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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:11 pm 
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Thanks for the update. Good GOD this is bullshit. I am SO SORRY! I can't even imagine! I would be telling these people you have been nice, understanding, and you haven't gotten one single reasonable answer and you intend to sue the shit out of them if someone doesn't properly and intelligently answer a question for you. Sorry......but you tried the nice route. I would start getting demanding at this point. They can look in the baby's chart to figure out when they drug tested him. They can also figure out when they gave him morphine. It takes 2 god damned seconds if you have eyes. God it sucks dealing with all the idiots in this world. I would find legal services at the hospital and park my ass there until I got answers.

Note: sometimes I don't remember to breathe in OR breathe out before acting so you may not want to follow my advice :-)

Cherie


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:44 am 
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Just wanted to chime in and offer support. You're going through something very, very difficult and I know it must be driving you nuts. Hang in there, and PLEASE don't do anything drastic or stupid because you will just give these knobs more ammunition to use against you. Stay cool. Stay calm. Stick to the facts as much as possible.


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:45 am 
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Heres another update:

On Weds 3 doctors approached my husband and I and told us that they wanted to put the baby on phenobarbitol. We didnt tell them that we were ok with this, but merely agreed that we understood that this was the path that they wanted to take should things NOT improve. We went home for some lunch and called the hospital to make sure that they were not starting the med without us being there bc we had more questions. So when we got to the hospital, they tried to intimidate us and kept asking us why we were ok with it in the beginning and why we were not ok with it now. We told them that according to them, the baby was withdrawaling from opiates, and that phenobarb is typically used for sedative-hypnotic withdrawal. They told us they WERE wrong about the drug test the baby took, and that it was definately administered AFTER they gave him morphine, but that he WAS withdrawaling from benzos. I know this is not right bc I HARDLY EVER TOOK THE BENZOS.

So basically he is being held there for no good reason. The social worker from childrens services came to the house yesterday, and she told us that she needed to go to the hospital TODAY just so that she could SEE the baby, and so that she could tell the hospital that WHEN the baby is ready to come home, it is OK FOR HIM TO COME HOME WITH US. I was a little upset bc I was hoping that she would say that I had the right to pull my baby AMA. Its just so messed up the way they do the scoring on the chart they are using. For example, one of the things on the chart is "baby sleeps less than 1 hour after eating", "baby sleeps less that 2 hours after eating", etc. But if the baby gets fed and he falls asleep but then the nurse changes his diaper (which would make ANY baby wake up) and he wakes up, he gets a higher score. Even if he falls RIGHT BACK TO SLEEP AFTER THE CHANGING. Another thing is they keep giving him points for sucking his pacifier. He loves them and my 5 y/o daughter was the same way until she found her thumb. He does not excessively suck, but he does like the pacifier, so it just depends on the nurse. We have had one nurse for the past few nights that does everything by the book in order to keep these kids from getting bad scores. She always makes sure they get changed and THEN they eat, etc.etc. She told us this is just ridiculous, and that the baby needs to come home. She said our baby is no different than any other baby in there, and that the last thing he needs is phenobarb. She also said they had been giving him scores that are higher than they should be. She said he should never be higher than a 3 in her opinion bc she does not think he is withdrawaling like they say, and that the chart is unfortunately VERY SUBJECTIVE.

We want to sue the shit out of that hospital SO BAD for taking away our first precious days with our baby. I feel like a helpless mom, because moms are supposed to be able to fix things for their child, and here I am not being able to do ANYTHING and my parental rights have been thrown right out the window.

Well I guess thats all for now...I will keep everyone posted on what happens today.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:43 am 
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I have kept up with this thread and have a lot to say......but limited time. You say you are helpless and you feel there is nothing you can do.......people have suggested this and so far it hasn't happened......GET A LAWYER.............NOW. Just like addicts-we try to be our own doctors and now we try to handle things we are not qualified to handle. Every part of me as a father wants to go off and let everyone in that hospital know they don't treat me or my baby that way.....I would call the news media...I would go off on everyone and threaten everyone.....that is the addict in me. The lifestyle I lead today ....I would get a lawyer to do your talking and you will be taking your baby home........I feel for you......I pray for you....but please get someone who knows how to deal with this......hospitals don't like to be sued.......and are not intimidated by you....but they are by someone who glady and willingly will take their ass to court.........Good Luck


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:12 am 
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What ReRaise said PLEASE GET A LAWYER! I am so sorry about what is happening. The one nurse you were talking about who agrees your baby needs to go home. Confront her and ask her to help you. I worked as an MA but in family practicec, but I do know that if a patient asked me for help I would do anything in my power to help them , esp when I agreed with them and felt the dr was in the wrong. I went to bat for many patients, esp when it came to talking to the dr to him to see their point of view. Nurses can be great communication between the patient (or in your case parents) and the dr. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:51 am 
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Hi again StudentRN,
I don't know how You haven't lost your frigging mind?????? I think I would have... This has to be an awful strain on you & your Husband. I'm sure it's hard But try to keep your Recovery in mind. With all your going thru I'm sure your disease is dieing to strike.... Stay Strong and lean on any support system that you can including US!!!!!
When you finally get your Baby out of there Please, Please, Please, Don't let this hospital "Off the Hook". If you feel up to it Fight them so another family will not have to go thru what you have!!! I think I would have a tendency to say Well I got my Baby back just drop it..... That would Suck!!!! This place needs to be held accountable for what they have put your Family thru.... There was no need of this. Well I just wanted to let you know that I am Pulling for you. Hang in there you should be on the way HOME with your Baby SOON.... :D .
Take Care,

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:03 am 
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Hi again StudentRN,

Thanks so much for keeping us posted. It really is horrific what they're doing to you and your family. I don't know how they can live with themselves. Like others have said, don't let them intimidate you. I support the idea of getting a lawyer as well. They need to be called to the carpet on their unprofessional behavior and how they are affecting lives. God forbid they keep doing this to other people. You should be commended for your recovery efforts, instead you're being punished and judged.
Just know that we're here for you. I'm glad you have this forum to express some of what you're feeling - I hope it's helping you.

On a positive note, at least you now have a nurse on your side. One nurse may not be a lot, but it's far better than no one in that place being on your side. If I were you I'd keep my own journal of the baby's progress/symptoms. That way you can compare and contrast it to the hospital's subjective ratings. Just a thought in case you need it down the line. Can you get copies of their ratings? Maybe a pattern will be evident depending on who's rating the baby? In case you do sue, the more documentation you have the better.

I sure hope today is a more positive day. Hang in there - all the best to you and your husband during this difficult time. We're pulling for you and the baby!

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:05 pm 
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I've got to say, at this point, I tend to agree with reraise - I think it's time you got a qualified attorney involved. If anything, he will protect YOUR legal interests as much as work to get your baby out of that house and into your home. Believe me, hospitals have plenty of attorneys working for them, you should arm yourself with a qualified advocate that knows the law, knows the rules, knows what rights you have as parents and knows what buttons to push to get the hospital to react in a way that provides the outcome you are looking for.


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:55 pm 
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Hi everybody-
I am really sorry for the situation that you are in, however, if you did take benzo's and tested positive in urine CPS will get involved. Benzo's as i am sure you know are very very high risk to take during pregnancy and can cause major birth defects. That is why when they told me my test came back positive, I immediately requested a bloood test to prove I wasn't on them. I am confused because you said you were accidentally given one dose of klonidine, and that you occasionally took benzo's. One dose wouldn't show up, but repeated use would. If you got hem through a Doctor, that is horrible because I don't even think the crappy ones would prescribe benzo's to pregnant women. You must have been aware that it was dangerous. CPS will now be in your life because of the benzo's. They did the same house chack, blah blah thing with me, until I got the blood test results back proving they were not in my system.
I am not trying to make you feel bad,but taking benzo's is as bad to the baby as street drugs. I can't believe you didn't read up on this. Before I had my son, I knew what would happen, how long he owuld have to stay, the scoring system, and what our rights our. And again your baby would have been in the hospital for 72 hours after birth to monitored regardless.
I feel bad for you having to leave your baby, but your story about sometimes taking benzo's changes things.
CPS will require you to get a drug assessment and kepp a file on you because you took benzo's knowingly while pregnant. I can not begin to list the deformities and fatalities it can cause. SO, yeah the nurses are looking at you like junkies albeit unfairly, but, I dealt with it too, except I was able to prove to CPS the hospital was wrong.

And no lawyer will help... the baby is under hospital care and taking it away AMA will only get the baby taken from you. I was not allowed to breastfeed my son because of a FALSE POSITIVE BENZO test, so I am sorry to say that I feel less sympathy for you knowing that you took benzo's. I have super anxiety and went without for ten months, so there is no excuse. BUT you are atill in my prayers and my advice is still to be nice (PRETEND) to the staff. The chart is subjective, but the more involved and aware and around you are at scoring time, it will make all the difference.
Best of Luck
Katie


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:30 pm 
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Wow Katie….that was a way harsh post!!!! I understand your frustration, and it comes out that she was taking high doses of benzos throughout the pregnancy, then I will probably feel the same. But, in reading her post, the most specific comment was: “I am prescribed a low dose of klonopin which is a benzo, and I rarely take it. I took a klonopin about 5 days before delivery, just .5 mgs. and I tested positive for it.” Based on that, I don’t know who prescribed it, how often she took it, what the conversation was like b/t her and her doctor about taking it, what kind of research she did about taking it….or really anything other than that she took a Klonopin in her last trimester (I mention this b/c you went into a diatribe about birth defects, but these have only been associated with women taking HIGH doses during the first trimester and, based on my research, the link is not a clear one).

So, as far as I know, she wasn’t taking it regularly enough to cause severe dependence on the part of the baby. And, again, I am simply extrapolating from the information given.

I think that my major point is that we should be EXTREMELY careful about judging people until we know the whole story. We need to remember that we are getting bits and pieces of the story, presented by a frantic and stressed out woman….so maybe we don’t know the whole story? And maybe she didn’t tell us everything the first time….can you blame her? Can you imagine walking in her shoes?

Also, I think it is interesting that THIS behavior was so repugnant to you, as opposed to all the other horrific things that most of us on this site have done. I stole pain medication from my dying father…and I have posted about it….and I didn’t get anywhere NEAR the hateful remarks that you directed at SudentRN. Specifically, we are so quick to defend pregnant women who take sub or methadone, and they are putting their babies at risk too…but we jump all over her for taking a Klonopin occasionally? Why?

I understand your anger and, again, if I find out that she was abusing benzos throughout her pregnancy, I will agree with the decision of CPS (but I still probably wouldn’t attack her….I would hope that, of all people, fellow addicts would understand doing horrible things because of addiction).

You have every right to your opinion. This is just a difficult time for her, and I really want to be certain of the facts before I add to her stress or make things worse.

Elizabeth

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 1:34 pm 
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I'm sorry, Katie, but I have to agree with Elizabeth. There's not a lot I can add to what she's already said, but please keep in mind this is a support forum. And yes, you have the right to your opinion, no one is saying you don't. I just don't see any positive coming out of your post. I see only negative. I'd hate for newcomers, guests, lurkers, etc., to think that we don't support each other here. Please consider this and what Elizabeth said.

StudentRN: Please take Katie's words with a grain of salt. Know that we're here to support you and your recovery. I hope the support so many of us have provided will offer you some sense of well-being and belonging. Let us know how you're doing, we do care.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 3:25 pm 
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I'll just add in that I agree with both Elizabeth and Hatmaker. When I first read the post from Katie I got the feeling that taking a Benzo was being equated the same as smoking crack or shooting heroin. I went looking for information and was somewhat surprised to find that the jury still seems to be out when it comes to the risks and more so the relationship with birth defects and benzo use. Many things I read seemed to indicate that there is no real good evidence on either side of this issue. The studies I found were in the 10 to 20 year old range so I thought that perhaps I didn't have the current information and therefore decided not to post anything since I really was not sure. In taking a second look, Elizabeth's comments seem to be very accurate in that birth defects, if there is even a relationship, seem to be tied to the first trimester. Certainly, nothing I was able to find carried the level of concern that seemed to be portrayed in Katie's post. Here is some of what I found:

"There is controversy concerning the safety of benzodiazepines in pregnancy. While they are not major teratogens, uncertainty remains as to whether they cause cleft palate in a small number of babies and whether neurobehavioral effects occur as a result of prenatal exposure."

"The data regarding the use of the benzodiazepines (including Klonopin, Xanax, Ativan, and Valium) during pregnancy are somewhat controversial. Studies suggest there may be an increased risk of cleft lip and palate associated with first trimester exposure to these medications. This risk appears to be relatively small. Early reports suggest that the risk is about 0.7%; however, a recent study suggests that the risk may be even lower than that."

"Pooled data from cohort studies showed no association between fetal exposure to benzodiazepines and the risk of major malformations or oral cleft."


Those three direct quotes represent the typical information I was able to find on this subject. I don't know about you, but when I read these things, I don't at all get the same sense of concern that Katie seems to have about benzo use during pregnancy. The statement was made that StudentRN should have read up on this. Well, I just did, and I'm not so sure that I have any better understanding of the risks than I did before - which might make sense because it really does seem like the jury is still out on this topic.

I don't know why this is such a hot button issue for you Katie - other than the fact that you first tested positive for it yourself. Perhaps you have some data/research that I have not seen that more clearly supports your level of concern. By all means, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, it seems like this is one of these areas in medicine (like many/most) where we just are not all that sure of what the real truth is. Certainly it does not seem like the level of evidence and support exists with which to so severely chastise a mother who happened to take her legitimate benzo prescription while pregnant. At least I don't think there is.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Hi rn,

I have not had the chance to read through this thread yet, but just did, and I am so sorry that you are going through all of this. I can't even imagine how horrible this must be for you, not being able to take your baby home.

I'm only hoping that we have not heard from you today because your busy with your new baby at home, and NOT because you feel that you are no longer getting support here. I also took some time to research any links between benzos and pregnancy and could not find much more than donh found.

This has to be terribly confusing for you and your husband, one day being told the baby is withdrawing from opiates, the next day from benzos, one nurse/doctor telling you one thing, another nurse the opposite. To me it sounds like they were expecting a problem, but have made their own errors and now they are trying to cover it up, or going to extremes to make sure there is no problem in case you get a lawyer. I really hope this is all resolved by now. If it is not resolved, please do get a lawyer. You are going to need one either way.

One thing I would do for certain is spend as much time as possible at the hospital with your baby so you know what is going on at all times.

Please let us know how you and baby (and dad) are doing today. We do care very much and will offer as much support as we can give.

Thinking of you,
Ginger


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:39 pm 
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Student RN-- please IM me ASAP so that we can talk about this case. I have a number of articles about opiate dependence and pregnancy, including articles about buprenorphine treatment during breast feeding, delivery, and pregnancy. I have had a number of patients deliver babies while on bupe, and this is simply nuts. I might be able to help you find the right lawyer, and I would love to participate in a lawsuit against those idiots.

I leave tomorrow for Washington DC for a 'summit' between NIDA and SAMHSA over buprenorphine treatment. I would love to bring this situation to the attention of the people at the meetings-- who are the leaders of the government and professional agencies that research and regulate buprenorphine.

I may have missed it, but let me know in your message where you are located as well.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:36 pm 
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All right.....All right......All right

I hope she gets this message and reaches out to you. Dr J I need you to kick some ass and get this shit straightend out...I prayed you would see this and get fired up......Let me know if you need me....I will be glad to carry your bags.......
and shoes......

Help her get that baby home......

Jim


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Now they have pissed off Dr."J"......
Go get 'em Doc. I think this shows that the SUPPORT that we are trying to allow out here is working...
I hope She gets the Doc's message and gets him involved! Maybe we can educate some of these people on how this Drug works???
Best of luck to ALL

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 12:57 am 
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This is a nightmare to say the least. Have you consulted an attorney yet? If not, you need to ASAP! I cannot believe the mess your family is dealing with- another thing. Get in touch with the social worker's supervisor and find out what she knows about the situation. There is very strict guidelines in social work practice and it sounds like you were duped. Talk to the supervisor and make sure the person you are dealing with is within the boundaries of the law.
I know you are overwhelmed, but you have to stay on top of this situation. I cannot see how they could want to administer any drug, especially methadone - that would not be happening if it were me!
Get with a lawyer NOW!!! Don't wait until something terrible happens. You may find that you do have the right to remove your child right now. It may take an emergency court hearing, but you have rights that are being violated.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:44 am 
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Katie,

I am prescibed Klonopin in very small doses but like I sid, I rarely take it. When I got pregnant, I was being prescribed 2mg's of Klonopin daily and 50 mg's of Zoloft daily. The doc did not want to pull me off the meds bc there would be a high risk for miscarriage. I weaned myself off of the Zoloft, and began to only take the Klon when necessary. When the case worker asked me what drugs I take I did not mention the Klonopin bc I hardly ever take it. She told me that they would have to test the baby and that if he tested positive then they would alert CPS. I told her that was fine bc I was prescribed the drug by a doctor who knew I was pregnant. So the baby tested negative for benzo's, but tested pos for opiates (I tested neg for opiates). That was when they contacted CPS, bc the jumped to conclusions and ASSUMED that the baby tested pos bc I was abusing opioids. Because they did that, I was unable to decide how my baby was cared for medically, and my rights as a parents were stolen from me bc of THEIR MISTAKE.

Long story short, my doctor and I felt that the benefits outweighed the risks, especially since most of the damage DOES happen in the first trimester.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:50 am 
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Hey StudentRN, I'm so glad you came back. How are things going for you and your family? I know I don't know you but I've been worried for you and you've been in my thoughts. Please let us know how things are going.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 2:03 am 
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WE GOT TO TAKE OUR BABY HOME ON SATURDAY NIGHT!!!!!!!!!! :P :lol: :P :lol: They told us on Friday night that he would be discharged the next day so we went in Saturday all excited about bringing him home and they told us they would not discharge him bc he lost 2 ounces the day day before. We would not leave him again no matter what it would take. We went and talked to a patient advocate person and she sent the resident to talk to us. She told us WHY they were keeping him, and said they would not release him. I told her the exact same thing happened with our daughter, and that we felt much more comfortable caring for him at home. She said that he could come home the next day but I told her that we DID NOT believe her, and that this was NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!! Then she mentioned that the CPS case was CLOSED so I said "Great! Then I will just remove him AMA. So she glared at ny husband and myself and then said she would go and talk to the other doctor about it. When she came back she said that they would compromise and said that if he could gain 1 ounce by 8:30 that night we could take him home. So he gained not 1, but 2 ounces and now hes home. The reason why he lost the weight in the first place is bc he was not eating as much as he had been before that. Since being at home, his appetite has came roaring back, and I am confident he will be a little chunky monkey here very soon :wink: I think I was right from the very beginning...all he needed was a ittle bit of extra TLC.

We have not contacted a lawyer yet. We want to request our medical records first and go from there. Is it illegal what they did? I mean as far as jumping to conclusions about the drugs and alerting CPS which took our rights away? My husband and I are both BEAT DOWN and feel as if a whole week and a half of our lives has been stolen from us. I wish I would have gotten Dr.J's message sooner so that he could have spoken up about this :roll:

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