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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:25 pm 
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I'm taking the Sub films. One 2 mg film twice a day. Because I was having a little w/d and spreading out my doses helps this, I've been taking 2 mg in the morning, then 1 mg midday, 1 mg evening. So, I get them ready for a few days ahead by opening the package, carefully diving one into 2 pieces, and then putting 1 of the 1 mg pieces into its own packet, since I save the old packets for this purpose. I fold the top down to try to seal them in. However, I've noticed that a piece of film that is days old actually feels different than one that's fresh from the pack. It also seems like the fresher ones are stronger. Does anyone know how quickly these films degenerate, or break down? I was hoping to use them to taper. So, I'm planning on cutting them down to tiny pieces and then eventually those pieces will be spread out over a number of days. If the films starts to break down quickly after being opened, this really screws up my plans. I'm also paying out-of-pocket for these things, so the thought of maybe having to use a piece of one and then throw the rest away because it won't stay fresh.....that's NOT acceptable!!!

I'd appreciate any advice on this.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:38 pm 
Laddertipper you are on to something and i havent quite been able to figure out why it happens. I dont take the films. I take namebrand subutex. However, it seems that the medication is always a bit stronger when i first get them from the pharmacy. Its freakin weird!! I've taken years old methadone, oxycodone and morphine and it never lost its strength. This has been an issue so much for me to the point that i get my pharmacy to give me the medication in its original bottle. I get 60 subutex and they just leave them in the bottle with the seal on them. It has helped a little bit but never in all my life have a come across a medication so unique and not necessarily unique in a good way. Im not sure unique is the word but maybe different is the word im looking for. Either way, someway somehow i do believe that the medication expires rather quickly and its 1 of quite a few reasons i switched from generic subutex to namebrand. It use to happen real bad with generic subutex. When i would first get the tablets they were just as smooth looking as they could be and hard as a rock. They also worked fairly well. Well, a week or so would go by and the tablets would look like rats had been nibbling on them. All rough looking an some of them would start to fall apart in the bottle. They would also go from hard as a rock, literally to soft in a weeks time. I know this because i use a pill cutter to cut the tablets in half. Anyways, i dont know how this happens and even if nobody else agree's with it, i truly experience it quite a lot. Its not near as bad with the namebrand though.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:04 pm 
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You ask a really good question, because I know you're not alone in cutting them and saving them for later. But unfortunately I have no idea what the answer is! The only thought that occurred to me would be to call the Suboxone "Here-to-Help" program. Normally they are pretty damn worthless (sorry, it's true), but considering anything is possible, well, maybe, just maybe, they might have an answer for you. (Although I wouldn't hold my breath.) You can reach them at 866-973-HERE.

If you do decide to call them, let us know what they say. If nothing more, it might be good for a laugh. (Boy and I jaded or what?) :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:20 pm 
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lifesaver, here's another good reason to use the name brand not the generic. Did you know that generic drugs legally can be 20% stronger or only 80% as strong as the stated dose? I didn't know this until recently. So, you may be taking '8 mg' but the pill may only have 6.4 mg in it, and that's okay as far as the FDA is concerned. That is not okay in my book. People need to know how much of a substance they are taking.

I've noticed that both the films and the Suboxone tablets break down. The films do more so, and I've been trying to circumvent this by putting pieces back into the packets. It doesn't seem to be good enough. I think I need to wear medical gloves when I handle them because no matter how dry my hands are, I think it takes very little and they start to break down. I love the rats nibbling on the edges description because that's so accurate!! That happened to my (very old) 8 mg tablets. And while my pill cutter could easily halve them when they were fresh, it got to where the cutter would kinda squash and crumble them. I even got a new cutter, because I thought it was the problem.

Here to Help....hmmmmm.....they are interesting. I've called them a number of times for a number of reasons. They are not permitted to give out much specific information. For the most part I "need to ask my doctor". They did tell me that the films are equivalent to the tabs and I should be able to just switch from tabs to the same dose of films, which I thought was weird because this hasn't been most people's experience AND it says in their own physician literature that patients may need to decrease their doses because of the higher bioavailability. Also, they told me (before I had picked up my films) that they were impossible to cut because they were sticky, like teeth whitener strips. :roll: Another lady told me that I should be taking the full contents of the packet immediately and then disposing of the packet. They were not meant to be cut! I told her I thought that was funny, since my doctor's instructions on the script meant I obviously had to cut the strip. Once again, that conversation culminated in me needing to go 'ask my doctor'.

laddetipper

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:25 pm 
In my opinion its all in your head feeling that they are stronger the day your open the package vs a few days later. The mind is a very powerful thing and can make you feel things that arent truly happening. For instance now with the film coupon I get my Rx for the month for 30$ and my dose feels the same everyday but when I was paying over a 100$ if I didnt hold it under my tongue long enough or if I had to much spit build up Id convince myself that I wasted my dose and that Im feeling withdrawal symptoms all because i was so obsessed over getting every last bit since it was so expensive but now that its cheap for the time being and I dont obsess over the $ I feel I get most of my dose with little effort. Oh and thinking they are stronger the day you get them from the pharmacy seems far fetched (not that you feel that way but that it would actualy be stronger) because its not like the pills are made the day you get them from the pharm, they sit around at the pharm for extended periods of time as well before people get there Rx filled. Laddertripper I do the same cut my films and the package is open for a couple days, I just put my open package in a sandwich bag and put it in my pill bottle and make sure to tighten the cap on the bottle very very tight and they are the exact same as the day I opened the package. It does piss me off tho that the films have like a 6 month or even less expiration date printed on them as opposed to the pills that have an expiration date of 1 year. Id bet tho if they are not opened they last indefinitely.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:33 pm 
laddertipper that amazes me and i have never heard of such a thing. I thought they were supposed to be the equivalent to the namebrand. It makes sense though because when i switched from the generic to the name brand i could feel the difference in the strength. The namebrand is definitely stronger and is much more effective. That blows my mind what you said but it doesnt surprise me. I just dont understand that. The side of the generic bottle says it contains 8.64mg's of buprenorphine, i think. I believe thats BS after what you've said because i did always wander how the namebrand was stronger than the generic yet its the same medication and the same amount of mg's. That just doesnt even sound right for them to be able to do that. Thanks again for telling me this!!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:48 pm 
Suboxoned:

The pharmacy i use doesnt carry namebrand subutex so they have to order it the day before i need it filled everytime. The enviroment they keep it in(temperature etc.) is much different than the enviroment im able to keep them in. I know without a doubt they are fresher when i first get them. Its not in my head. I dont obsess over it cuz i truly could care less. I was just pointing out what happens and how i feel. Its not like it gives me some kind of buzz or anything that im able to notice. Its just that when i first get them they give me much more relief compared to when they've been sitting in my room in a sometimes humid enviroment etc. And i only pay $40 for 60 tablets so the price hasnt a thing to do with it for me. Anyways, just my own experience. May not be fact or even your opinion but for me its very true wether you agree or not. Again its not in my head. You can never tell about this company anyways. Their is not telling. For all we know some of this medicine has just been sittin somewhere for god knows how long as you said, i think you said something.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:56 pm 
Sorry one more thing suboxoned. It pretty much use to happen more so than anything when i was taking the generic subutex. The namebrand is "usually" pretty much the same everytime. Although the biggest difference i notice with the name brand when i first get them is the taste. The taste of them is so much stronger and bitter when i first get them compared to how they taste toward the end of the month. When i first pick them up, their dang near so bitter they almost have like a numbing taste to them. Then throughout the month they lose their bitterness and start tasting weird and actually nastier. I prefer them to be really bitter compared to the way they taste toward the end of the month.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:19 pm 
I dont know then maybe its what you said about the environment you keep them in. My house is usualy cool and there is no humidity in the air so that could have something to do with why mine always stay the same. With the tablets I would notice sometimes they get a little "stale" but it never affected potency. I pretty much always feel the same from suboxone and havent noticed a difference yet. I realy hope I can get my shit together to be able afford the methadone clinic so I dont have to worry about these damn film strips and all the other problems Im having with sub. The clinic near me offers suboxone as well and its 300$ a month no matter what dose be it 2mgs or 32mgs so thats a nice thing too, I wouldnt have to get another doctor if I decided I didnt like being on methadone (which I know wont happen hah)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Wow, lifesaver, that's strange you mention the taste of the Subutex, because I remember that so clearly. I was on it during my pregnancy, and it wasn't so easy to take it because it's not very pleasant to a pregnant lady. We can taste and small things incredibly well. I remember the bitterness lessening over the month, and when it did, there was a nastier aftertaste. How weird, because I haven't heard anyone else say this. When I first filled it, I kept asking the pharmacist if she was super-duper certain this was the right thing and was supposed to go under my tongue, because it didn't see right after taking the 'lemon-lime' Suboxone. It was like putting an asprin under my tongue. Since I was pregnant, it always made me gag.

suboxOWNED, you're right about the mind being very powerful. However, this isn't in my head. It's actually a scientifically proven fact that the medication breaks down over time, it's just a question of how fast and how to slow it down. They have to put preservatives in the tabs to make them last as long as they do and the films have little preservative. The preservative is the packet. Despite the preservatives, the tabs still break down. It's quite noticeable when you have very old tabs, like 1 year+ old. I ended up with a bunch of old Sub because I missed doses, got switched to Subutex right after I'd filled my Suboxone, got switched to the 2-mg ones, etc. Those things got old and crumbly. The difference is very obvious when compared to Sub fresh from the pharmacy. Of course, they keep stuff at the pharmacy but they do have to monitor the expiration dates. I wish it was in my head. It's always nice to find out something's just in my head...well, not always nice, sometimes it pisses me off...

You know those things they put in beef jerky to keep it fresh? The things that say 'not for consumption' and were such a baffling addiction to your snack's package when you were a kid? I was thinking of using one of those to keep things fresher. You guys think it would work?

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:57 pm 
Yep suboxonowed i do wish you much luck and success with getting to where you wanna be!! You definitely wont be disappointed with the way methadone works. Its just hard to taper off of. Thats also a very awesome thing that they offer sub for only 300 no matter the mg's etc. I think thats a really good deal. Does the 300 include everything? If so, thats definitely good!! However, i have a feeling methadone will work perfectly for you. Methadone and sub(im not comparing them) has always been the only opiate that made me feel "normal" or sane. They both always gave me a very clear thought process and absolutey no cravings. Methadone more so than sub but both work really well. Not trying to say ones better than the other. Strictly voicing my experience and opinion on the matter. Anyways, goodluck with the path your taking and i wish you much success!!

laddertipper:

Yea subutex has a very distinct taste. Its pretty dang bitter when you first get them but throughout the month they loose their taste and become even nastier. I prefer the bitter taste over the way they taste toward the end of the month. Im use to tasting nasty medicine so the taste really doesnt bother me as bad as some people. Did you take the generic subutex or the namebrand subutex? Like i said, i started with the generic subutex and it didnt work well for me for a number of reasons so i switched to the namebrand. To my surprise, the namebrand and the generic tasted a bit different. The generic was a little bitter but tasted more of a medicine like taste while the namebrand is straight bitter, then toward the end of the month in a way kinda starts tasting like the generic. It loses its bitterness. Anyways, it is what it is i guess. It keeps me safe and alive an thats what matters most to me right now. Im happy with the life i live.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Wow, lifesaver, that's strange you mention the taste of the Subutex, because I remember that so clearly. I was on it during my pregnancy, and it wasn't so easy to take it because it's not very pleasant to a pregnant lady. We can taste and small things incredibly well. I remember the bitterness lessening over the month, and when it did, there was a nastier aftertaste. How weird, because I haven't heard anyone else say this. When I first filled it, I kept asking the pharmacist if she was super-duper certain this was the right thing and was supposed to go under my tongue, because it didn't see right after taking the 'lemon-lime' Suboxone. It was like putting an asprin under my tongue. Since I was pregnant, it always made me gag.

suboxOWNED, you're right about the mind being very powerful. However, this isn't in my head. It's actually a scientifically proven fact that the medication breaks down over time, it's just a question of how fast and how to slow it down. They have to put preservatives in the tabs to make them last as long as they do and the films have little preservative. The preservative is the packet. Despite the preservatives, the tabs still break down. It's quite noticeable when you have very old tabs, like 1 year+ old. I ended up with a bunch of old Sub because I missed doses, got switched to Subutex right after I'd filled my Suboxone, got switched to the 2-mg ones, etc. Those things got old and crumbly. The difference is very obvious when compared to Sub fresh from the pharmacy. Of course, they keep stuff at the pharmacy but they do have to monitor the expiration dates. I wish it was in my head. It's always nice to find out something's just in my head...well, not always nice, sometimes it pisses me off...

You know those things they put in beef jerky to keep it fresh? The things that say 'not for consumption' and were such a baffling addiction to your snack's package when you were a kid? I was thinking of using one of those to keep things fresher. You guys think it would work?

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:12 pm 
Yeah those packets they put in beef jerky are called "dessicant" but im not sure it it would work all though I dont see why it wouldnt. I know meds break down over time but all Im saying is that it doesnt happen usualy nearly as quick as it says on the expiration date. I know what you mean about tablets getting stale and crumbly but that doesnt neccessarily mean that the medication is any less potent, just that pill has changed conistency. When they crumble like that its just because they have absorbed a little moisture from the air. I actualy just dosed my last 2mg chunk of a tablet that I had leftover and it was crumbly like that but it has the same effect all the "new" ones have the pill was just a little stale. I dont like to mention other drugs but as an example I had an ounce of mushrooms in my possession for over 3 years, the day I got them they were cracker dry you could snap them like a twig they were so dry. But after having them for a number of years they absorbed moisture from the air and got a little soft and they would bend instead of snap but they were still just as potent when I ate them 3 years later as the day I got them. Maybe you guys just have a higher room temperature in your house and more humidity than I do and thats why they are degrading faster, my house is usualy on the colder side so it may store them better. I dont feel anything from suboxone at all anyway so as long as Im not feeling withdrawal I consider them working just the same. I cant wait to be done with sub tho and get on the methadone clinic and not have to worry about these strips anymore and also finaly feeling relief from cravings. It just doesnt help my cravings anymore and I have only been on subs a relatively short time, 6 months or so. I cant justify paying all this money to take a med that isnt helping me the way its advertised when a better cheaper alternative is available, going to the clinic everyday will be a hassle but around here you start getting 5 days of take homes a week after as little as 6 months of all clean drug tests and group attendance.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:12 pm 
Psilocybin(shrooms) is a bit different than buprenorphine lol. Although i do know what your saying. Woo them some nasty MF'ers lol. I've done that mess quite a few too many times myself. At shows and festivals. Anyways, thats the past so i'll leave it in the past.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:26 pm 
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Though I now this is an older post I found it via a Search...What I'm surprised at is the number of people whom don't know the difference between Subutex and Suboxone. They are TWO very differemt medications. They are both Name Brands." Hopefylly, there is a lot more of an understanding about this now. If you are taking either to overcome a drug addiction you won't do it with Subutex. Might as well have stayed on what you were on before. Suboxone, on the other hand, has an antagonistic med added to it as well, Naloxone, that will not only make a drug user quite sick if they try to take their "Drug of Choice." But they will not get a "High..Euphoric" feeling either.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:13 pm 
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The active ingredient in both Suboxone and subutex, which is now available only as a generic tab is BUPRENORPHINE. The naloxone that is present in Suboxone films and generic Suboxone tablets is put there as a deterrent for iv abuse. naloxone is poorly absorbed by the membranes in the mouth, and once it is swallowed it's destroyed by the liver at first pass metabolism. so orally the naloxone is inactive. The sickness that you're referring to from mixing opiates of abuse with Suboxone is called precipitated withdrawal and would only happen if you didn't wait long enough after taking heroin, Oxy,vic, etc. before taking the Suboxone, in that case it would still be the buprenorphine causing the precipitated withdrawal sickness, not the naloxone. it's the buprenorphine that would " knock" the opiates off the receptors and cause one to become sick, because the naloxone isn't active orally. if one were to take an opiate after taking Suboxone, all that would happen would be a lack of getting high, not getting sick. This is the way I understand it from everything I've read by Dr. Junig, and others knowledgeable about buprenorphine. I'm going to be changing over to mono product buprenorphine soon, due to cost concerns, and it's not the same thing as still using my drugs of abuse, and I'd hate for others who take subutex or have doctors who'll prescribe it to get the idea that they'd be just abusing another drug by taking their buprenorphine. plain bupe costs far less than Suboxone and is a huge financial help to those who are uninsured amd cannot afford treatment otherwise. it is considered so safe, that it is the preferred formulation for opiate dependent pregnant women to take during pregnancy.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:34 pm 
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Yes, it is cheaper, but you are setting yourself up. I work in the field with actual Pain Med Dr's. I only took them as prescribed after a car accident that nearly killed me. Not once did I abuse them.. But when it came time for me to want to take myself off.. I couldn't.. I was in shock. Than a younger Dr. told me that all of this crap, Subutex included, is just like Heroin. If you want to take an alternative of Heroin and become addicted all over again. Your choice. Not all Dr's are Knowlgable and not all are honest.

And, yes, I have had patients become extremely ill after taking a drug while on Suboxone. What an ignorant blanket statement to make. Yes, it's main function is not to give the high or euphoria, which I did indeed address, but that it can also cause sickness. We are all individual. DUH!! Why do you think some people become much more addicted to substances much more quickly than others? Must be because we are all cut from the same cloth.

Answer me this, are you trying to help people by giving them all the possible outcomes or are you only going b your life's experience there for displaying your Narcissistic tendencies and need to be right at all cost?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:42 pm 
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lady, you seem to be here only to argue. I will not be further sucked into arguments with you. I'm not the only one who's going to reply to your statements here, and being rude and disrespectful to others here is against the forum rules. this is a place of support and exchange of accurate information for addicts, using many different types of recovery, and bickering amongst each other doesn't help anyone. I wish you the best.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:52 pm 
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Haven't been rude. You named called and insulted me first. I'm glad your done with me.. I was hoping you would have been 4 posts ago. You are not of the intellect of whom I wish to speak.. I wish to garner and give help to those whom want it. Not for excusers and abusers and I know the adifference. So far you have not said one thing in your defense. You prove your lack of any intelligence in that you can only attack me Ad Hominem. Smart people whom truly want to be helped and want a compassionate person will find it in me. People like you can keep on keeping on. You don't fool me for a second! Name call all you want! To those whom are afraind of this person and her false accusation.. sorry, i'm a strong person and that's how I defeatead my problems. If you're interested in learning fact vs. fiction ask me anything. If you're going to be someone whom comes out on the defense right off the bat then I immediatley write you off. We'll see whom truly want help and questions answered honestly vs. those whom want their ears tickled. How about we make an agreement, tickle the ears of those like you and leave the people whom are sincerely looking for help to others like myself Now hold true to your promise and don't reply back!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:02 pm 
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Dragonlady, your first post in this thread is filled with inaccuracies. Your second post isn't much better and by your third post, you're just being plain mean.

For the record, Lizzie's post explaining Buprenorphine is completely accurate.

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