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 Post subject: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:35 am 
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Okay, I'm desperate to stop Suboxone. Like, really, really desperate. I've tried every single method I could think of to stop, aside from actually going away to detox which I can't do because I got college and a bunch of other shit going on. I tried doing it the doctor's way by getting down to 1mg and then taking it every other day, and then every three days, etc. That didn't work. I tried getting off on my own by getting down to as low as .25 and then jumping off, and that didn't work. Then I tried the same thing again, using xanex, flexeril, and ambien to be able to deal with the withdrawal. That didn't work either. And the most recent thing I tried that I found on this forum, the liquid taper which would allow me to get lower than .25, and I'm finding myself stuck at .5 this time...not even .25. So, thus, my original question...Now, I know it sounds like the most retarded idea ever, so I don't need a bunch of people telling me that. I fully understand that it could make things a lot worse if I end up stuck on dope again instead and how risky it is. But the main thing I want to know is, could it actually work if hypothetically I did dope for like 10 days straight and then just detoxed off that? Would I still have a Sub habit afterwards or no? Like I said, I'm desperate. I've been on this medication for way too long and I can't stop and I'm sick of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:33 pm 
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Chances are it will not work for the very reasons you have stated.
There's a great chance that you will become addicted again.
However, physically id say yes, but I highly recommend you find support and comfort meds to do more of a tapering..
Glad you have joined us and welcome to the forum...



Razor,,


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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:34 pm 
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People every now and then, make mention of going back to full agonists, to try to kick subs, but it's pretty controversial, and actually dangerous. I say that because if you tried many different ways of stopping suboxone even by tapering, with a doctor's assistance, why would you think that you'd be able to stop the dope after ten days? Not busting your chops here, just being honest and realistic. Most of us began taking suboxone because we had completely lost control over our usage of opioids, and couldn't stop, and sub brought back normalcy and sanity to our lives, and took away the horrifying withdrawal and abated the cravings that always led us to relapse. May I ask why you are so desperate to be off suboxone? How long have you been taking suboxone?


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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:57 pm 
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I know ur very desperate to stop suboxone or u wouldn't be considering the drastic measure of using heroin to do it. But I gotta say...is it really worth that risk? U know u will put urself bk to every single aspect almost of using again. You'll have to visit the dealers, talk to the ppl u have been trying to distance urself from all this time, the triggers will become reality again. The reason u went to subs was because u had no control of the other drug, without a doubt in my mind, u will start enjoying that high again. Addicts are addicts and isn't ur fault that you'd start enjoying the heroin. So my opinion is don't wake up the beast again. Try anything besides that. There has to be another way.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:05 am 
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Why heroin? As long as we're talking about a subject we normally strongly advise against, why can't it be a less powerful drug? Our addiction messed up brains will continually come up with ideas like yours to get off Sub. What's wrong with Tramadol? At your low dose that should work fine and it's less addicting than hydro, oxy's or heroin.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:43 am 
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If you know it sounds like "the most retarded idea ever," why are you asking the question?

When I was an active heroin addict, I was able to cut short withdrawals by switching to Methadone or percs after a couple days, so in theory the idea could work...but it won't.

If you're not really ready to quit Subs or opiates in general, no plan or method on earth -- including substitution -- will get you clean. If you really are ready to get clean, then you'll be able to handle to detox, and not need to jump around from one opiate to another.

-- ji

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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:39 am 
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lizzieshug2013 wrote:
I say that because if you tried many different ways of stopping suboxone even by tapering, with a doctor's assistance, why would you think that you'd be able to stop the dope after ten days?


To be honest, I didn't start using Suboxone because I couldn't handle getting off of heroin. I never even tried. The first opiod I had ever gotten high off of was Suboxone, so I already had a Sub habit before I started doing heroin. And I never did heroin consistently enough to have gotten off the Subs. I'd use heroin one day, and then Suboxone the next. The longest heroin binder I think I've ever had is maybe one week straight, and then when I was done, I went straight to Subs again. Didn't even want to try dealing with the withdrawl. But I'll tell you what, if I knew stopping Suboxone would be this hard for me, I would never have done it. I've seen my ex go through 2 months of hell trying to stop Subs, and I'm scared to death to have it last that long and go through what he went through. Dope withdrawal may be worse, but at least it only lasts a week. I can deal with a week. I can't deal with 2 months. As for your other question, all together, I've been stuck on Suboxone for over 5 years now.

I do actually have Tramadol. But with how weak of an opiate it is, I don't know if it'll work. I'd probably have to take a handful of those for them to do anything for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Id have to agree straight up with Jonny I..

You should if you really want off opiates go to an inhouse detox.
I dont see any other way.
It seems like a good idea to use other opiates but in the end without recovery tools in place or outside help the chances are slim. Sorry, my take....


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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:05 pm 
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I agree with JI, and Razor55 on this one. The reason it seemed to me that you had a heroin problem 1st is when you asked about the chances of getting "stuck on dope again" by using heroin to detox from suboxone. I didn't realize that sub had been your drug of choice. That being said, and if tapering with and without a doctor's help didn't work for you, and in the absence of a recovery program, I'd say inpatient rehab, although inconvenient, would be your best bet. I wish you the best either way. This disease is a real beast.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:57 pm 
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johnny_ikon wrote:
If you're not really ready to quit Subs or opiates in general, no plan or method on earth -- including substitution -- will get you clean. If you really are ready to get clean, then you'll be able to handle to detox, and not need to jump around from one opiate to another.


The bolded really needs to be reiterated.

If you can't handle tapering from a partial agonist, you certainly won't be able to handle stopping a full agonist. So yeah, it's pretty retarded thinking. Why don't you try tapering again when you're really ready? Usually you know you're ready when the suck-factor of withdrawing is outweighed by the desire to be off all medication or drugs. And for the sake of being thorough, there is a vast difference between being ready to get of maintenance and being ready to live opiate free for life. i don't think any of us are truly ever ready for the latter.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:38 am 
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Good post.

At certain point, we're ready to put up with the spectre of withdrawal in order to get free. I failed to get clean from heroin, Methadone and other opiates in the past a number of times. I convinced myself that I was unable to handle withdrawal symptoms, but the truth is, I just wasn't willing and/or able to stop using drugs.

I switched from Methadone to Subs 11 months ago (which involved a 72 hour clean time period), then got off Subs in June. This time around, I was determined to get clean, and was prepared to put up with whatever came my way. I think it's a matter of perspective to some extent; once you're truly ready to get drug free, the barriers (like withdrawal symptoms) seem smaller, and the benefits appear larger.

No shame in deciding that this is not the right time to get clean but, as someone who's now gotten off all my prescription drugs (haven't touched heroin in almost 8 years), I will say that it's a totally worthwhile goal. You can start getting yourself ready now by getting set up in some sort of addiction treatment program -- when drugs are removed from the equation, the underlying addiction issues are still there.

-- ji




tinydancer wrote:
If you can't handle tapering from a partial agonist, you certainly won't be able to handle stopping a full agonist. So yeah, it's pretty retarded thinking. Why don't you try tapering again when you're really ready? Usually you know you're ready when the suck-factor of withdrawing is outweighed by the desire to be off all medication or drugs. And for the sake of being thorough, there is a vast difference between being ready to get of maintenance and being ready to live opiate free for life. i don't think any of us are truly ever ready for the latter.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:44 pm 
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johnny_ikon wrote:
Good post.

At certain point, we're ready to put up with the spectre of withdrawal in order to get free. I failed to get clean from heroin, Methadone and other opiates in the past a number of times. I convinced myself that I was unable to handle withdrawal symptoms, but the truth is, I just wasn't willing and/or able to stop using drugs.

I switched from Methadone to Subs 11 months ago (which involved a 72 hour clean time period), then got off Subs in June. This time around, I was determined to get clean, and was prepared to put up with whatever came my way. I think it's a matter of perspective to some extent; once you're truly ready to get drug free, the barriers (like withdrawal symptoms) seem smaller, and the benefits appear larger.

No shame in deciding that this is not the right time to get clean but, as someone who's now gotten off all my prescription drugs (haven't touched heroin in almost 8 years), I will say that it's a totally worthwhile goal. You can start getting yourself ready now by getting set up in some sort of addiction treatment program -- when drugs are removed from the equation, the underlying addiction issues are still there.

-- ji


Johnny the implication from your post is that getting off maintenance drugs should be the ultimate goal of recovery. In fact, you mention all prescription drugs, so I suppose that you would include SSRIs and other mood stabilizing drugs in that category. Your post also implies that being "clean" equals having no prescription drugs in your system. On this forum our definitions are a little different.

For example, recovery goals and the term "clean" are not set in stone, but are up to the individual who is in recovery. For some the ultimate recovery goal might be not dying from a drug overdose. For others it might be not relapsing onto heroin or other problem drugs. Your recovery goal is perfectly valid for just one person. You. Although it is great to have your story here as an example of a recovery goal, it shouldn't read that there is only one ultimate recovery goal unless you specify it's an individual goal. There is no shame in not being ready to get off maintenance drugs, but there is also no shame here in not having that goal.

I've seen your posts share a lot of encouragement on this forum and you are valued here. I would hate to have some newbie come here, however, read this post, and think that we are too narrow minded for them, and not supportive of someone who is planning to stay on bupe. This forum intends to support all of those who are moving toward their recovery goals.

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:54 am 
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I wouldn't call Sub my drug of choice. It was for maybe about 2 weeks. Then I discovered dilaudid, fentanyl, and heroin. And ever since then, I actually started using Suboxone for what it was meant to be used for. But I did jump around a lot between heroin and Sub, like I said. Not because I wanted to, particularly. I didn't want to stop using heroin at the time, but because I didn't have any more money to support my heroin habit and I was getting Subs for free from the doctor. So every time I ran out of money, I settled for taking Sub. Recently, though, I've managed to consistently stay on them...and a very low dose for that matter (.5). I don't know, I could be wrong, but I think maybe I just psyched myself out over the years about Sub withdrawal. Cause like I said, I've seen my ex get off them and it was a very brutal thing to watch. He stayed in bed 24 hours a day for about a month. It wasn't until the month after that that he actually started getting up and doing things again, but even then he always said he felt like shit. So, at this point, I'm more scared of that than heroin withdrawal, cause I know heroin withdrawal only lasts a week. I think it's more the thought of 'Holy shit, I have at least another month of this to go' that always makes me want to quit. That's why I asked if I would still be feeling withdrawal from the Subs after I got through the heroin withdrawal.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:44 pm 
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what dose did your ex jump at?

I haven't read any jump story about someone needing to stay in bed for a month, most people are putting in work days sometimes right away, sometimes within days.

To be honest, the early days after a jump aren't a total walk in the park, but it's way, way easier than we fear. My first day was so-so, second day was sketchy, but by day three I was back to doing normal things (exercising, socializing with friends, etc). By day five I felt 'up' enough to go out on a date.

There were stretches where I had minimal sleep for days at a time, and where I found myself very emotionally charged up, but even during the worst patches, I never forgot that I was doing something awesome for myself, and that I just couldn't go backwards.

If you're truly ready to go drug free, you won't regret making a jump.

-- ji

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 Post subject: Re: Heroin to stop Sub?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:25 pm 
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Well, he had to jump off 4mg. Which I know is a lot different than jumping off .5, but I'm still scared to death that it's going to last a really long time. The one time I was trying to get off them I made it about 6 days without taking any, and I still felt absolutely terrible. (And that particular time, I don't remember the exact dose I jumped from, but I know it wasn't any higher than 1mg). So, I have no idea how anyone could possibly go to work while going through this. Granted, the main thing I have a problem dealing with is the restlessness, especially at night when I'm attempting to sleep. During the day, I can deal with it for the most part. But when I say 'deal with it', I mean literally just tolerate it. All I wanted to do was lay in bed. I definitely wouldn't be able to go out and do anything. I know some people say exercising and all that helps, but I literally can't motivate myself enough to get up and do that, let alone go to work. But at night, there's nothing that helps at all. Like I said before, I even tried taking Xanex, Ambien, and Flexeril to help me sleep and none of those worked either. I can't just stay up all night and constantly move around like I'm having a seizure, it drives me insane. But regardless, if I still felt exactly the same 6 days later, who the hell knows how much longer it would have lasted.


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