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 Post subject: Re: Hoarding
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:56 pm 
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runner wrote:
I wonder if anyone can speak about whether Ultram is effective (potent) enough to stave-off opiate w/d temporarily- this is an important question for me. Thx


I know that taking too many at one time can actually put a bupe-dependent person into a freaky withdrawal kind of thing (couldn't believe it until it happened to me). It's warned right on the information pamphlet. But, it was a freaky, short-lived episode. Intense w/d symptoms that subsided with no further bupe. But, I was taking 12mg at the time. So, there was probably too much bupe to knock off all receptors (????).

I can't actually answer your question. But, I did relapse off Sub onto a combination of Ultram and Vicodin (verses my typical oxy). It held me over until I got my oxy. Why won't your psychiatrist write for oxy? (Is it because he's from the "ultram/tramadol's not an opiate" camp?) Whatever his reason, I believe that any doctor can write for an emergency 72-hour supply of Suboxone. That would get you a lot further than an ultram script. IMO if the ultram works on its own, you're talking a whole lot of ultram!


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 Post subject: changing sub doctor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:48 pm 
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The more I read your posts, the more I despise this doctor. He doesn't deserve to be called "Doctor".

It's frustrating because you have insurance. He knows he is the only sub dr. around so he is cashing in on it. Monster.

Can't blame you for hoarding. Maybe you can find a doctor to prescribe oxy until you can find further help.

This is a difficult situation but everything has to work out for you because the good Lord knows you are really trying to do the right thing.

Love & Hope, queenie


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:17 pm 
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This is a really good thread with several good topics that have tied into it. I suppose I will put in my .02 cents. First, I think there is nothing wrong with hoarding so long as you don't divert. My current doctor is concerned about diversion and I had told her initially that A) I am an addict and I don't like to share a drug in short supply and B) If I ever used less than prescribed and had leftovers, I would probably put them away just in case something happened to her. She said her partner could prescribe suboxone in the event anything happened and I thought that was cool. At least I don't have to wonder what would happen if she died or was in an accident or whatever since she already told me how it would be handled. How cool is that?

My doctor specifically told me on the first visit that the only reason she would remove anyone from the program was if they were caught diverting. She specifically said she would NOT kick you out for relapsing. That really took some unnecessary pressure away. Most addicts have anxiety problems and fearing you will have your primary tool for recovery removed if you relapse can be enough to make an addict relapse to begin with. I totally agree with what has been said by others in that removing suboxone from someone who made a mistake and relapsed is the WORST thing you could do to them. I feel totally SAFE with my doctor and even if I screwed up and took more than I was supposed to or something else happened, I am pretty confident that she would make sure I was taken care of. She would probably make me go to NA meetings or something if I did that, but she wouldn't kick me out. For her, this is 100% a medical condition and a health concern. I am confident that she cares about my overall health in a very genuine and caring way. I love her.

She is night and day from my old doctor who was a whack job! He was SUPER picky about appointment dates and said any sub patient who re-scheduled his/her appointment meant they relapsed so if they rescheduled for later he would make sure they ran out of sub by putting them more than a week out. BRILLIANT! He did pill counts and would empty the pills into his nasty dirty HANDS after touching the phone and the keyboard and your URINE and then put them back into the bottle. He was disgusting. He did wear gloves when handling the urine but still....GROSS! He often was so busy talking about himself that he would write the script wrong. I learned the hard way when I got to the RX and they were 2mg instead of 8mg pills. He refused to call them in and fix it and suboxone CAN be called in. You don't HAVE to have a paper script. He would say he would do it the next day. Well that's great but since you have to wait till the last day to get the script with him, that puts you a day behind. Grrrrrrrrr. He did this more than once and his reasoning for not helping you was that YOU are supposed to ensure the script is correct before leaving the office. I once had to reschedule because my cousin died (I only ever rescheduled the once). He was the biggest jerk in the world about it. I had to beg for a new appointment PRIOR to running out of sub and even had to offer to bring him dinner to do it. I did in fact end up having to bring him Thai food to get my appointment. I could go on because there are at least another 10-15 stories just like this. And just a note.....I only relapsed the very 1st month I was on it and I was honest with him about it to begin with. After that, all my UA's were clean, pill counts correct, I was on time for all appts., etc. etc. etc. Imagine how he treated the patients who were actually struggling!

I know this is getting WAY too long. I do think for some doctors, they are so fearful of the DEA and I don't blame them. Agencies like this that oversee other very different agencies can be too harsh and not understand the predicament of the doctor. While I think the DEA is necessary for some of these whack jobs, for others like my doctor, it just interferes with how she practices medicine since she is forced to think about the DEA ABOVE what might be best for me and my pocket book and my health.

The sad thing is that IF my doctor would take insurance, I could stay with her. But since she doesn't, as soon as there is a sub doc in my area I will have to switch to one that does. The expense of this is getting ridiculous.

Cherie

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 Post subject: Re: changing sub doctor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:08 pm 
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queenie1959 wrote:
The more I read your posts, the more I despise this doctor. He doesn't deserve to be called "Doctor".

Queenie, you are so passionate. I love it. I want to assure you that the "cash only" doc was my FIRST Suboxone doctor. I have another one now. My new doctor (I'm now on 2 of the 3 in our area) is the one who charges to pick up scripts when there's no appointment, discharges patients who relapse, and refuses to allow a patient one single tablet beyond their appointment time (and I mean time. If you dose twice a day, you get the morning tablet, not the afternoon one). As frustrating as these things are, at least I can afford to be on Sub. I never could have remained on Sub for over a year if I had to pay cash for it. My copay for the visit and for the Suboxone is enough of a financial burden on my family.


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 Post subject: Re: Hoarding
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:42 pm 
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runner wrote:
I may be about to switch sub docs because I don't have complete faith in my current one. I had a fairly negative recent psychological evaluation & am expecting I might be booted next visit. So yea, you'd better believe I've been hoarding sub.

I count my sub-pills daily just like I did my oxy. And I've been through sub w/d. I know one guy whose doctor up and died. It's
pretty scary to think about a forced jump from 8,12,16mg or whatever.....I don't know anyone who doesn't have some pre-occupation with this, and I think it hinders recovery. What are you supposed to do if your boss tells you that you have to fly out of town for a week the day before your sub appt and you have one pill?

That's one things that's rough about sub- we are tied to it like a heart-lung machine. I could do much better things with the time I spend worrying about my next sub appt. Really I think the docs should allow us to have several extra tablets in case of that flat tire or other emergency that prevents getting the refill.

Personally, I can stretch one 8-2 for about 8 days to keep from getting sick. And yes, since things are "up in the air" I'm hoarding like crazy. I think it could easily take 4-6 weeks to get with a new doc, and I'm sure a lot of people have been dropped on their heads. I mentioned this to my psych, and he said he'd RX Ultram to me if I something happened, which I hope would help.

At one point, my psych carried me over a missed sub appt with 3x Norco 10/325 and I didn't get sick. I wonder if anyone can speak about whether Ultram is effective (potent) enough to stave-off opiate w/d temporarily- this is an important question for me.

Thx


I quoted this because this is what we all go through and or might have to go through being on Sub.
I thought it deserved a second chance to be read.


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 Post subject: I agree
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Oh yes my friend, I worry about those things. Last week when my appt. was up in the air, I went into depression because I was scared to get sick. I worry about something happening too. I think about a lot of things. Do you think about this? Will I go thru WD if my doc tapers me and I mess up & take more without telling the doc & then run out anyway. How about this : I left the pharmacy and I had to go to the supermarket before going home. What if I lose my rx. I kept checking while I was food shopping to make sure it was still in my pocket. I had no bag with me so I put it in a big pocket I have. You are not alone. Yes, we are tied to subs but it's better subs than other stuff.

Let's try to relax a little and think positive. Nothing is going to happen & we will be clean soon with very little withdrawal.

Sounds good right? You never know. It doesn't have to be all bad.

Let's give each other a pat on the back & keep helping each other on this site. Subs & this forum has saved my butt.

Love & Hope, Queenie


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 Post subject: Re: Hoarding
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:53 pm 
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[quote="runner"

At one point, my psych carried me over a missed sub appt with 3x Norco 10/325 and I didn't get sick. I wonder if anyone can speak about whether Ultram is effective (potent) enough to stave-off opiate w/d temporarily- this is an important question for me.

Thx[/quote]


I know this is late..but I was just reading through this post. When I saw the word ULTRAM, I got chills. This is what got my addiction going. I was totally addicted to Ultram, that I was prescribed for horrible cramps - and several small surgies and biopsies on my cervix. Ultram - or tramadol, seemed to have the same effects as Vic's but I had no idea what I was taking was addictive. Or maybe I just didn't know I was an addict. Anyway - long story made short - I had to take the tramadol for 10 days in a row due to pain and the 11th day I experienced WD's. The 11thday was also my BDay and I was having a party and didn't wanna be sick. I knew that more opiates would "help". So, all I could get my hands on was some H. This was the 1st day of my almost year long H run started. I hope you didn't have to start taking ultram!

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 Post subject: Hoarding,
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:59 pm 
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Hi everyone, this is my 1st post. I've been here reading posts on this great web site for 2 months. That's how long I've been on subs. Geez...I've been hoarding like crazy. My sub Dr. is very tight with the subs. I've been seeing him every 2 weeks and he doesn't give not one extra. God forbid I miss my appt. or he called in sick, I'd be screwed. My Dr. thinks that I'm taking 10mg a day. I'm already down to 2.5gm. I really want to stop the suboxone so I told my Dr. that next visit I'll go down to 6. By then hopefully I'll be down to 2 or under. Then I should have plenty if anything goes wrong. No I don't feel bad "Lying" to my Dr. He's making plenty off me, or should I say off my insurance company. I pay a co-payment of $15 and $15 for the prescription. Yes, I'm lucky.
By the way, I hear so many horror stories about withdrawing from subs. So far I have been able to go from starting at 12gms two months ago to 2.5gms with hardly any withdrawals. Just a couple of days where I had the sweats for about 15-20 minutes 2-3 times a day. I've kind of been doing it my own way...Every 3-5 days I take a drop less. Tomorrow will be 4 days at 2.5 and I'm going to try 2.25. I know it's supposed to get harder with the lower the doses. Maybe it's been easy for me so far because I have only been on them for 2 months? Anyway I wish everyone the very best.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:05 am 
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Hi messed up - welcome to the forum; I'm glad you finally posted. Please don't listen to the crazy-ass horror stories. Sub withdrawal, based on personal experiences here on this forum, are no where near how bad withdrawals from full agonists are. Keep that in mind. With that said, the faster the taper, the more discomfort the person will likely have. For that reason I would suggest you slow down a bit before jumping off. Also, are you aware of the recent studies that link short term only treatment with sub to a very high rate of relapse? Why are you wanting to go off sub so very quickly? Is it worth relapsing, considering how dangerous relapses can be? Sorry if I'm being blunt about this, but addiction takes too many lives. Why risk it when we can just take a pill once a day and be just fine? That's my take on it anyway.

Again, welcome to the forum. Maybe when you're ready you can start a new post and tell us more about yourself (if you haven't done so already).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:09 pm 
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wow i know no one has posted on this thread for over a month but this really hit home. i dont hoard subs alot but i do always keep a couple extra. i have had one incident where my dr wwas out of town and there was appt mixup and then he said i could have called the mergency line but i didnt know there was one, and the only reason i made it was because i had saved several. so im pretty supersticious and paranoid so i think wow if that happened once, then it could happen again, i have always had the better safe then sorry look at life. when i doing pills and only had two left i would take the smallest dose possible to make it last as long as possible, where the guy i was dating at teh time would take both 80's and hope it lasted as long as possible. anyways this post is all over, but basically i have had two incidents, one where i was saved because i had extras, and the other i wasnt saved because i was blind sided by paperwork from the DEA getting messed up with prescriptions. i got the script that day but i was sick for several hours and im a big baby about being sick. i feel like ive been through it ebough and i dont wanna be there again and i freak if i start to feel sick, especially if there is no end in sight. like others have said; i check my car constantly, i hide them in 2 diff places in the house, i worry the pharmacys will get robbed at the same time, (we have like 25) or they will all close and i wont be able to get my script. lol i never said i wasnt crazy :lol: :shock: :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:02 pm 
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That's just my opinion. Subs aren't appealing, abuse-wise, to most people. I'm tapering, so sure I want to take more sometimes when I don't feel well, but I have them locked up and my doses pre-made.

If your insurance covers it now, it may not always. Your doctor could lost their license or have a death/birth in their family and cancel on you. Your doc could die, sorry to be morbid. You could lose your script...that's NOT hard to do. Your doc could force you down on your dose waaayyy too quickly and no matter what you tell them, they won't budge on their schedule. Depending on where you live, there could be an earthquake or a tornado or a snowstorm. SOOOO many possibilities. I've always had an earthquake supply. My doc knows this. I'm very open about it!! I've always be prescribed more than I actually need. One time, my first doctor refused to see me because there was 'a problem with my urine test'. Translation: he accused me of doing drugs ad wouldn't see me until I came clean about it. He rescheduled my appointment for later on and didn't care that I should technically have run out if I'd been always taking the gigantic dose he prescribed me. To make a long story short, he was reading the urine test wrong. He accused me of taking about 10-15 drugs, some of which I'd never even seen, some of which I'd seen and done in the past, which were marked with stars. Actually, those were the ones he had REQUESTED TO BE TESTED!!!! Dumb-Dumb!!!!! So, I had my earthquake supply to back me up while he figured out how to read a urine test...and noticed the big bold title that said 'NO DRUGS DETECTED'!!!

AND Hoarding is a way to protect yourself. People who run out of Subs could go back to their opiates.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:19 am 
I agree.... Once I saw my sub doc get so angry about me wanting to lower my dose I just shut up. Scared the hell out of me. I could see him offing me since I didnt want to play it "his" way. I felt better on lower doses.. less side affects. I was on it for a while and never did he even do a urine on me... never said get support.. just take this and you will feel better.

I soon realize I was the one responsible for my recovery... I had to have him for the sub but here... many sub docs. Lots of money in it. I cant wait till the new delivery system comes out. Then the corner sub doc will not have a hold on the poor addict.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:25 pm 
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I'm reading some people's stories on here and I'm honestly in shock. First of all, I HATE these doctors who have "contracts" that say you cannot do this, you must do that, etc., etc., or I'm not going to provide you with THE HELP THAT YOU NEED! What hypocrisy. If they were even remotely educated in the area of addiction, then they would know that relapse is almost bound to happen. Secondly, what would they rather see? Their patient pick themselves up and get back on the horse (in this case, the Suboxone) or go back to their drug of choice? It just doesn't make any sense at all. None! I have become friendly with a girl who started in the same program as me. I hadn't seen her the last couple of times I had gone, but I ran into her today. She told me she relapsed big time (her father died), but the doctor simply started over with her treatment. Shit happens. People are human. These doctors do not leave room for error and that's just wrong. They seriously must not understand the fundamentals of addiction....

As for the hoarding, I do that, too. But, I do it for completely different reasons than most. I hoard them away because at some point, I want to STOP paying my Sub doctor, PERIOD. I'm currently tapering and still on a large dose, but not nearly as high as she thinks I am. Additionally, she has stated that she would go at my pace, so I'm not planning on dropping my dose anytime soon... Therefore, I have plenty of time to hoard. When the time comes and I'm down to... say... one mg a day, then I'll just stop seeing her all together. I won't need to because by that point, I'm hoping to have a substantial stash of subs to help see me through to the end. Don't get me wrong... I've grown to really like an respect my sub doctor, but if I can get away without paying those doctor's fees every two weeks, then by God I am! My insurance doesn't cover it and it's becoming almost as expensive (with therapy/counseling) as my Roxi addiction.

I live in South Florida where there is literally a FIVE pill mills within a one mile radius of my house. Having so many pill mills.... er... pain clinics in one area, there is a HUGE need for outpatient detox centers. I blame these pills mills for rapid addiction to Roxicets... I mean, I would take a Vicodin here and there for recreational purposes, then once addicted, I bought the more powerful Percocets off the streets. Once I figured out I could get five times the amount of Roxicets as I was paying for the Percocets from a legit doctor, I was all over it like stink on shit. However, I reckon I can't blame the pill mills... I mean, no one held a gun to my head and forced me to get that MRI and see that doctor and get that script for hundreds of Roxi's every month... Anyway, since there are so many addicts in this town due to the amount of pill mills, those of us seeking treatment have a lot of options. Most of the pill mills ALSO offer detoxing using Suboxone. Nice, huh? "Come on in! Bring your MRI and we'll get you feeling good and then addicted!!! Once you've had enough, then give us MORE money and we'll help you get off the drugs!" I purposely chose one of the many places that does detoxing only. I knew they would be more strict, but they are also cheaper. However, none of them are as Nazi-like as some of you have described. It's as if they are holding you guys hostage!

This really pisses me off to no end.... Here you are trying your best to get help and they won't give you the help you're asking for unless you jump through hoops. What a crock.... If any of you all have a crappy doctor, I would urge you to look elsewhere. I know some people are limited as to where you can go to get them, but more and more doctors are able to prescribe Suboxone and I would look into it. I know there are some family practitioners here that have gotten the training to treat patients using Suboxone, so keep checking in your area. Hopefully more options will become available for everyone who is having to deal with a shitty doctor....

Contracts... Unbelievable....


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