill literally is HORRID for people tapering. But my pharmacy tells me they have no control who supplies them and even though one time in the last 2 years I did receive another "generic" pill that did work wonderfully (he says they must have just had a one time shipment that was different) despite my repeated requests and going to different pharmacies all together, I am back to continuously have to deal with the original, same small, hard, tiny, round pill that doesnt cut to save my life evenly.

At any rate, to reiterate, I am currently at 1mg. I take .50 in morning (around 3/4:00am and the next dose after lunch - usually as early as 11:30 or late as 2p (ish).). Works well enough for me.

Well, where can I start on my first morning mess.

First thing,

Well, I made the solution. I made it using 1- 2mg Subutex pill and drew up using the 1mg syringe - 2mls of water - crushed the pill in a pill crusher separately then poured the "dust" into a glass measuring cup (dust is so fine I didnt trust plastic or any platform this dust could penetrate. This dust dissolves into my fingers it is so fine. The water solution barely made a tiny puddle and the puddle could only be accessible by tipping the measuring cup to the side. - This proved to be my first obstacle trying to draw the water up in the syrnge later.

My daughter for New Years Eve was supposed to spend the night at a friends so I was not worried about anyone accidentally getting into this new "concoction" New Years Eve (my first day was supposed to be 1.1.13). But, she ended up showing up at my house at 12:15am with 5 girls to spend the night at MY house. So I was panicked most of the night thinking one of them might be surging through my fridge and accidentally knock my "concoction" over, drink it or pour it out thinking it was nothing. Now this private ordeal is public as I had to label my jar "do not touch". Only leads to questions and curious fingers I had to worry about. Needless to say, I explained to my daughter to stay out of fridge but could hear them back/forth getting things to eat so that was not fun my first night being on edge.

To make matters worse, this particular night I ate something that didnt agree with me. I ended up tossing and turning with a stomach ache and lower back pain (just minor) but enough to be uncomfortable.

At around 3:30am I decided to just take the first .4 dose and get that over with.

As I suspected I had to get my reading glasses to figure out the syringe and didnt realize that would be such an issue too (morning hours, can't see, sweating, feeling crappy) which brings me to my first issue above..I had to balance the measuring cup between my thigh and counter to keep it slanted enough to form a puddle, then I needed two hands to draw the syrnge. My syringe is not hard but sticks enough you need two hands.

Then I couldnt see where the level off point was? Between my fingers, not really being able to read that well and the fact the syringe kept forming a bubble despite my repeated efforts to squirt it back out and try again.

The syrnge has 3 lines.. I was confused all the sudden which line was the one to judge by? I decided to go by the first line (the first line at bottom of syrnge when it is closed position). There are two other line behind thta one ..still not sure why this syringe has all those lines and why this was a problem at 3:30am for me when I didnt even think about it before.

With this process supposed to be giving us EXACT doses, I was totally confused. I went with what I thought was .4 which here comes the wammy issue - and to be honest, for me, was my #1 doubt about this method - to me, how could you add water to a drug that is supposed to be taken under the toungue without altering the affect by "adding" water - I read all the chemists who seemed confident and trusted them (so I thought) but I still had doubt obviously as after I squirted this under my tougue..After 30min...NOTHING. I mean NOTHING changed in terms of my sweating, my aches, my inability to calm down to go back to sleep. NOTHING>

As I stated earlier, I had a minor stomache ache from eating pizza earlier that night. If I was taking my normal .5 pill portion I would have felt a noticeable relief to some extent come over me. That is another reason I like my morning dose so early..to allow me a couple good hours of sleep which has always proven true despite the lower dose of .5. .5 does give me noticeable relief but not with the .4 water solution. I realize I did go down in dose but .1 mg should not have made such a drastic difference? Instead of .5, I drew up .4 but should have felt something right?

Hope? Didnt you say I would be feeling relief for awhile until I get to the dirty digits of .02(ish)? I was on my very first attempt at .4 and felt absoultey nothing more than I just put a few drops of dirty water under my tougue.

I was so afraid I would have to face the rest of day in withdrawal took another .4 and still felt nothing so ended up just cutting another pill and going back to my usual .5 (quarter of hard pill) and went to sleep like normal. So at end of day if there was any drug in those two draws of .4 (what I thought was .4 anyway) I ended up taking too much instead of tapering.

So now I am back to cutting my damn pills again and no more closer to tapering then last year.

Despite the fact the .4 solution I put in my mouth seemed no more filling then my own saliva, I still managed to have a few drops get past my lower jaw and shoot back over my toungue to back of throat. I refused to swallow and tried to get it back to under my tougue but who knows. I can't believe that if it is true the drug is in there "some where" that you would not need to be concerned when water gets out of your bottom jaw? Any remaining hope this process could work was crushed at that point when water still didnt stay where I put it. For all i know that was the drug thta went to back of my throat. I believe the moment I crushed the pill the drug dissolved to thin air. I truly believe this as the dust has always dissovled so much it will not even make it to my finger. So in water, no different. The water just made it worse..diluting whatever was there if anything was there. I wasted the pill basically in my mind.

I dont mean to discourage any others. Obviously it works great. You all inspired me to even attempt this. I had the calendar on my fridge and the days counted down I was so convinced this would work. But the morning was so many issues it doesnt even seem practical doing it this way.

I minuz well just deal with the cutting and end up just jumping. I truly believe if I could manage to taper .02 mgs down the bare bones of this pill I could do this with little to no discomfort. I truly believe this. But the doses have to be reasonably consistent and here lies the issue. Sincy my pharmacy have their heads up their asses and refuse to source a better pill I am stuck with this chalky, ROUND pill that does not cut.

Even a kindergartner can figure out round pills will not cut well. This medical community still doenst get we NEED TO TAPER. Every time I ask the pharmacist to find me a better pill to cut he looks at me like I have 4 heads? Why would you "need" to cut the pill as isnt it tiny enough"? I had one pharmacist tell me this? He felt it was low enough that I shouldnt need to cut it anymre? What a dumb ass.

Anyway, I am alittle cranky as you may all realize.

Can someone help me. I am so discouraged.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Hi Karen,


I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be.......

I also think, that alot of this is mental, and you need to give yourself a break, relax and not worry so much.

1) It will take a few weeks to get used to the liquid taper, as bioavailabilty is lower with water solution.

2) Get a 1ml syringe with heaps of graduations. ie 0-10, with intervals inbetween that.

3) If yo are stressing too much, find a liquid dose, that makes you feel normal, and gives you sleep

4) in time, you will get better, at measuring, and you will become a professional liquid taperer, with practice.

5) dissolve 1 x 2mg pill in 2 mls of water - that shounds fine. 1ml = 1mg.

You should take .5ml morning, and .5ml at night (space it 12 hours apart)
6) It sounds like your solution bottle is way to big.
You want your solution bottle to be around 20mls in capacity,(buy a small bottle from somewhere)

7) If you are having trouble measuring doses, then it may pay to either.
a) double your water solution (ie 4ml water to 1 2mg tablet)
b) make a weeks supply at once. ie 6mg ( 3 tablets) in 6mls of water)
c) I find .5ml of water to be a good amount of liquid, to dose,

8) just give it at least 2 weeks to adjust to the liquid method. Once you have acclimatized, you won;t have any more issues.


9) JUST REMEMBER THE LIQUID METHOD IS WEAKER THAN THE TABLETS BY AROUND 30%
10) No need to adjust, just know that when you are on 1mg of the liquid method, you are probably on 1.3 mg o f the dry tablets.


HS


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 Post subject: Thanks Hopespring
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Thank you so much. Just read your reply. I agree, I am wayyyyy stressing.

I totally agree with you the liquid is WEAKER however so many others claimed the exact opposite? The sticky from the guy that has the Jesus logo said he was "reminded how stronger the water method was" as it hit him more so then the tablets? So all this time that is why I didnt trust this method as I tried it last year (one time) and same thing happened..only water affect.

Your recommendations make sense to try this out awhile on my current dose to get used to it.

However, I am already using the 1mg syringe which gives me exact doses. I think I did do it right just was confused that morning by over obsessing and doubting this entire process so every little thing "different" I took as a negative.

Bottom line, now that I know it is weaker,,,I am more prepared. BUT, I think the entire process is not my cup of tea. I didnt realize how stressful it is to just keep the solution in fridge. I kept worrying my daughter or one of her friends would tamper with it. And because these pills are so expensive (and so private) I couldnt risk them being spilled or tampered with.

Too lack of control for me.

Question, since you are so knowledeable: I wanted to know what you thought of if it would make sense to move to the tabs at such a low dose for me? My doctor had originally recommended the tabs but I said no because I am using Subutex, not Suboxone. Subutex doesnt come in tabs and I felt going to Suboxone at this low in my taper would be like going backwards adding another drug to the mix. I know they all say Nalexone dosnt do anything but it is actually a drug and it has withdrawals too when you google it. My thought is I am already at 1mg now. Adding another drug at this low dose could make it worse when i finally jump OR do you think otherwise?

Honestly, going to the tabs I could just cut them all the way down to .02 if need be and surely that would be a better solution (for me) in accurate dosing rather than using this liquid fiasco.

The only thing stopping me is I atleast have peace of mind now I only have the Bup in my system. I also like the fact if I ever did need emergency surgery or something I dont have that Nalexone blocking other drugs from pain relief. Doesnt that drug block pain relief from full agaonistg?

I dont abuse this as I am serious about getting off but dont want to take a drug that would not allow pain relief if I actually did need it.

I actually think adding Nalexone should be prohibted. if someone isnt serious about getting off their drug that is their choice and they will pay for it. Trying to "block" people from getting relief is counter productive and in my opinion doesnt work. Like trying to make an alchoholic sick if he drinks..bs. It is a choice that everyone needs to make for themselves, no drug does it for you.

But for what ever reason in USA we dont have tabs for subutex???? Seems like my country wants me on this drug or is makeing it dam difficult to get off.


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 Post subject: Hi HS..one more question
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Hi Hope, on your last reply to me..you said at the end of your post that the liquid method is a good 30% weaker than the tablets. Then you said 1ml of water solution = 1.3mg of tablet? That reads to me that it is .3 stronger, not weaker?

Did you mean the opposite?

Diary of a Quitter stated in his thread (and I have read others say this too) they felt the liquid solution to hit more quickly - stronger then the tablets (or maybe they were using tabs, not sure)? That is why I was going about this "expecting" to feel the dose quicker if anything.

What you say about being weaker, is my experience. Now I have done this twice and believe it is weaker. But to me, too weak.

Question: if you have already responded to this please ignore (reiterating from my last post):

Hope, what do you think if I moved to Suboxone at this late junctior from Subutex so I can take advantage of the Tabs? Subutex doesnt come in tabs where I am and I can't seem to get my pharmacist to source a better pill so I am stuck with this hideous piece is *&&( to work with using Subutex). My doc actually tried to get me to go to the tabs initially when I told her I wanted to taper below 1mg but told her "no" because (to me) switching to a drug that has another drug in it (Nalexone) would be counter productive if my goal is to get off this drug AND experience less side affects and less withdrawal. My entire goal to taper slowly (no more than .02 at a time under 1mg) is hard to do with the round pills but with tabs, I could cut and that would solve my issue. Proabably why most people dont care as much to comment on Liquid Taper method because they have the tabs.

But for Subutex user I can't use those. But if I switched NOW, do you think that would add more side affects and make my withdrawals more complicated?

Atleast now on regular Bup I have only one drug to get rid off. The other scare I have to Suboxone is Im against using any drugs that inhibit pain killers from working as what if I got hit by a car or something and needed pain killers, Nalexone blocks that right?

Unfotunately it just makes it a nightmare with my current pill. At best I will most likely need to drop .50 instead of my recommended .02 at a time. I could easily just stop taking my morning dose or evening - its unfortunate because I know that would be more withdrawal but it would also speed things up. Maybe God is telling me that is the way to go?

I can reasonably get the 4 quarters (not all the time but better at cutting those) but as soon as I try to cut to .25 then it goes to dust or so uneven I get more like .01 or something instead of .4.


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