It is currently Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:35 pm



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:02 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:21 am
Posts: 16
I know it's long but please bare w me...Hi, I was inducted yesterday morning and received my first dose of Subutex (not Suboxone), a 2mg pill at 10am and another 2 mg pill at 10:45am. I had been 72 hours clean and my drug screen was negative for all substances. My DOC was lortab 10, for the past 20 years with my use escalating this past year to 8-12 pills a day.

After the first 2mg pill about 15-20 minutes in I felt some relief however I was flushed feeling and really light headed. When the nurse came in to dose me again I told her how I felt and she assured me it was normal and instructed me to take a second pill. I did and she began going over my instructions which were to take 2 more doses, another 2mg at 5pm and another at 10-11pm then at 8am another-I am supose to take 4 pills a day until I return tomorrow at which time I will be switched to 16mg suboxone films, how many and so on I do not know.

This is my concern, after leaving the office after 4mg total of subutex, I progressively felt worse. I felt heavily sedated, not the warm fuzzy sedated feeling but the cold heavy head hurting sedated type feeling :( I never even took the third and fourth doses and since waking I still do not feel good, very groggy, heavy feeling, so I'm scared to take another dose. Another huge concern is when I woke up and went to the restroom, I felt like I could not pee, and in fact it was very difficult to do so. Does this have any relevance to the subutex?

So I have done 6 months of research on suboxone, pouring over this forum, hearing all the success, it gave me the courage to finally endure the required 72 hour withdrawal process, save up the 800 dollars needed for the induction and medication cost, and embark on this journey into being free of the hold lortab has held over me for 20 years....yet today, my birthday in fact, a day after my induction I'm terrified. I feel so sedated, headaches on and off, waves of on and off nausea, off balanced feeling-when walking, hard to focus my eyes when I can hold them open that is, hard to recollect words, is this normal? Please give me some advice because I'm really scared I've made a huge mistake. I have to be able to function and if this is the result I will have it will not work for me because I can do nothing at this point. What has went wrong? Was 4mg too much? When do I take another dose, since I threw the doctors dosing schedule out the window? Should I call my doctor or just wait until I see him tomorrow at 10 to discuss all these issues? Is there anything I can do to feel better?...somewhat human and not like a drug zonked zombie? I generally have a high tolerance to prescription meds, I'm no a lightweight, sadly, I have taken 12 lortab 10 in a 16 hour period of time and never missed a step BUT after 4 mg of Subutex, 23 hours later I'm feeling STILL heavily sedated, battling headaches and nausea.

Any input, advice,info will be Greatly appreciated. I am desperate for this treatment to work.
Thank you
Tabby


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:27 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:28 am
Posts: 666
Welcome to the forum Tabby!

Sorry to hear you aren't feeling so well. I have to admit I'm a bit stumped by your symptoms. Usually most everyone does quite well on a rather small dose such as 4mg at induction. You even admitted feeling a bit "flushed" and light headed which is not usually the case with everyone. That is somewhat of a mystery.

You did everything right by waiting the 72 hours which should have been plenty of time before taking that first dose of sub.. Based on what you report it really does sound as if the dose, even being 4mg total, is just too strong for you. Sub is very strong and powerful stuff, and can produce these symptoms if the dose is too high. I know many will say it's not that high, which it really isn't so it just doesn't make much sense why your feeling the way you are?

Now what do you do about it? I would not take any more sub and see the doctor tomorrow. Tell him exactly what has been happening. I would hope they tell you to discontinue taking any more of the Subutex and let most of it clear your system and see if you begin to feel better. At that point you could begin again with much smaller doses and see how you handle that. Maybe ask the doctor if you could begin by taking .25mg - .50mg pieces at first giving it a full hour to get in your system to see if that works. See how you feel after that and go from there. You might end up on much less than 4mg and feel ok at that point.

It does seem strange he started you with Subutex pills and wants to switch you to Suboxone film next. Usually it's the other way around, and most won't give Subutex anyway as it's pure Buprenorphine without the Naloxone added to it to deter abuse.. But that shouldn't have anything to do with the way your feeling.

My suggestion would be to just stop taking any more right now and talk with the doctor at your appointment tomorrow Tabby. You can use some Imodium for the nausea, and take what you usually take for the headaches. Try to get some food in your system to combat the sedated feeling, and make certain to drink plenty of fluids to keep yourself hydrated, and to help flush more of the sub out. I would suggest something like gatorade if you could tolerate that.

Maybe others have additional suggestions for you. I sure hope you get it figured out and please be sure to keep us informed. You will help many others that may be in a similar position at some point. Take care of yourself and I hope the doctor can get you feeling better. I wouldn't give up on the subs as it really and truly is a great medication. It certainly help save my life. I was on it about 3 years and now off. Give it another chance to work for you Tabby. I'm sure the doctor can get your dose right for you.

Good luck!

Karen xoxo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:52 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:21 am
Posts: 16
Thank you for your input. I am sitting here battling with the choice of taking half of the 2mg subutex or continue feeling this bad (on my birthday :( ) verses feeling worse if I take 1mg and it adds to my misery. I have a headache and I usually take Lortab for headaches...lol, so I'm guessing that would be a HUGE no no, even the nurse told me taking lortab while on this would make me really sick-like Antabuse with alcohol, so I've opted for a bc powder instead. Since I feel so heavy headed do you think if I take half a pill it would make the sedated feeling worse? I just feel so bad I don't know what to do, I've started getting EDGY though like the lortab withdrawals cause so I need to do something, what I don't know.

Again all input is greatly appreciated. Being completely new to this, this forums experience is invaluable!
Thanks,
Tabby


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:02 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:28 am
Posts: 666
Tabby,

Gosh, I meant to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY in my last post and it completely slipped my attention. I'm sorry it's not quite the BD you want at this time.

YES, I certainly meant no narcotics for headaches and should have mentioned it, but just assumed you figured that.

I hate to suggest taking sub at this point. Instead I would definitely call your doctor and let him know what's going on and see what he suggests. It's difficult to say what will happen if you do take another dose. It may make you feel better, but it also may not!

Give the doctor a shout and see what he suggests Tabby.

Let us know ok. Hope you feel better real soon.

Again, HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you! :D

Karen xoxo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:30 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1454
Hi Tabby,

Sorry you're not feeling too hot. It's pretty common for people to have a few days to a week of adjusting to this new medication. Kind of like starting a new anti-depressant. The benefits don't kick in right away (for a lot of people) and most of the time, people need to ride out the side effects while their systems adjust. Suboxone is a strong medication, like Karen suggested. And you may feel that you had a hefty habit, but 120mgs is not a whole lot in the scheme of things. So, I'm not totally surprised that you're feeling this way after dosing the first time.

I know it's your birthday and it sucks to feel this way, but try and keep things in perspective. Once you get through the hump, you'll even out and feel better on sub overall, than when you did on lortab. It's a more level feeling than the constant up and downs of a short acting opiate high.

As for what you should do.. you have two options. You can choose not to take anything more, and see how you do, or you can take a lower dose, like you mentioned, and push through this induction while your system adjusts. I would absolutely not take what your docs are recommending. Based on several things you said, it seems like they know very little about suboxone. You could try 1mg and see how that works. It needs to build up in your system at this point, if you plan on taking it for maintenance.

(If you plan on taking something for nausea, I'd take Pepto over Imodium..)

Let us know how it goes, hoping the best for you.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:09 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:21 am
Posts: 16
Thank you again for your input. It really helps. So, I have taken half a Subutex about 15 minutes ago and for now feel neither better or worse but it hasn't been long enough. Maybe that will curb the edginess I am starting to have and ease this headache.

I plan on being on the medication as long as necessary to successfully abstain from any hydrocodone based drugs. My doctor mentioned 2 years and potentially remaining on 1mg (after 2years) if needed, but in my opinion that is too far in the future to even address this early in. I do not even know if I will be able to take the medicine just yet. I do not know if this is just my system simply getting adjusted to the drug or some crazy adverse reaction that ends up preventing me from taking it. I hope not, but only time will let me know.

I agree that my doctor seems inadequately educated about the drug, which is very discouraging, but on the bright side I have this amazing forum to turn to :P

I have a call in to the doctor who is at lunch but hopefully returns my call shortly. I see him in the morning, 10am. I hope he will have some insight into what I am experiencing and know what to do. I do know, if I am not mistaken, he is planning on switching me from the Subutex to Suboxone films 16mg at that time. Which brings me to this question, if only 4mg of Subutex has me feeling this way (heavy sedated all around YUCK) then what in the world would 16mg of Suboxone film do? My gut is saying definitely not to agree to that milligram. I am unsure if they will dose me in office, or just write the new prescription for me to take at home. I think if I have to take the first dose there I will have to say I can't handle 16mg. What are your thoughts?

No one has addressed my first post, a question I posed, a bit embarrassing but has anyone else had the "urination" issue I am having? I feel like I can not pee, and it is difficult to do so. My husband looked up some information on side effects/adverse reactions/etc... and he did in fact find something about urinary retention, which is holding fluid....right? but that is not the same as difficulty urinating. It may be purely coincidence that the morning after my induction I am having difficulty urinating and simply have developed a kidney infection, or could it be some reaction to the Subutex?

Again, thank you all for your advice and thoughts. This forum has been here for many years throughout my battle without me ever being brave enough to even register, much less make a post, and especially go through induction. You have helped me through many a trying time without ever knowing. Even though I may feel pretty crappy, I am still thrilled to finally have found the strength to make this first HUGE step toward freedom and even more ecstatic, even feeling as awful as I do, NOT to have a desire to hunt down a dozen tabs today. It is amazing and who knows if it's because I feel so bad I couldn't muster the strength to go get any or because subutex is working, Point being this is one day out of the past twenty years that I have willingly chose not to consume any lortab, and it feels AMAZING.

Thank you for making me feel welcome and for all your invaluable input. You guys have heard it before I am sure, but this forum changes peoples lives, thank you for letting me be a part of that.
Tabby


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:13 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1454
Opiates in general can cause urinary retention, and we've had quite a few threads here about subs specifically and urinary retention. That is usually a sign of a high dose, from what I've gathered. Most people have talked about lessening symptoms with lower doses. You might want to stick to 1mg a day, for now, and see how you do. Then you and your doctor can adjust if necessary, but at least you give yourself a chance to get used to the subs on a small dose.

Can you pee at all? Or does it just take a few mins to get going?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:31 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:21 am
Posts: 16
It is extremely difficult to start peeing and then I can not pee very much at all. It very well could be a kidney/or bladder infection that just happened to coincide with my induction. If it continues through tomorrow morning I will just have to ask the doctor.

So with this medication (as with other opiates) there are issues of fluid retention? Surprisingly with lortab I never dealt with that. I guess because I have never experienced urinary retention, I do not know what it is like, what the symptoms are...so I don't know if that is what I am dealing with right now.

Thanks again,
Tabby


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:42 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1454
At least you can go a little, that's a relief, although I imagine the whole thing is quite annoying. Does it burn when you pee? Do you feel pressure like you constantly have to go, but nothing comes out? Those are usually UTI symptoms.

As for fluid/water retention and urinary retention, they are two different things. Fluid retention can happen anywhere in the body. Usually people who eat too much sodium have fluid retention. Fluid retention can happen when you don't drink enough water in general, it also happen to pregnant women frequently. Fluid retention happens for many, many reasons, and yes, medication (and opiates) can cause it.

Urinary retention is the inability to, or difficulty urinating.

Here are some pieces of info on the web:

Quote:
Urinary retention is the inability to empty the bladder. With chronic urinary retention, you may be able to urinate, but you have trouble starting a stream or emptying your bladder completely. You may urinate frequently; you may feel an urgent need to urinate but have little success when you get to the toilet; or you may feel you still have to go after you've finished urinating. With acute urinary retention, you can't urinate at all, even though you have a full bladder. Acute urinary retention is a medical emergency requiring prompt action. Chronic urinary retention may not seem life threatening, but it can lead to serious problems and should also receive attention from a health professional.


Quote:
Drug-induced urinary retention: incidence, management and prevention.
Verhamme KM, Sturkenboom MC, Stricker BH, Bosch R.
Source
Pharmacoepidemiology Unit, Department of Medical Informatics and Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Erasmus University Medical Centre, Rotterdam, The Netherlands. k.verhamme@erasmusmc.nl



Abstract
Urinary retention is a condition in which impaired emptying of the bladder results in postvoidal residual urine. It is generally classified into 'acute' or 'chronic' urinary retention. Because of the complex mechanism of micturition, many drugs can interact with the micturition pathway, all via different modes of action. Although the incidence of urinary retention, in particular acute urinary retention, has been well studied in observational studies and randomized controlled trials, data on the incidence of drug-induced urinary retention are scarce. Data from observational studies suggest that up to 10% of episodes might be attributable to the use of concomitant medication. Urinary retention has been described with the use of drugs with anticholinergic activity (e.g. antipsychotic drugs, antidepressant agents and anticholinergic respiratory agents), opioids and anaesthetics, alpha-adrenoceptor agonists, benzodiazepines, NSAIDs, detrusor relaxants and calcium channel antagonists. Elderly patients are at higher risk for developing drug-induced urinary retention, because of existing co-morbidities such as benign prostatic hyperplasia and the use of other concomitant medication that could reinforce the impairing effect on micturition. Drug-induced urinary retention is generally treated by urinary catheterization, especially if acute, in combination with discontinuation or a reduction in dose of the causal drug. Studies have been carried out examining the effects of preventive measures for anaesthesia-related urinary retention, both during and after surgery, particularly into the effect of using opioids in combination with non-opioid analgesic drugs on the incidence of postoperative urinary retention. Although combination therapy reduces the opioid-related adverse events, the effect on urinary retention yields contradictory results. This article reviews the literature on drug-induced urinary retention and focuses on its incidence, the different classes of drugs that have been associated with it, and options for its management and prevention


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:54 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:28 am
Posts: 666
Tiny's info has given you an idea what you can expect with urinary issues and/or retention.

Tabby wrote:
if I am not mistaken, he is planning on switching me from the Subutex to Suboxone films 16mg at that time. Which brings me to this question, if only 4mg of Subutex has me feeling this way (heavy sedated all around YUCK) then what in the world would 16mg of Suboxone film do? My gut is saying definitely not to agree to that milligram. I am unsure if they will dose me in office, or just write the new prescription for me to take at home. I think if I have to take the first dose there I will have to say I can't handle 16mg. What are your thoughts?

There is no way I would take a 16mg dose tomorrow. Maybe you could tell the doctor you don't want to be driving immediately after taking a dose and would rather take it when you arrive home. Maybe he would then give you the script and allow you to do that.

If not then maybe he would allow you to take a very small dose in the office and ask you to take more at home at which time you could decide exactly what you believe you should do?

Good luck!

Karen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:52 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
In all honesty, the amount of Lortab you were using wasn't that high. Taking 12 of the Lortab 10's in 16 hours may sound high to some, but it really isn't. I used to gobble those things 8 at a time every 5 or 6 hours.

Also, waiting 72 hours before you dosed Suboxone....Holy Wow!! Not only was your tolerance to opiates a bit on the low side with the amount of tabs you took daily, but you also waited 72 hours, lowering your tolerance even more. It's no wonder 4mg of Subutex smacked you like it did.

I've always found Subutex to be very strong in comparison to Suboxone, too. I was on Suboxone for a couple of years when the pharmacy made a mistake and switched my Suboxone with Subutex. That dang Subutex hit me so hard I was stunned. It was like being hit with a two by four.

I think you'll feel better on Suboxone, a very low dose of Suboxone. Maybe a couple of mg's?

Happy Birthday!! Mine was just a couple of weeks ago. November babies are always the smartest!! :D

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:03 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2803
Location: Southwest
Hi Tabby, and Happy Birthday!

All I can say is that I agree with most all of the responses you've received. IMO, you are on too high of dose. To feel better, you could actually skip a day with no ill effects and then take only what you need to stop the cravings, going up just a little each time.

My habit was similar to yours, a bit higher but close enough. When they gave me three 8 mg pills my blood pressure went through the roof, started sweating, and then my heart started skipping a beat. They freaked out and thought I was going to have a heart attack. I went home and promptly threw up. Later, I got referred to a Cardio Dr. who said I was fine. THAT is what the Bupe did to me from taking too much. Obviously no one had to tell me to taper down, I just did it and felt better and stabilized in about a week or so.

It may take awhile to feel normal again, but the day will come for you. It is always a hit and miss with Bupe until you settle on the right dose.

Glad to have you with us here on the forum. Stick around for a bit so everyone can get to know you better.

Welcome here and another Happy Birthday!

rule

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group