It is currently Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:57 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:07 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 14
Hi guys.

Am from the UK.

I've been on Subutex for almost 5 years now.

I tapered from 12mg to 1mg without any problems, i think this is due to the amount of Excercise i do (soccer & tennis).


But query is that since i've been on Subutex for 5 years will i have any permanent damage? hard withdrawals and PAWS?.

Can anybody recommend a taper plan from 1mgs.. I do have many 0.4mg and 0.2mg Subutex & Temgesic..Suppose this makes tapering easier right? and dont need to use the Water Method?.

Also can anyone recommend any Comfort Meds one can use to detox from long term Subutex usage. I have Dihydrocodeine, tramadol, zopiclone, valium, ativan, temazepam, stilnoct (Ambien i think). Also have trazaodone, quinine-sulphate, naprexen...Co-Cocodamol and Lofexidine (simmilar to clonidine) but only 31 tablets of these.

Now which of these would be best suited to help me come off Subutex and its withdrawals?...I must mention i only plan to use anyone of these if i really need them and if withdrawals become unberable..I aint touched heroin in 5 years and i dont have cravings and i dont intend to get addicted to anything but only use them to help me with withdrawals.. I just want to be prepared much as possible because like i said i've been on Subutex for 5 years now...Is it going to be a must to use some comfort meds because of my long term usage of sub?....Is it possbile if i taper slow and low from 1mg to 0.2mg ad skip days that i wont have too many bad withdrawals and not too many hard PAWS?.


Any advice, input, support and help you can give me i would appreciate it this...Its just on many other forums people only claim to have hard withdrawals (so called horror stories). Also is it normal to be kind of crappy while on sub? mind u when i excercise i feel fine but it just feels like am not normal anymore and i want to be sober and clean and ive forgotten how normal is..Would it ever be possible to feel so called normal once i stop the subutex?

Like i said if anybody can recommend a taper plan and advice on which comfort meds i listed above would help most i would appreciate this...Also your honest opinions if i would get terrible withdrawals and paws..Or is it possible that there is no difference betwerrn a 1 year user and 5 year user on sub? sorry for the questions but i really need some help and advice and opinons here.

Thank you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:17 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:47 am
Posts: 1496
There is a topic in the Stopping Suboxone section about the Liquid Taper Method - several of us have used this method to stop with very little withdrawal or PAWS. I quit after 2 years on Suboxone, have been off for almost 10 months now and doing well.

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:38 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 10:40 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Bay Area, California
If you are at 1mg/day now them go to .5 mg/day and you may feel a little discomfort and then after that I would just stop it completely and use some clonadine for blood pressure and some alprazolan for the anxiety and sleep. I dont think you will have much problem with jumping from .5 mg's maybe just a few days of discumfort but after that you will be fine.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:04 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
I don't have any personal experience tapering off yet, but I've read many success stories. The longer and slower the taper the better people seem to do. Many go lower than .5 mg, too; the lower you go, the less chance you'll have of severe withdrawal symptoms.

There are many taper stories in the "stopping suboxone" category that may help you. But again, I'd advice a low, long, and slow taper for the best chance of success.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:05 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 14
Thanks for the reply Guys.

But isn't it better to go from 1mg to 0.8mg instead of 0.5mg???????.......Or there is no difference between 0.5mg and 0.2mg in terms of feeling the effects/withdrawals?...

Also should i not skip days? i cant get the Alprozan for anxiety and sleep but i have vareity of benzos...Ive never abused benzos or any other meds/opiates etc but i only got these incase i need them for withdrawals.

Also about this liquid water taper method...Is this for folks who dont have the 0.4mg and 0.2mg pills/tablets?....Ive got many 0.4mg and 0.2mg Temgesic ones so is it really necessary i have to use the water taper method if i can cut the pills accurately..

Also how many you have folks who've been clean from sub come on this forum on a regular basis? am just curious to know because many people say once people jump they dont come on boards/forums and i hardly see any ex-sub user on many forums so thats why am bit suprised to see 1 or 2 ex-sub users here...To be honest some people on other forums/boards/sites say the only reason folks come on the board is because they havent actually tapered the sub yet but pretend to be clean...You know there're many people and sites who claim certain sites are pro-sub or whatever and talk so and so but i dont take notice...So far i havent had any problems tapering as i Excercise a lot.

If anybody can say if Dihydrocodeine or Co-Cocodamol & Tramadol would be wise or not please state your opinions..Can u alternate with these SAO for few weeks after jumoing from sub?...Also is it possible not to use anything while tapering? if not then what can be used with tapering to the lower doses?

thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:48 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:47 am
Posts: 1496
Wait, are you saying there are people saying that this forum has members who are pretending to have tapered off of Suboxone? That's insane.

Anyway. I'm a moderator so I check in pretty much every day. There are a couple of other people in the Liquid Taper thread who are off Sub and check in every week or so...and there are other people here who have tapered off Sub using various methods and who check in periodically. Another moderator, Shelwoy, just stopped a few weeks ago. Quite a few members are not planning to taper. There are also plenty of people who come along, post once or twice and then we never hear from them again. I guess it just depends on how well people connect and how much support they're getting. Some of us stick around because we want to give back and to keep the memory of where we came from fresh. This is a great, supportive community and most of us recognize that once we get off of Suboxone our work is really just beginning.

In my tapering experience, going from 1mg to .5mgs was too hard, but 1mg to .8mgs was doable. And since you have the .4 and .2 pills, you shouldn't have to mix up a liquid solution - I was just suggesting that you read thru the thread because it's pretty detailed regarding a few different people's taper experience, what doses they were taking and what side effects they experienced, how long it took, etc.

I think a good starting place for a taper plan, once you get down to 1-2mgs, is decrease by 10% every 2 weeks, making sure you get stabilized between drops.

As for skipping days between doses...some people find that works for them, and that's great. You can always try that and if it doesn't work, you can try something else. I didn't like dosing every-other-day, so I just tapered down to a very low dose and then stopped. I took clonidine and ambien as comfort meds, more details about that are in the other thread.

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:09 pm 
Hello Excalibur and welcome! Interesting post and I'll try to answer a few of your questions and offer a few opinions/comments as well. I am not a doctor nor an expert, just a reasonably well-informed opiate addict working my way down on Suboxone like you are. So you may certainly take or leave anything I have to say as you wish.
First of all.....congratulations! Five long years on Subutex and no heroin in all that time.....fantastic!! You don't mention (I don't think) how long you were in active addiction....the reason I'm curious is that sometimes I think that may have an impact on one's chances at long-term sobriety after coming off medication-assisted recovery. For instance....I've known of folks with addiction beginning in the teen years and involving many different substances of abuse for upwards of 20-30 years, their whole life being lived in active addiction. Often times, those folks have never lived "life on life's terms" and do not even know themselves without being in some altered state. I believe that without a whole lot of ongoing therapy and one hell of a support system, those folks may in fact be far better off to remain on buprenorphine for the rest of their lives. I say "better to do that than to relapse and potentially die or cycle back through active addiction again and again." On the other hand, say a person became addicted to opiates as an adult, had say 5 years or so of active addiction, but otherwise had a reasonably stable adulthood without any coexisting addictions or mental health issues. Perhaps that person would have a better chance at maintaining recovery after off bupe. I don't know this to be true and there's every chance I am dead wrong, but it sounds reasonable to me.
Whatever your history and your thoughts on the matter, it sounds as though you are ready and determined to give it a go without the bupe. The reason I brought all that up is because beyond the difficulty, or lack thereof, of withdrawal and PAWS, the bigger challenge will be....preventing relapse in the months and years to come. I certainly understand your wanting to try life without it and I understand when you say something like wanting to see what 'normal' feels like. And I think if that your personal desire and goal.....go for it! Just have a Plan B in place should the going get rough. (My Plan B is to go back onto Suboxone if I find myself spiraling back into Hell after I finish my taper)
Okay....So you are lucky to have those smaller doses of bupe available to you in the UK. I don't see why you'd need to bother with the liquid taper with that being the case. You could still follow the dosing regimes set forth on the 'liquid taper method' thread though. You just wouldn't have to dissolve your tabs in water. If it were me, I'd go from the 1mg/day that you're on now, to probably 0.8mg/day in divided doses (0.4mg in the a.m. and 0.4mg in the p.m.). Dr Junig has recommended dividing the dose when you're getting real low. (I am at 1mg/day and found myself to feel much much better by dividing the dose.) If I were you, I would allow myself a week or two to stabilize with each dose reduction, then continue on down by 0.1 or 0.2mg increments until you make it down to as small of a dose as you can. One of our regular posters posted her experiences with 'jumping off' at 0.125mg/day and said it was more of a "hop" than a jump! She did beautifully by her report. Several weeks after the 'hop' she was not complaining of any really noteworthy PAWS or anything. Now I say....that's the way I'd like to go!! So there is some food for thought in terms of furthering your taper.
As far as the comfort meds......I'm hoping not to even need any. Those who have done it as slow and low as the method I just wrote about, needed little to nothing in the way of comfort meds. Personally I would steer far far away from any opiates, even the so-called small guns like Tramadol can cause trouble for an opiate addict. Although it is in fact often used for opiate detox/withdrawal. It just wouldn't be my first choice. Any of the NSAIDS (ibuprofen, naproxen) are fine; very low dose and small quantity of benzos could be used safely if needed, as could sleep aid such as Ambien; and clonidine is often used to help with blood pressure type symptoms (gooseflesh, hot/cold flashes, sweats) but have to be careful not to bottom out the blood pressure too much leading to feelings of dizziness or faintness. Truth told....I bet you won't need much if any of that stuff if you do this slowly and get yourself still lower on your dose.
As to what you might expect with your 'detox' from Subutex.....There is no reason to believe that it will be hellish like some fo the stories you might find on the internet.....almost all those stories are written by people who stopped bupe suddenly at too high a dose, so of course, it would be pretty rough. So try and get those thoughts flushed from your mind. Our own expectations play a large role in how this will go. If we expect it to be horrid...it probably won't disappoint. On the other hand, if we expect it to reasonably easy...it just might be!! Right?
I don't think there is that much different than a 1 year user of bupe than a 5 year user of bupe in terms of how hard it will be to get off. It shouldn't matter if you do it right......low and slow! You must remain motivated and active and be in good physical condition as well, and have good support in place for this to have its best chance. If everything is in place, your life is at a good place and you feel strong in your recovery and ready....than go for it! Take it slow. I'll be along with you!
Hope that helped some and I hope you'll post often about how everything is going for you!


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:52 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 14
Hey.

Thanks for the replies...I really appreciate it.


Reason i came here is because other sites seem to be too negative..Giving out horror stories, complaining, having a go at sub manufactures and just basically being un-helpful..Because people putting all that negative stuff in ur head just makes u negative too and unhappy and i didnt wanna keep hearing that..It doesnt do well for tapering and recovery either so i joined this site. And thanks for making me feel welcome.

Now my situation before Subutex/Buprenorphine was that i was on and off heroin user for 5 years..To be honest i always use to ride out the heroin withdrawals but it was just boredom and more of a mental issue then anything which kept me using heroin...I always thought to myself i can do heroin now and again or whenever i had money as i could handle the withdrawals..Whenever i didnt take heroin i still felt good, still did sports, worked, socialised etc but thats the thing, i kept thinking if i got these undercontrol then whats the harm in doing heroin now and again? i just enjoyed the buzz too much..But i was lucky in the sense i got Family support, i keep actice, in shape and have no other worries..I got on Subutex as i liked the buzz of Subutex and felt i didnt need to do heroin anymore..Didnt need to waste my money..I never stole, never been to prison, never hit rock bottom sort of thing..So all this would minimize PAWS for me? ive totally changed my addictive behaviour and thinking..Am more Religious now and more maturer and wiser..I have no cravings whatsoever. I know this might be a controversial issue but my view/opinion is that you only get addicted if you let yourself..I believe it comes down to choice and our thinking..Nobody puts a gun to our heads to do drugs/opiates, well to not to most people anyway...I simply started to do it as i wanted to socialize with somone who i had known for a very long time and didnt wanna lose that person as a freind..I know its a stupid reason..But yeh thats just my view and opinion..Ive seen lot of people who use to do heroin and methadone for several years stay clean for several years & still are clean..I believe if we want to we can. But thats just my view..But if things do get rough i'll just go back on sub but i hope i dont need to..

Now i just want to live life free of opiates and think how i would think if i never did drugs or sub..Though its not bad being on sub i just feel i would be happier off it..Get those emotions, feeling and even smell back..I keep busy a lot and active and i think because of Excercise i manage to taper from 8-12mg to 1mg....So far as support and recovery goes i think its all good in that area..Ive also got decent freinds and just keep with good people..I have no desire to use..If i must then it will only be because of helping the withdrawals..Am quite a strong person and strong Willed because when i use to go through heroin withdrawals i still kept positive and kept going and never had desire to use someting to minimize the withdrawals..Like i said it was more of a mental thing with me as i was young and had support so said to myself it doesnt do any harm smoking heroin now and again..But whenever i didnt i didnt crave or be depressed or anything..But ive changed that thinking, that behaviour..

Now am on 1mg i tend to go lower and slow as possible...Is it possible to take valium now and again to help with the low doses?..I dont have Clonidine but have Lofexidine but only 31 tablets. And the rest like i said DHC Tramadol Coco-Codamol and benzos...Are there any good meds which help with restless legs?.


Thanks for ur advice again guys.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:07 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 14
One more thing..

I take my dose all at once, been doing that for the whole duration of my stay on Subutex.

I always excercise after i take my dose..I notice this makes me feel better throughout the whole day/night.. Though gives me a little high (duno if thats a good thing or not) but still am use to it but should i split the doses now? or is there no need?.

Also if split the doses then on what dose should i take it all at once? i mean say for instance i want to skip days when on 0.2 or 0.3, then do i still take the Sub twice a day or all at once?..Does it really make any difference taking it at once or twice or more?..Yeah so just wanted to point that out.....If i split my dose now i.e 0.5mg AM and 0.5mg PM then do i reduce the AM dose first or PM? also on what dose should i reach in order to dose only once? thats if it will be possible to dose at once at the end..

Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:44 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 14
If i split the dose then how long shall i keep spliting it? until i reach 0.4mg? or carry on splitting it untill i jump? I heard with twice/split Dosing ur simply adding the half-life....Is this true?

Cheers!.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:37 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
I have no personal experience, but Dr. J recommends splitting the doses when one gets down really low. I'm sorry I can't point you in a specific direction, other than all those stopping suboxone threads.
Keep us posted!

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:39 pm 
Xcal....Hope today finds you well! Regarding the "split dose" issue, a couple of things.....My personal experience was this - At getting to about the 1mg/day point, I began feeling pretty 'off' in the evenings when dosing only once per day. So I split my dose taking ~0.5mg in the a.m. and ~0.5mg in the p.m. (I say '~' because I'm not doing the liquid method yet so my little pieces of the 8mg Sub tablets are approximations.) I felt better almost immediately upon splitting my dose.
To my admittedly limited understanding, you are correct in your thinking that splitting doses has something to do with the halflife of the drug. Again to my limited understanding, once we get below the "ceiling level" in our daily dose (which we are well below at anything under 2mg/day) things change dramatically in the way our blood levels of this medication are maintained. We are no longer taking enough buprenorphine to keep us at a steady state in terms of how much bupe is present at all times in our system. At the lower doses, the drug begins to act more like shorter-acting full agonists. In other words, our blood levels of the drug are peaking and troughing, are more labile, or are going up and down more, if you will. What happens with that is that we may notice that we're feeling some of the old familiar symptoms of withdrawal when that blood level is at its lower point (which it certainly will be low after 24 hours of only 1mg or so.) For me, the early w/d symptoms consist of mood and motivation issues, achey legs, sleep disturbance issues and such. So, by taking my Sub twice a day, I don't experience the highest (peak) blood level of drug, nor the lowest (trough) blood level nearly as dramatically.
Having said all that.....I would imagine that we would need to continue with the split dose method until such time as we are on such a low dose, that the only thing left to do in regards to decreasing our dose is to drop back to one dose daily, then go to every other day, etc until we feel we're ready to go without. That's my plan as I see it today. Now, I do reserve the right to change that plan, mind you, should I see the need! I do have my doctor's blessing to finish my taper as I feel best, by the way, lest it sound like I'm "playing doctor" to myself!
The thing is....we are all different. All we can do is take advantage of the knowledge we have at our disposal thanks to the kindness of those on this forum who have charted the path for us. I intend to make the most of that information, while knowing that everything that worked perfectly for someone else may need some adjustments for my particular body and situation. Same for you. You may do just fine with dosing once per day all the way through. You may not 'feel' any of those peaks and troughs at the lower doses. And if you don't.....great....stick to once a day. I think the thing to take to heart, for me anyway, is to do this taper and discontinuation as comfortably as possible. We all have different tolerance levels, so to speak. What would put one to bed, would spur another on to fight harder and press on, you know? It's just up to the individual. For me, the more comfortable this whole thing....the better chance I will probably have at success with finishing the taper and coming off the Suboxone. And I'm in no hurry, which plays a big role. But that's just me. I'm sure you will figure the best plan for you as you go along, if nothing else.
Well.....I guess I just said a lot to say a little!!...nothing new! I hope that helps explain the reasoning of the split dose idea, in simplistic terms at least. I know there is much more involved scientifically with this, so if someone else knows a more accurate way of explaining, has a better rationale, or if I'm just completely off in my thinking on this....feel free to clarify!
Take care.....to you and everyone else who's working on this with us!!


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:27 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 14
Thanks for that man!.

I appreciate it.

Am just curious as to what dose to reach when taking it all at once...Could it be 0.4mg? or 0.2mg? i dont know.

Also i notice that if i excercise as soon as i take my dose i feel good, and this on 1mgs only..If i dont excercise then i feel like u a bit off in evenings etc..

I will carry on with the excercise and dosing once a day or splitting...I just dont know if i split dose then at to what dose shall i dose once again.

Thanks again guys..Any more input advice support help tips etc i would be greatful.

Cheers!.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:59 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 14
Does it make any difference if one has been on a high dose such as 12mg and tapers long and slow then a person who has been on 2mgs and tapers long & slow?..I mean as long as u taper properly slow and long regardless of strenght of dose and duration then the outcome is same as someone who tapers then same but been on a low dose such 2mgs?..Because some say if u been on dose such as 8mg-12mg and even if u taper slow and long and skip days u tend to have symptoms more server and longer lasting PAWS..Is that true?...Because i thought maybe it doesn't make a difference if one has been on a high dose for few years or a low dose for few years but as long as they taper slow and long, which is true honesty.

Thanks Guys!....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:53 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
I can't state from personal experience, but I would tend to say that as long as the taper is long and slow there shouldn't be a difference between someone having been on 12 + mg vs someone on 2 mg.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group