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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Day 21, I suppose

Maybe we should measure excercise, in mg, rather that distance,.....lol (being silly)

Been doing more tests, so will share.

I hate excercising too, but, I must admit, when you are a little sore, or don't feel the way you want to.
It freakin works, better than panadol, or nurofen.

I felt a little sore yesterday, because of some extended release insomnia, and was a touch shitty.

I went for a 2km walk(.02mg), got home, waited 10 mins, and BAM, I am feeling salubrious, and happy.

What I notice when walking, is that i have this unstoppable energy, and can walk, and walk, and walk, and double pace, even.
Its like all this pent up energy is releasing.
I cannot fully understand how this works, but it does. It takes about 20 mins of hard walking, to feel supoib(yes, sue-perb).

Anyway, back to the grind, and will update soon,

HS


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Heck yeah Hope keep it up! I have some trouble getting into the gym sometimes too, but if you can drag your ass in there you really do feel great afterwards....To your walking point- Yes, it's great!! I never wanted to walk before...now I'm walking almost everyday on my lunch break at work, and walking at a good pace too! I've got the energy and it's great. Not to mention the weather is amazing this time of year in Florida(never really noticed that before either lol) - doubt I'll be walking outside much midday in summer tho.... I'll put my headphones in and walk until I have to get back to work(usually 30-45min but I'd walk for hours if I could). It's so refreshing and uplifting being outdoors in the sun jamming to tunes that never sounded as good as they do now! Sometimes a good song comes on as I'm walking and I literally can't help myself from smiling...great natural feelings not to mention an escape from work!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:16 am 
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Just wanted to jump in and congratulate you as well.

Your lucid communication and thoughtful disposition have provided a great repository of knowledge to anyone who visits this forum. For those of us who wish to taper off of suboxone completely, your devotion to chronicling your journey will likely provide help to countless people in the near and far future, including myself personally. Knowledge truly is power, especially when it comes to something like this.

The fact that both you and SJB both still experienced some minor withdrawal symptoms in jumping off of 40-50 micrograms is kind of incredible and flies in the face of all medical literature available on suboxone. I hope stories like yours are a seed for future suboxone treatment. Doctors, patients, rehabilitation facilities and the like should learn that if you don't go very, very low, success might be harder to maintain and the withdrawal symptoms are real. A long, slow deliberate taper to a very low dose seems to be the way to do it. As Dr. J has mentioned, the next step is getting them to make those .4 tabs/films for us here in the states.

I'm rambling, but basically I'm just trying to thank you. I hope to add to the aforementioned repository of knowledge for folks in the future who are trying to do what you were able to accomplish... getting off opioids with minimal pain and suffering.

See ya around. Keep us posted!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:33 pm 
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DAY 23 - and feelin fine
Hi Broseph, good to hear from you again,


Thankyou for your kind words.
Yes, it is amazing the gap between Dr's knowledge and what we know, as the TRUTH.

It's about as big of a gap in understanding as anyone would like.
It is a really interesting Journey though, one I am sure that you will chuckle over when you are done.

You probably, like me, really want to know, what really happens when you stop, and what do you actually feel etc.
Just know, it is a hell of alot eaier than you imagine, but still a pain in the ass, because of duration.

Things are crazy different, for the first few weeks, and most prominent in my mind, are really only a few things.

Like when you wake up, your pretty stiff, for the first few minutes, but besides that, it is really only the insomnia, that you should even be phased about, if at all.

Never worry, about sleep, it all works out in the end, it is the worry of not sleeping and anxiety that follows, that can some time cause grief, but you will learn this also, and know that it is all fear etc.


Just plan for a few weeks of crap sleep, and you do this easily.

HS


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Day 25

True stigma of drug addiction, in action.


I went to my addiction specialist, the other day, and he felt the need to write me a script for temazepam.
I did not even ask for it,. But went to get it filled, as a security blanket.
Please note, I have no addiction to benzo's.

So, I hand in the script, and come back the next day,. All my medications, have been cancelled,? WTF?

After some investigation, I found out our governing body, which overseas all drugs of addiction (DDU), over ruled my DR, and cancelled my script. WTF?

So, in essence, someone I have never met, over ruled an addiction specialist's recommendations for me, and placed me into the stigma of drug seeking, and possible poly substance abuse? WTF?

I am not on any drugs of addiction, and have never been prescribed anything outside of Bupe. WTF?

So, what has happened, is a poor bastard, like me, who actually, is doing the right thing, has been denied, medication, to aid removal of addiction.

I really pissed me off yesterday, to be treated like a second class citizen, and to actually have someone that i do not know, or does not know me, make a potentially life threatening(not really, but could have been) decision, to over rule my dr, who is helping me fight addiction.

Wankers.
I am the kind of person, who feels that this is just so wrong, that I will contact, my local member of parliament, and get this investigated. I beleive the person that made this decision, should be responsible for his actions. And that this could of actually caused great harm,.

Anyway, thats stigma kids, and it is dealt out by people acting like demigods, without recourse,.

HS

Fighting the bs


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Update: day 25

Physical symptoms: NONE or very little, slight skin sensitivity to cold, and lack of warmth on sleep drop off.
insomnia: 3-4 hours sleep per night
MOOD: 100%
Malaise: None, but after tragic sleep, it can sneek in.
Excercise: 1 hour walk per day, (.02mg) seems to make the day yummy,.
Legal: Going to make some waves about latest prescribing incident...lol



HS


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Day 27 - Symptom update

Good morning all.
Here is a status update, for all those, so inclined.

Day 24-day 26 - experience some bone chill, for first time, during sleep.
May be the unseasonal weather here, but I will still note it as a symptom.
Feels like your extremities are a little frozen, on waking,....No biggy. Lasted a couple of days, then dissapeared.

Night time Sleep routine, is pretty dismal. Going to bed at 5amm and getting up at 9-10am.
Feel refreshed on waking, and trust me, 4 hours sleep is twice as good, as two hours sleep.

Restless legs, at night, has finally dissapeared, and has turned into a low level ache, just before bed.
Days are good, feel good, feel happy still, and really am experiencing only mild insomnia now.

Yes, so even tapering to .02 mg, still gets you a few slaps of insomnia. And to be honest kids, thats all your gonna get, if you taper that low.
No crushing mood, or desperation, or hopelessness. Just Insomnia.

I can see my sleep routine improving all the time, and that is what makes this micro hell, bearable at night.

Keep Smooth,

Hopespring.

Also, have almost tapered off clonidine, as prob, don;t need it anymore.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:53 pm 
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Almost made it to the Holy 1 month mark.
Since this is competitive Bupe detoxing, this is a great goal post to reach(tongue in cheek)

How do I feel?
Well...............................

Depends when you ask me?

During the day, I am everyones friend........
But during the night, I am the 5am man, with periodic sore legs, that make a smooth sleep, just that little bit hard.

But what is the pain, can you describe it?

Yes it feel like your thigh muscles are tight, thats it. Its not agony, but it is enough, to make you reach for a nurofen or two, which actually work.

What does 30 days of insomnia, feel like?

It sucks dogs ba**s. I have become a man, that can function on 3-4 hours of sleep, just.
But if you just accept all this, and stop fighting it, and pushing yourself mentally to sleep, you soon discover, that everything is allright, and you have just become a night owl for a while,. The only misery, is that which i create due to frustration, and clinging on to an ideal situation, that will arrive,. in its own good time.

What does sleep feel like, now you are no longer on Bupe?

Well... most of the time you do not even know you are asleep, or even recognise any of the goal posts of sleep, that you used to know and love. It gets easier, but very, very slowly. Its almost like having surgery, you are wide awake one minute, and the next, 2 or 3 hours have passed.

HS

Laying it down.


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 Post subject: The flip side
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:05 pm 
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So thats all the negatives out of the way.

What are some of the good things that have happened, in the last 30 days?


RLS has stopped..Bloody hoorah, the electricity pulsing through my legs, is no more.
I sleep so much longer than the first few weeks, and muchmore consistently.

I suffer no hard pain anymore on waking, and no longer have the odd crap, day.
During the day, i am 100% hopespring,. I laugh , i am back integrated into society.
I have way more energy than i ever did on Bupe, I think clearer, I feel smarter, and sharper.

I can do anything, a normal person can do, socializing is just as good, if not better, than i ever remember.

I have a sex drive again, but definitely not as much when I first stopped. Wooah baby.
I have gone from 8 a day to about 2, if you catch my drift, (i prob owe it money now...lol)

For some reasons, things just make a lot more sense off Bupe, It is such a fog, when you are on it.
Your world shrinks into TV and sleep, and no social life on Bupe,. It is expanding again, now, and this makes me very happy.

One of the things I hated most about bupe, was the lethargy, and consant need to sleep. It interfered with my social life, to such a great extent, that for all intensive purposes, I did not have one.

Love to all, be good, and know, that we are powerful little buggers, deep down,

HS


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:46 pm 
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100% All natural Hopespring!

RLS going away is one of the most beautiful things I've ever witnessed. The ability to lie down and not move around like a fish out of water. Thank the holy bupe besus.

I've noticed the sex drive decline a little as well... Why oh Why do you take the only good part of this process with you suboxone?! You beat us down over and over yet piss in our cheerios with the only gift!

Granted I won't complain much, its still about 400x higher than while on suboxone.

I lost about 95% of my friends while on bupe. Tv and sleep were my out of work hobbies. In the past 10 or so days I've been everywhere socializing. I love the feeling. It's amazing!

Congratulations on 99% normal buddy! 2.5 years into the making!

-WTBF

P.S. you definitely owe him some money $$$$ aha!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:46 am 
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Hi mate,


I was thinking about you today, and was wondering how you are fairing, I hope things are getting there.

Yeah, it still blows my mind, that a drug can do this to people.
No other drug I know, can do this, for so long.

So what happens to us, when we are all fixed?
Do we join a super council of masters of pain?
We will all sit on some ivory tower, and look down at all the humans, who have never been through this, and say," you don't know what pain is?"
I know, that this is a hardening up process, and will change the way we look at pain in future.

Will the hospitals be surprised, when we have surgery, and say, no need for any meds, Just open me up.
And the dr's reply, but what about the severe pain, during surgery, and we laugh and say, "harden up doc, its only open heart surgery, "

ahh, yes, It will be like those ol' western movies. "just put the red hot iron pole, into the bullet wound"
But sir, do you want us to knock you over the head or give you copious amounts of grog, fot the pain?

And we say, "what pain"


HS


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 Post subject: Excellent!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Day 29

Hello, fellow documentarians,

Something good is happening, I can feel it in my soft and squishy creamy brain mass.

Nights are getting alot easier, I am now able to lie in bed at night time, and actually relax, the way I remember.
I drifted off with a small bit of pre sleep bliss, and then fell asleep, as per my 5am to 9am schedule.

Normally it is go to bed, and wait until, i am unconscious.

Just thought I would make this update, as i feel this is reasonably significant, as a goal post, on this little journey.

HS
I wake up, feeling quite rested now, and am just over the moon, that something good, is finally happening, in the sleep department.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:53 pm 
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hopespring wrote:
Hi mate,


I was thinking about you today, and was wondering how you are fairing, I hope things are getting there.

Yeah, it still blows my mind, that a drug can do this to people.
No other drug I know, can do this, for so long.

So what happens to us, when we are all fixed?
Do we join a super council of masters of pain?
We will all sit on some ivory tower, and look down at all the humans, who have never been through this, and say," you don't know what pain is?"
I know, that this is a hardening up process, and will change the way we look at pain in future.

Will the hospitals be surprised, when we have surgery, and say, no need for any meds, Just open me up.
And the dr's reply, but what about the severe pain, during surgery, and we laugh and say, "harden up doc, its only open heart surgery, "

ahh, yes, It will be like those ol' western movies. "just put the red hot iron pole, into the bullet wound"
But sir, do you want us to knock you over the head or give you copious amounts of grog, fot the pain?

And we say, "what pain"


HS


Hahaha I literally had a deep long laugh reading this. I can absolutely picture both of us going through surgery & laughing at them when they offer pain meds. Advil please & thank-you!

There is no better way to sum all of this process up. As I sit here pondering our awesome journey I can't help but think how amazing it was to have someone going through the exact same torment and continuing to be positive and have a comic outlook on things. Hopespring I hope you know just how powerful you have been towards my own recovery. Absolutely makes my day to see continued progress from my fellow guinea pig experiment.

I also love seeing new people undertaking the same horrid task we just undertook and finding the same comfort in each other as we did. I smiled and remembered the short time ago we were in the exact same situation.

Absolutely keep doing your thing. We share a very similar outlook into this process and I cannot wait to read how you progress throughout all the crap suboxone has thrown at us. I cannot help but reference you in nearly every new person looking for inspiration into quitting this beast.

Anyhow, thank you buddy. You've been a huge benefit to me, my wife and my son. I always could look towards your posts and smile. I knew I'd experience better days ahead. You know the same I'm sure. Every single day is a little bit better. Every single day we feel closer to that childhood innocence of not being impaired by anything. It's amazing. It really, really is.

Thank you Hopespring. Keep doing your thing buddy. You're motivation to more people than you know.

-WTBF


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:18 pm 
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Wow it sounds like bupe was a torment for you guys. I can't say my experience is totally the opposite though. It is an opioid, and it does blunt the emotions a bit, and make us a lil bit more detached from the world than we would be otherwise. But the alternative at this stage for me, I genuinely feel, is relapse. If I haven't been able to stay clean for longer than 6 months on Sub, what would be my chances off it... at this stage?

I've found that my musical output is like ... 1/10th what it was when I was off drug-replacement. Also I have to put a bit more "effort" into socialising than I would otherwise.

It's far from a perfect answer to opioid addiction.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:34 am 
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Hi,

Torment on the drug or getting off it,?

Hey, everything has its negatives, but, most people would be hard pressed to say opiates aren't pleasureable.
The opposite, for people getting off them.

I hear what your saying, and its sounds like your not cooked yet..As you say, you feel a bit fragile, and you fear using, if clean.
Fair enough.
I don;t know how old you are, or what stage in your life you are, or what you have been through.
But, I know all opiates are a short term fix, instead of ong term happiness.

Hypothetically,
If you could painlessly detox off bupe, and get back to that state, before you ever used, despite having the knowledge of your past addiction,. You would feel pretty damn good. lets face it, your body produces opiates naturally.
When you walk, when you move etc. (endogenous opiiods)
So why be greedy?.
Its like in lfe we get this choice,. To have super charged opiate levels, that can only lead to trouble, or just accept, that once, we did not need a pill to be happy.

It is that fear of WD and the sensation of pain, that drive this addiction. it is all in that moment, when common sense turns to fear. Anxiety kicks in, panic, then its back to addiction cycle.

When I said cooked before, i mean, it sounds that for this moment in your life, you should stay on the bupe. It took me 5 years, till I thought i was ready.(cooked)
Bupe is the place to be, to get your life back together, and then just wait till your sick enough off it, and the BS that comes with it. ie dr.s stigma, laziness, depersonalisation, no socail life, over sleeping, and every day, month year on these cray maintenance drugs, the hole just gets that little deeper to get out of.

Mate, I'm over 40, have almost been through every addiction in the book, most of us have. It was the world around me, when I moved out of home, and ventured into this crazy world.

Cigarettes, amphetamines, opiods Have now stopped them all.
I know where this road leads, and it is not for me. I could never give up before, either, any of the DOC's
I would always restart, after a month, a year, i just did not know why. But I kept trying,
I kinda learnt, with cigs, that if i cut a slither of the nicotine patch every other day, It might work,
It did, for me,.
Its a false economy, artificial opiates, just stick to natural, I say.

Just do whatever makes you happy, This makes me happy.

HS


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:01 pm 
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WTBF,

That's probably the nicest thing someone has said to me, in a while.

You are also, my security blanket, as I feel your simultaneuos journey, is keeping me sane, also.

It just makes it easier, doesn;t it, having someone, sharing what we are going through.

I deeply believe you are one strong son of a B****. My family, son, also, are sharing this journey,.
And as you would know, the support is priceless.

Your post gave me such a lift yesterday, and I worked hard all day, in a good mood, after reading your post.

I reached another psychological goal post, influenced by you, that I fully function now, and work is no longer suffering.

For the first time, in 30 days, I feel truly fixed, not just physically, but mentally too.

My sleep is really good now, I feel just like the way I wanted to, yesterday, 100% now. I feel just like, before I started Bupe.

Sleep is returning, occasional head darkness, die to lack of sleep, has lifted, and I am just feeling so much better every day.

Peace and great love for you WTBF,
We are almost there.


HS


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 Post subject: 31 days - yay
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:14 pm 
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Day 31

Time for an update:

More good news folks, and here is what is happening.

Touch Wood, but my sleep cycle is returning, INSOMNIA is finishing!!!!!

I have been having issue, with being the 5am sleep man,.
I am not really the kind of person, to take sleeping pills, or herbal stuff, especially herbal stuff, as despite popular opinion,
I thinks herbs are pretty much useless in the field of opiate induced insomnia.(probably to my own detrement)

And also, why interfere with a naturally returning process, your just gonna delay the ineveitable , right?

Well, I am getting my sleep back, and its happening, more this week, than last.
I can now go to bed, at 11:00 pm, yes thats, right, not 5am. The sleep man, is a knockin on my door, and I made special attention to leave the door unlocked.

I slept from 11 pm to 7:30 am ( normal sleeping hours ), with only two wake-ups for 20 mins.

I am finding this is what works for me.
Turn TV off after 11:00 pm (stop activating a already tired body and mind)
If I wake up, and am finding dropp off hard, This is what seems to be working.

Get up, straight into shower for 10 mins, Full soaking, and make sure you heat up your whole body, including your brain.,
Just let is soak. Finish shower, no TV, straight back to bed.

It seems that at day 31, it is actually possible to sleep quite easily, after this. And if not, just re shower and settle.
The shower relaxes all your muscles, and also, replicates, the natural body cooling effect, that initiaites sleep naturally.

When your body goes from warm, to cool, that is when your brain thinks sleep, is about to commence.
It actually works, breaking my 5am sleep cycle, so I am chuffed.

I am almost 100% now, so my posts may be less frrequent, but any changes, I will update.

In hindsight, this ordeal has been pretty manageable, but of course when you are going through it, regardless of pain scale, it is just a miserable yet, challenging grind.
I quickly forget all the insomnia, in the first 2 weeks, and all that insomnia, gets put in a much different light, and in hindsight, is totally manageable.

I did not die, from lack of sleep, which is what we worry about initially, ie day 1-11.

Anyway, I was thiniing last nioght, why I seem to not have good and bad days,.
It is probably due to the Zoloft, which keeps your happiness levels, quite supoib, during the whole process.
In a month or two, I will cease Zoloft, and for anyone, who feels, mentally sad, I highly recommend Zoloft.
If not for the other around you, to make there time easier. It is truly a happiness in a pill. But must be respected, as tpaering off zoloft is essential to avoid any rebound action.

I guess,m I never got fatigue, lucky to dodge that bullet, Kinda happy, I never got the lead suit action,.
then again, having AHD, I have have lethargy, and procrastination most of my life, and just do not have it during this process.

So, all in all I would say, allow your self a good month to 6 weeks, if you taper down to .04 after a 5 year stint, on bupe (10mg).

I promise all people following this, that this is sooooo do-able, and is nothing compared to full agonist opiates.
You don't ever feel tummy sick, or in agony, or depressed, for any period of time.
You can basically get on with your life, at week 2, like I did.(went back to work after 2 weeks)


I wish everyone the best, and I hope this information, helps many, understanding the evils of Bupe, and how to avoid, said evils.

Any wisdom, I can share, in the next few months years, I will pass on the help others,.
So keep tuned,.

YOU CAN BEAT BUPE, when your ready.

Peace and love.

HS


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 Post subject: One last thing
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:46 pm 
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One last important thing.

I say this with caution, but also in the aid of helping people in sub WD.

Cannabis helps immensly with day time WD's.

If you are having a crap day, especially in the first two weeks, and if you are tolerant to cannabis.(not recommended for newbies, unless, it is used medicinally )

I don't know the full mechanism of why it works, exactly, but It is probably tied into the dopamine reduction you get when detoxing. Cannabis is a life saver during WD's for me. I remember on the 11th day of detoxing.
I felt kinda fragile, and a bit achy, I had some cannabis, and bang, I was 100% for the rest of the day.

The change in mood, and physicality, was so profound, that I just have to make sure, i did not forget to document it.


We can't afford TLR4 agonists, or exclusive kappa agonist, to aid WD's
But we sure have our choice of dopamine agonists, and they really, are significant, in stopping most symptoms.

There is lots of anecdotal evidence of dopamine's positive effects on WD, as noted by Freud, and William s. Burrows.
I agree that from the three dopamine agonist I experimented with. Sifrol, cannabis and Dexedrine, that they all worked very well.

It seems that dopamine,(the lack of it) plays a large roll, in the symptoms of WD.

HS



A


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Day 33


Symptom Update:

Can confirm sleep is back on track...Jesus, took long enough.


Can sleep now from 12-2pm till morning 7:30. Getting usually 5 hours straight, plus 2 hours during day o f naps.

I caution with the naps, but hey, I probably am in sleep debt, so why not cash some in.

YAY

HS


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Great news about the sleep! Doesn't it feel good? Getting out of bed can be hard sometimes but nothing that some music and a hot shower won't cure. I got one of those jambox thingies that connects to my iphone/ ipod via wireless. I mostly keep it in the bathroom these days and love to play music when I'm in the shower. It's a great motivator in the AM.

Great job, hang in there!


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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