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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:20 pm 
I consider suboxone to be by far the hardest drug to discontinue as well as the hardest addiction to recover from. When you kick a drug like fentynal or heroin, it is so intense for a week that you cant even walk to the toilet but after a week or so every day it gets better and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. This is not the case with suboxone, now let me clarify that there are two sides to suboxone addiction, the first side i am refering to is your first few years on subs when you feel good and the medicine can be tapered and discontinued with minimal dicomfort, the second side of suboxone addiction is after you spend 2-5 years on subs(how long it takes you to reach your second stage of sub addiction depends on your health and your addiction before suboxone) the second stage of suboxone addiction is very very different than the first stage. You enter the second stage of suboxone addiction when you begin to feel depressed lethargic and lose your sexual functions. At this point tapering suboxone is much more dificult and when you finaly get to .25 mg and are ready to jump, you will spend the next year and posibly much much longer in a state of mild opiat witdrawl, during this year or more of mild opiat withdrawl you dont feel better day after day, there is no light at the tunnel that you can see. Your not gunna make it through that year or more od dysfuntion if you have responsabilitys in life, it is just not compatible with an adult lifestyle. Dr j states that 96-99% of suboxone addicts who attempt to stop will simply fail. Regular opiats wear off after a few hours so between doses and when you sleep your recepters go back to a normal state so your brain still has a point of referance to what a normal state is when you stop. With a opiat like suboxone that lasts a few days instead of a few hours your recepters are NEVER in a normal state even when you sleep 8 hours at night your always heavily medicated. this is why it takes so much longer for your brain to find its way back to normalcy with a long acting opiat like sub. Obviosly the best solution would be to use suboxon to get through a bad detox and stop before you become addicted, but our doctors are listening to suboxone reps so chances are your doctor has absorbed nothing but MISINFORMATION and has no idea what suboxone addiction is. So if your goal is to be opiate free but your on suboxone for more than a year or so, i realy truely feel for you because you have been screwed over so bad and you probably have no clue yet. This information is for people who wanted to get off opiats completely but used suboxone long term because they listend to a doctor. If you want to ever be opiat free after long term suboxone but cant spend a year or more in a dysfuntional state your gunna have to spend a year on normal opiats. The best thing to do is tapper down low on suboxone for a few monthes, once ur on 1mg switch over to a normal opiat, have a loved one dull out the med for you, remember the point of doing this is to allow your brain some time to not be totaly saturated 100% of the time but still be able to function and keep up with life. Use instant release opiats not time released opiats because your trying to allow your brain to spend some time unsaturated your using the short acting opiates to keep your life together during this time....after about a year of normal opiat use you will be back to where a normal opiat addict is, your addicted but your brain is not being saturated 100% of the time the way a suboxone addicted brain is. Now its time to go to a in patient rehab and detox, after a month you will feel good and that is very very doable. Being sick for a year or more after suboxone and maintaining a career and relationships and sobriety is simply not posible.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:45 pm 
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In withdrawal for over a year??? I don't even see how this could possibly be true. I hate coming here and reading this kind of stuff. It makes me not even want to log on anymore.

Before you believe this please check your facts first people.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:03 pm 
Being in withdrawl for a year or more is not only possible but with suboxone if you stay on long term it is almost a for sure thing. Please please please check out some other forums there are a gagillian people on there who tried to quit suboxone and had to go back because the withdrawl does last so long and they have families and carees. this form is very hevily moderated by people who are on suboxone and are typicaly not ok with discussing the realitys of suboxone addiction they have strong personal feelings about suboxone and will chase away anybody who feels differantly. You will find that suboxone withdrawl is openly discused in other forums but not here, people get chased away from this forum by townspeople with torches and pitchforks for suggseting that the world is round and not flat. Believe it!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Pretty sure I've heard this one before; why not just come out and say that subsux.com is a 'better' board for people who have a negative view of long-term buprenorphine...I haven't kept up so muchy lately but a few of the long time regular posters/members and possibly moderators these days are either tapering buprenorphine or have long ago, their only flaw is that they are not vehemently opposed to the methods of recovery other individuals and members here choose. Your post isn't even drawing from any personal miserable experience with buprenorphine that I can see, it's making blanket statements not backed up by fact, studys or even biased real life information information.

T

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Part of me just wants to delete such a absurd post but I think the members here can decipher between the truth and talk that is gathered from all over the internet. You choose to believe this stuff and that's fine with me. Just don't start overdoing it with myths mistaken for facts. This is only your opinion, nothing you said is based on facts or you would have posted the source of them. Repeating posts from other internet sites does not make it a fact.

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Edit: This new member was removed for breaking the rules of this forum. By bashing moderators (this post and all the rest he posted) he made a self fulfilled prophecy. Any questions, please PM any moderator. I also edited my post because it was posted in anger. Looking at it again I realized you don't need to read negative posts from a moderator. My apologies.

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Last edited by rule62 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:02 pm 
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Sounds like low t man. Lol. The whole "after you get to the second phase depending on blah blah blah, you start to feel tired all the time, depressed, and lose sexual functions.... I'm retarded for real." part of your post is like a poster caption for opiate induced low t. As for the women.... Idk. But that's what happens to ALL men on long term suboxone. Not most. All.


This guy is still crazy. Phase one? Phase 2?cmon!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Although. I do have to agree that paws can't last a really long time.

It still doesn't mean that anything in his post is correct to my knowledge.

I have stopped suboxone and I wasn't in withdrawal for years. So it's not a promise.

I don't understand why folks need to post this stuff here.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:50 pm 
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I do believe there is some truth to this/her post.. Many have claimed to be in some form of withdrawal for a year, I believe he's referring to PAWS...You don't necessarily have to be in pshycal withdrawals but the mental withdrawals can last such a long time that people cave in.

One thing I disagree with is using instant release opiates..If any sub user is going to use an opiate they are better off with time release ones, because switching to instant release ones the withdrawals will come on much quicker and make it unbearable, surely nobody wants to be in sub withdrawals and opiate withdrawals at the same time, so better bet is to use time/extended release ones...Also since sub has a long half life it will make for a better transition with time release ones in the sense it will make you stabilize quicker without much withdrawals..I don't think its plausible to suddenly switch to instant release medication from long half life ones.. Also the high instant release give make it that much harder to get off, you don't need to get high, if your using any opiate to get by sub withdrawals then all you need is something to make it bearable pshycally, it will also help to get off then instant release ones.

I don't believe you need to go inpatient to get off short acting opiates, you can do a taper and then use comfort meds. This all if you someone wants to that route and my opinion of which SAOs to use.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:53 pm 
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When people or doctors claim majority will fail after getting off subs I don't believe that is a fact, perhaps those people or doctors have given up on being free, perhaps they struggled to get off any opiates so assume everybody else has to be like them too...I know tons of methadone users who got off methadone and are clean for several years...I think with sub since its sticky it makes people more prone to relapse when they get off, because of the PAWS affect.. Methadone seems to have less PAWS compared to suboxone PAWS, well according to my research. I think depression post-sub is more brutal then post-methadone depression IMHO.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:57 pm 
movie maker, it sounds to me like you almost made it.....you quit taking suboxone and you had to go back cuz you werent feeling better after such a long time. i think you were almost there. If you stop using suboxone again the same thing is gunna happen your gunna get sick and its gunna go on for a long time but im telling you from personal experience that you feel better at about 1 year after stopping and you were almost there man....its woth trying again and waiting a year this time because things do get dramticaly better at that point


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:11 pm 
icarus you are an ineligent guy, but with the whole instant release/controled released opiat issue, i think o.p. is suggesting using instant release over time release during that year because the whole point of going back to opiates for a year is to allow the brain to be some sort of withdrawl at night and in between daytime doses but still be able to work keep up with family ect, the long term paws caused by suboxone is because your brain is ALWAYS saturated and then boom no saturation, if you use time released opiats during that year it would mimic the constant saturation of suboxone and the whole point is to not be constantly saturaded during that year so its not such a shock when you stop completely......obviosly thats not gunna be a great year but its not suppose to be, your only taking it to keep up with stuff during the day wile you wait a year for your brain to heal.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Why not just stay on suboxone rather than going through all of that?

Taking short acting opiates especially to TRY and get off suboxone is absolutely crazy. You would risk relapse just to make things slightly easier? What you explained doesn't even sound easier!

You aren't looking at the little things either! Are you going to buy these opiates illegally? From who? What if they don't have them? Will you be able to just stop one day?

Why even start suboxone to begin with if you can take opiates and then just stop when you want to?


None of it makes any sense.

It defeats the entire purpose of taking suboxone long term. If you had any sort of good/strong recovery or if you have tried to change your life at all.... I don't think this would even be close to an option.




Maybe im wrong. Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:58 pm 
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You also post like suboxone causes crazy amounts of damage that other opiates won't cause.

Just more of the hearsay train rearing it's ugly head again.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:21 pm 
Movie maker, at least for me, if the ultimate goal is to be opiat free and/or if suboxone is not cutting it anymore and it's no longer makeing you happy than you have every reason In the world to do whatever it takes to be happy again some people can make it through that year without opiats but others can't......obviosly if you can't get the opiats from a doctor your in a bind, but pretty much anybody with knowlege about how the medical industry works can go to a pain management clinic and get a generous scrip....for me it was all worth it, and you got so close last time that I'm sure you could get off opiats


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:55 pm 
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soberonsuboxone wrote:
i think o.p. is suggesting using instant release over time release during that year because the whole point of going back to opiates for a year is to allow the brain to be some sort of withdrawl at night and in between daytime doses but still be able to work keep up with family ect, the long term paws caused by suboxone is because your brain is ALWAYS saturated and then boom no saturation,


Dude...I'm amazed at how well you understood exactly what the op was saying. It's almost as if you are the same person.... :D :D


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Case and point ;-)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:44 pm 
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And maybe I could.

But.

I refuse to live in active addiction to get there.
Aka scamming doctors, buying drugs, taking my DOC to fix a problem caused by my DOC.

That's all.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Time release opiates still have a much shorter half life then suboxone or methadone half life, it will still do the same job as instant release but probably more better in regards to stabilization and comfort. You can always use instance release 3 months after using time release. The half life of sub is long so to switch suddenly to instance release will make withdrawal unbearable, don't forget the effects of instance release opiates wear off quickly too...Overall its not a bad plan at all.

Before using sub many folks did not have knowledge of sub and its withdrawals, specially duration of them and PAWS, but now they do there is every chance this method can work, it's a whole different ball game now..Using full agonists prior to sub was about getting high, copying with withdrawals etc but now people have knowledge of sub withdrawals it makes SAOs look a solution rather then a problem...This time your only using SAO to purge out the suboxone, that is the goal and aim, when you have that in mind and know the affects of suboxone it only gives you more determination to use SAO for this purpose, before we did not have a clue about sub withdrawals so were using SAOs thinking this is bad as it gets, now our mindset has changed and this method is certainly not a bad shout.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:16 pm 
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I do believe that because your brain is constantly saturated, it contributs to the length of sub wd.but i dont believe going back to your doc or or any other opiates make things easier, i believe it wil actually make things harder. ive tried that before going from subs to opiates back to subs. seems it just raises your tolorance even morw and makes things worse


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:22 pm 
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Many have gotten off subs and methadone using this method..It all comes to down to choice and how we think. If you have determination to get clean and sole aim for ridding subs then SAOs work well. You just need a low dose or enough to function, have someone dispense them to you, if you think tolerance will go up or fear of re-addiction then you are not ready to get clean or do not chose to, simple as that.. Using SAOs for 8 months or so is better then going through withdrawals/PAWS for that long. I personally know a few who tried this method and claimed it fast forwarded then sub symptoms except they were covering it with SAOs, so in hindsight it can work if you let it. You can then taper off the SAOs with clonidine and few benzos, your only likely to feel symptoms less in duration then long half life opioids.


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