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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:36 pm 
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After being on suboxone for 4 years, i have been self medicating without a doctor. i know, but the groups they forced me to KILLED ME. ive been clean the last 3 of 4 years, no desire to use. stopped my doc 2 years ago.

I started on 8mg per day, but used it between dope for the first year. i got really in to the program with 2 doses a day at 4mg each at the 1 year mark.

I tapered down to 2mg 2x per day and it was perfect. i started a business, enjoyed life, etc... I HAVE NEVER BEEN DEPRESSED IN MY WHOLE LIFE, not even for a day. i have a great life, no stress, NOTHING! starting 2 weeks ago i noticed lower energy and like a truck, 3 days ago i felt like i was withdrawling. Today i feel no physical effects but i feel dead in the brain.

I am 99% certain it is the suboxone, as i have been taking tests for everything else, i have not had any other changes in my life. This is the worst feeling in teh world, no joy from anything, its worse inbetween doses but it may be placebo. I raised from 2mg to 3mg yesterday, still no effect.

I recently sourced some subutex to try as well, but its not here yet. I take the suboxone strips, i do have zubsolve available to me but i have avoided it.

I have not missed a dose or played around at all with my dosages until after this started. Yesterday i timed out when i felt really bad, i took my sub EXACTLY 1 hour later, on the dot i got this body rush sensation (only took .5mg extra here) and it felt like i took a xanax, i could sit and stare at a wall for hours with no happiness, no sadness, it came on with the suboxone.

I was ready for lifelong suboxone treatment, i have turned my life 100% around. now i fear i have to jump and while i am in no way sucidal if this continues i fear what may happen. I am only sad about being sad, nothing in particular. i can just tell there are no endorphins being released, or atleast very few. nothing gives me joy anymore.

also sometimes when i went to eat food i would get REPULSED the second i put it near my mouth. my GF said i looked pale as well. this could be unrealted but i doubt it is.


please help. also i will say i did have a batch of suboxone where i am unsure of its authenticity, they seemed to be ok though, i stopped those 3 days ago, no improvement YET.

anybody that can help, please do! i also plan to get back to a doctor but my past experience shows most know nothing about the drug they prescribe in my area.

i will try anything to fix this without jumping off. tapering at this point is impossible, its just prolonging this madness. i can raise to whatever is needed or change to whatever.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:49 pm 
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Hi! Welcome! I am not a doctor but my advice is to give it a few more days to make sure it was not the subs with the unkown origin causing the problem. Suppose there was no suboxone in there at all? You really don't know. Are you now taking suboxone films in the box from the pharmaceutical company? Please keep us posted about how you are feeling!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:01 pm 
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Hi Robby Welcome to the forum.

Depression is caused by all sorts of things. Chemical brain issues, life events. Medication.
If you have not been depressed at all while you were on suboxone for the 3 years. And out of the blue 2 weeks ago, you are feeling a depressed. It could be 1 of two things.
One, the bogus subs that you were on is putting you in withdraws and I would give yourself some time for the real suboxone to kick in and level out.

Or Two, you are depressed from some life event and might want to consider counseling , anti depressants or going back to a sub doctor to talk with them.

I guess if it were me, I would start taking my suboxone at the same time every day and same dose and not mess around with my dose by taking it at different time during the day and increasing the decreasing my dose , or flip flopping between subutex and subxone. Stay on one med . Your body needs to level out on a dose . wherever that may be. Pick a dose and stick to that.

Give yourself at least 10 days on a legit dose of suboxone. By then your body should adjust to the dose and then you can see if you are "actually depressed" And go from there.
I personally take an anti depressant with my subs and it does wonders for my depression.

Keep posting about how you are doing. We are all here to help!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:38 pm 
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Thank you both for the replies!

first off, i dont know the suboxone was bogus, i was on it for a month or so, it definately worked but my fear is some analog of bupe. or who knows, but i just changed back and this started a day after, precipitated withdrawls from some other non bupe partial agonist? or just dumb luck. but i will be waiting this out and i do hope it will clear up. i will also post anything i figure out.

i am 99% positive it is not me, i know crazy people say this, so maybe i am but i have not been until recently atleast. i run a business, i am self motivated, have a great home family life (so i think), and now i feel how i did between using drugs. and it is ALWAYS worse between my doses but that may be placeobo as really im trying most of the day to cheer up. it switched on a dime, so that is why i am less likely to think of normal physiological depression, i definitely feel it has something to do with the suboxone and my dosage, but im sure there are many who may know better than myself.

So i am currently 1. using only the pharmacy purchased suboxone films (8mg/2mg), i am ALWAYS on a time scheduled, i have been for 3 years, always when i wake up and midnight. and i wake up about noon. so 12 hours apart give or take an hour.

So i guess i have a few questions for anybody who knows:

1. is this something that is known to happen randomly to people? i have heard one story before and they said switching to subutex helped
2. could the naloxone be effecting me somehow? i know the science behind it, i understand the binding efficiency of bupe is higher than naloxone but im not sure if there is something else to it.
3. IF this does not resolve in a few days, is it possible i have to raise my dose? i have no cravings for drugs AT ALL, but i feel this is just a step backwards.
4. somebody said doses below or near the ceiling can screw with you, over time as your body builds a tolerance, that is why i think i may need to raise more than .25 mg, is this something anybody can advise on? i dont want to do it unless i absolutely have to.


THANK YOU ALL! very few people can help here in my area. and for now lets just assume its not some other change in my mind, im doing all i can to resolve those other issues, cutting out caffine, exercise, changing diet, etc... so i am not oblivious to other causes, its easy to blame a pill. But from what i have seen suboxone SHOULD act as an anti depressant, it just feels like the dopamine is not being produced AT ALL. not by the suboxone necessarily but by anything i do at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:33 pm 
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I cried for the first time in 5 months today and the only thing different is I started taking suboxone yesterday. Had been on methadone for 4 months, 50 mg, but stopped on Sunday, took the sub yesterday and have felt like absolute crap ever since. I already miss the methadone. I'm just wondering in sub doesn't trigger depression in some of us.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:18 pm 
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second edit:

copied my reply over to your thread.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:24 pm 
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So an update, i am feeling better, but this whole mess really made me start thinking about my mental state again and i can only focus now on how i feel. I feel i am back to normal but while its the normal i am used to over the last 4 years its more obvious how negative some portions are. i have taken a log and mood correlates with the dosing in the morning but after that its all overt he board, nothing with the sub dosing seems to play a role in mood after that first dose of 2. and even then it may not improve mood its just a correlation which i dont like making.

The fatigue is horrible, i wake up at noon and am nodding out by 3pm, but i can still be alert. this has happened for al ong time i just have not cared until now seeing it is a cause for asl ot of issues. As i said i work all day, own a business, have a great family life, and over the last year Ive just gotten more and more tired during the day after sleeping 9+ hours a night. the mood swings are bad, i have highs and lows back to back. constant very minor droning headaches, no sex drive AT ALL, worse than normal even. while the depression came on suddenly the fatigue and lack of motivation were a bit more progressive over a couple months.


I think it may be Low testosterone, im very young still (well early 20s), and i have only been on sub about 4 years.

My tests have not came back, and i may not know for awhile, low t was tested for. i will update if this is the case, and if it is i will take medication to raise levels and report. id also love to hear any input on what you all may think about this. can low testosterone cause fits of depression lasting for days and ups and downs throughout the day?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:28 pm 
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Welcome Robbyb1877. I hope that you get to the bottom of your mood problems. There are a number of things that could be going on: you could be anemic, thyroid issues or as you suggested, testosterone imbalance, and many more esoteric medical problems that am unaware of. I had an episode of major depression about two years after I started suboxone and spent three weeks in partial day hospitalization for my depression. Like you said, you are a young man and should not feel down all the time and lacking energy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:11 am 
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thanks for the support!

But i must ask, Did you find the cause of yours? if its personal that is no problem but i am curious if it was related to the bupe or not and if it went away with time or treatment. i know we all differ a lot but its just another thing i can consider when figuring out what to do. I hear a lot of defense against suboxone being the cause of about anything but it seems it does have some major side effects we tend to overlook.


it seems us patients LOVE to blame the pills and doctors will do anything not to blame the pills/medication. so i feel the truth is probably in the middle in most cases.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:50 am 
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The comment about doctors doing anything to 'not blame the pills' is insulting, and ridiculous. Why would I protect a bad pill? Doctors do not make money for prescribing certain medications; that has been illegal for decades (the Sunshine Act from 7 years ago made it illegal for pharmaceutical reps to give a cup or pen to a doc! but the 'kickbacks' that idiots write about have never been legal-- and I've never heard of a case over the past 30 years).

I find it ridiculous as well that you have the people who studied these medications, and learned to read scientific studies and evaluate them critically, for 4 years in college, 4 years in med school, 4+ years in residency, and then however many years in practice. But you take someone who rants on the internet because he thinks drug companies conspire to kill him--- and you decide the answer is in the MIDDLE?!

Crazy.

Major depressive disorder is one of the most common psychiatric illnesses. It affects about 20% of the population at some point, and includes either a feeling of sadness OR a loss of pleasure in things. If your depression came from buprenorphine, where did everyone else's come from-- all the other people having THEIR first episode?

Frankly, depression is connected to everything else. A person taking an occasion illegally-obtained alprazolam tablet has a higher risk for depression than someone else-- as does a person treating himself for addiction, and skipping the counseling recommended for treatment. You've heard the saying, a man who acts as his own attorney has a fool for a lawyer? You can also say a person who acts as his own addiction doctor has a junkie for his physcian. THAT person also has a higher risk of depression. Why? Because unless he is a sociopath, he knows, on some level, that he is breaking the law, and ignoring the advice of his doctor. If he truly believes he knows more about 'what he needs' than his doctor-- a person with much, much more experience, and with the benefit of an unbiased view of the patient-- then I have to wonder if he has a bit of grandiosity as well-- which also puts him at higher risk of depression.

Finally, taking too low of a dose of buprenorphine turns it into an agonist. Not because of changing tolerance-- but because of the chemical properties of partial agonists. Anyone properly tapering off buprenorphine knows that he/she will become depressed during the process. That ALWAYS happens-- and is why people should only start lowering their dose when any depressive symptoms are under good control.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:46 am 
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Never did pin down an exact cause for my depression, and I don't think that it was related to buprenorphine. I can speculate that deaths of several family members and having friends that were takers and didn't give much in our relationships contributed to depression. I also had job burnout. But , in my opinion, the most important thing is to develop a recovery plan for depression. Forcing yourself to stay involved in life and relationships even when you don't want to, getting enough sleep and physical activity were important for me. It was difficult for me to accept that I was depressed because I thought depression was being suicidal, being in crisis all of the time and not functioning. I was working, paying my bills and spending time with friends. It was just that I was disengaged. I felt like I was already dead and that I was just carrying a corpse around. I wasn't communicating with other people and everyday was long and unpleasant. It was something like the mental aspects of withdrawal. Most of the time I suffered and if I could get distracted for a few minutes,I felt fortunate. Depression is common but mental health professional can help. I recovered from depression and now can read a book and understand it. I can go out to dinner or a movie with friends and enjoy it. I have gotten back to the hobbies that I enjoyed for most of my life. For me depression was more debilitating and a tougher enemy that addiction. That may not be so for you or many others. Just get help for depression if you need it. Life can be better.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:51 am 
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Have you had your testosterone levels checked at all? Might be worth investigating. There aren't many studies looking into buprenorphine in particular other than a couple which showed it caused fewer problems than methadone. But there's been a lot of anecdotal reports on these forums over the years. The theme seems to be that it occurs mostly with people who have been on Suboxone for a significant amount of time - ie years.

I was diagnosed with low T after 2 or 3 years on 12mg Suboxone a day. I was taking 6mg morning and 6mg evening. When those test results came back, I took matters into my own hands and cut out my evening dose, quit smoking and started doing weights. Within a month my levels were in the normal range, but they were still a bit low for someone my age.

There's also a general lack of libido which occurs on higher doses of buprenorphine, though I'm unsure if that's related to hormones.

And yeah, people can get depressed. Often for no reason. If you're concerned it's from the Suboxone, you could always trial going off it. I know that for me, I associated my depression with Suboxone for a long time. So I went off it for a couple of years, and I was still just as prone to depression. Mental illness sucks.


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