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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:26 pm 
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First, I apologize for this partial re-post (see Butrans Patch for withdrawal post), but I didn't want this one important issue to get buried in a discussion about Butrans patches for tapering.

OK, so here is where I need some immediate help...

It's now been 6 days since I took any Sub, if you don't count the one tiny sliver of a Sub 2 mg strip that I took two night ago in order to stop the HORRIBLE anxiety/panic attacks that I have had every night since my second day of jumping off at 1/8 mg.

But I refused to take any more Sub as that would only prolong the withdrawal. And after 5 years on this drug, while having benefits in terms of pain management for chronic back (two surgeries) and neck (5 things wrong with neck, one of which caused permanent nerve damage—CRPD—in my left hand ), it is my personal opinion that the benefits don't outweigh the side effects (emotional numbness, detachment, obsessive thoughts and crazy dreams).

But I'm at a loss to know what to do. I am afraid to even go to sleep knowing that I will wake up in a few hours feeling like I can't breathe, can't keep still, full of anxiety and feel like I am suffocating. I even tried sticking a fan in my face and sucking in the cold air to help me breathe.

HERE'S WHAT I REALLY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THIS ANXIETY/INSOMNIA THING AND WHAT I CAN DO ABOUT IT WITHOUT RESORTING TO TAKING ANXIETY MEDS EVERY NIGHT...

So, would someone "in the know" please, please explain why I am having this torturous anxiety/insomnia attacks at night but not during the day? Even two Lorezpams (0.5 mg x 2) and one Clonidine (0.1 mg) isn't enough to stop this attack completely. Only slightly.

During the day my withdrawal symptoms are mostly manaegable...difficult, very difficult, but still doable. (Compared to the HELL I went through when I jumped off at 2 mgs two years ago...twice.) My neck and shoulders are hit the worst through this withdrawal (Level 7-8 pain)—I'm sure because that is where my very real physical/medical issues originate-hence pain concentrates there) and irritability during day. I already passed through the sneezing, loss of appetite, loose stools stage...that part was was quick and mild, thank God.

Please, can anyone help? I REALLY need to sleep at night so I can help my 93-year-old father during the day. He has dementia and obviously I need to be on my game with him. He needs constant vigilance.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:48 am 
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I wouldn't call myself "in the know" by any means but look at it this way: You were on sub for 5 YEARS. Six days is very soon to expect to be sleeping through the night. The good news it it will eventually pass! The more you stress about it, the worse it's likely to be. Are you able to do any exercise? I tire myself out as much as i can with long bike rides about 4 hours before bed. Also remember that lack of sleep will not kill you and you will eventually be tired enough to sleep after a few night of minimal sleep. 1/8 mg is .125mg or 125 micrograms. While being small in comparison to maintenance doses, it's still a considerable dose and your body is adjusting to normalize itself. Especially after 5 whole years of depending on sub. For a reference, opiate naive patients get doses as low as 50 micrograms if i'm not mistaken (for pain etc). Time will heal you and you will get better every day!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:16 pm 
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I guess I would want to know: How long is long. I may "survive" on little sleep but I have to do more than that taking care of a 93-year father with dementia.

I realize that the insomnia/anxiety thing varies from person to person, and, as you say, length of time on Sub but it would be helpful to hear of other people's experience in how long it took for them to have their sleep to return to normal.

This morning I took a long bike ride and will take another one around 4:00 (before it gets dark). But I don't want to ride in the dark so I guess I will have to supplement that bike ride with a gym workout (yuk...hate the gym...boring!)

Long hikes work beautifully for me. I live in area (NoCal) where there hiking trails everywhere so that should not be a problem.

In terms of other natural vs chemical solutions, I'm going to buy some Benadryl, magnesium and maybe even melontin. Wondering if Tylenol PM would help? Or would I be crazy groggy the next day?

Thoughts/comments/suggestion? I REALLY want to avoid taking the anti anxiety med and low-dose Vicodin tonight. But I do HAVE to sleep at night. For me, it's not an option. Plus I have this BIG interview for a staff writer job coming up and I have to really be on my game for that.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:06 pm 
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I remembered something Dr. Junig said a while ago and was able to dig it up.  It may be discouraging but getting off opiates is not easy as I'm sure you know.  Hopefully others who stopped sub can chime in with their experience.   I haven't jumped fully myself (had a failed jump at .25 mg) I'm on a long slow 'finish when I finish' taper. Currently at .09mg - I reduce about 10% per 2 weeks.

suboxdoc wrote:
...withdrawal from ANY opioid is usually a 6-8 week process. 


Source:
how-long-will-before-withdrawals-start-t8841.html


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:19 pm 
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Everything Glen Bee said is pretty spot on. I will also add that it helps to be overly realistic about the situation, so I'm glad that GB threw out the 6-8 week number. I'm a firm believer that when you expect the worst, and can be pleasantly surprised by the results (or symptoms,) it helps you get through the process better, mentally speaking. I've noticed that when people come here expecting to be close to 100% after a week, they get really annoyed, discouraged, angry, etc.. at every bump in the road. This doesn't help at all. I'm not saying this is you, just that it's better to expect the worst/ longest detox and be pleased when things turn around quicker. I know it's hard. Getting off opiates (any kind) is the worst process ever and one that can't be cheated. You have to put your soldier hat on and go into battle. Sleep will return but even that is a slow process and it can be hard to see the progress when you're in the middle of it. Just keep hanging on the best you can.

Hot baths really helped me when I'd wake up in the middle of the night. They are calming and relaxing, and I'd usually be able to fall back asleep again, even if only for a bit. Also used ear buds to listen to mellow, calming music on really low volume. I don't know what I would've done without those two tools.

I hope you start to level out soon.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Good advice from tinydancer. I remember someone else posting, maybe Romeo, that day 6 or thereabout was the peak of the acute withdrawal from sub for them. So if that's correct you probably are getting past the worst of it now! And of course you aren't going to suffer nearly as much as someone coming off a 180mg oxy habit but the worst withdrawal is always the one you're in. I also stole that saying from someone else here :) Hang in there!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:08 pm 
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All good and helpful advice/input. Thanks all!

In my attempt NOT to take any Lorezpam (which doesn't work anyway...even tripling the dosage), or Vicodin (very low dose but it does work to put me to sleep) I went to the drug store to get Benadryl, then to Whole Foods to buy Melatonin and L-Tyrosine. (Still need to get some B6.) And I will take a tsp of Magnesium before bed time as well.

I also bought a spa pillow for the bath since I might just have to spend the night in my bathtub. At least that is what some people claim they did....for real. Though I am not sure what one does when the hot water turns cold. Then you just have to wake up again. Perhaps someone should invent a special tub for people withdrawing from opiates where an automatic sensor drains the cold water one side of the tub while filling it up on the other with hot/warm water. Ha!

One thing I was told about Benadryl by a pharmacist/friend. Don't take it right before you go to bed but wait until after midnight—something to do with the histamine cycle in the morning or some such thing.

I will let you know if these natural remedies work. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:58 pm 
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Man, this is tough. :( Still little-to-no sleep, though now it's "just" insomnia vs. the extreme anxiety (for which I am grateful) that went with it. None of the natural remedies had any affect whatsoever. Money down the drain on that one.

Hardest part (besides the insomnia) is not knowing whether the acute pain in my neck and shoulders will eventually subside to a manageable level with just prescription Advil. Because clearly the Sub covered up most of that that pain for five long years. (Seven if you count the Vicodin and other prescription pain killers before that.) If I thought I would have to live with this level of pain, I would go back on the Sub.

But then I hear of people with chronic pain who say that once the Sub was out of their system their pain was "not that bad at all." What—and/or who—to believe?

Been looking for a support group. Not keen on AA for reasons I would rather not share. I went to one like AA called "Higher Power" and I did not like it all. No sireee. It's one thing to share your struggles; it's another to dwell on all the negative, sordid details of your life and almost revel in doing so. Can't explain it, but I find most of these people to be rather self-indulgent. I found no comfort or relatability in what they were saying.

Maybe I'm too sophisticated but that whole "I felt like shit and my eldest boy came home usin' and takin' money from me and it made me think of my ex-husband and his drinkin' and my first husband who..." was like something out of a bad country song. :roll:

On top of that, the whole setting was not exactly conducive to wanting to open up and share anything. I had to sit on a hard metal chair for over two hours (while going through withdrawal)—first listening to a really bad jazz trio (nothing worse than bad jazz) that I guess was their idea of "music therapy." Trouble is, after listening to this group (where the lead singer—aka aging '50s beatnik with a beret and long gray stringy hair—kept making really bad jokes) I felt like I needed therapy from the therapy...if you get my drift.

Then a black preacher (who had been incarcerated and was a heavy drug user) started a preachin.' It wasn't that he wasn't good and that his message wasn't valid...I just wasn't in the mood for "performance preaching." His message was very stylized and frankly, a bit predictable, even though as I say, his message was good. But having never been a hard core drug addict, nor a convict in the "Big House" I just couldn't relate to him. I'm the type of person who relates to teaching/preaching that is non-theatrical, yet still powerful in its sincerity and shared wisdom from God. In other words, relatable to the average person.

After the music then about 5 people from this 150 people or so crowd started sharing...on and on and on. It just went from bad to worse. At the end (thank God for the end of the hard metal chair), they all formed a big circle and held hands at which point I made my exit and broke through the Kumbaya-esque circle (not easily...they seemed to want to hold me captive) and left...completely discouraged. :(

Fortunately my sister goes to a group called "Celebrate Recovery" that sounds a lot more positive, intimate, personalized and encouraging than this "Higher Power" group did. I'm still trying to find one close to me on a night that I can go due to my having to help take care of my 93-year-old father with dementia.

All that to say that I KNOW that I need other people (beside all you wonderful and supportive people) to help me through this. I have been rather a hermit these past 10 years (a solitary writer's curse) and it hasn't done well by me. So, I'm joining a local church though again, it's challenging with my father who needs constant care. (Though thankfully it's only part time that I take care of him.)

Also, I am afraid (or too proud?) to share my struggles with drug dependence and recovery with "normal" people...I'm afraid I will be judged or dismissed. :oops: A valid concern? You tell me.

And that, as they say, is that. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:54 pm 
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sounds like you got stuck at the wrong group man, i go to celebrate recovery ( 2 seperate groups) every week and it has changed my life for the better...they are in fact smaller and more intimate groups most times, and Christ centered..they practice the 8 Principles which are based on the beautitudes from the gospel of matthew and they relate to the 12 steps and put a biblical twist on them. definately go to a few of those and i'll bet they'll become a part of your weekly schedule. also, congrats on joining a church too, once i went back to church and got saved this past fall, everything started falling into place for me, it was the turning point of my recovery and becoming a Christian was the most positive lifestyle change that i needed to help me move forward and not look back...take care man, i hope you get through the insomnia...it seems thats always the most common "paws" type symptom once we're off all substances and when i went through it in the past after stopping subs, no sleep aid really worked...what did work the best was physically draining my body through work and excersise all day as much as possible. hope this helps. God bless - tony

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:53 pm 
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Thanks so much, Tony. I really hope to find a Celebrate Recovery group that meets on a day/night I can actually attend. I'm a believer as well, though I may have not sounded like one with my cynical/jaded remarks about that "Higher Power" group. But honestly, all that group seemed to be was a "Christian" version of AA...and not a good one at that. I'm sure they meant well, but do they really think that someone coming for the first time would actually want to come back? You go in feeling scared and go out feeling disillusioned. In fact an actual AA would have been better because it probably would have not been in a "sit in a pew and listen to a sermon" format, I'm thinking.

Anyway, I do appreciate your support. I really need it! I hope you will be around if I have a question or just need encouragement. There are many helpful people here. ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:00 pm 
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I do have one question. And please, people, don't think I'm looking for an excuse to use Vicodin.

My doctor prescribed 5-325 strength Vicodin pills for breakthrough withdrawal pain. Thus far, I have not taken more than one a day—when my neck and shoulders start to really, really hurt (where originating physical/medical problem originated). I get absolutely no buzz or feeling of euphoria when I take this one pill but it does take the edge off my Level 7/8 pain. This enables me to help my father, work on my business or any other event/function where I have to be on top of my game (or close to it).

Question is this: Will take this ONE 5-325 Vicodin a day (I only have 10 left) really prolong my Sub withdrawal time? If so by how much? As a reminder, I jumped off at 1/8 mg of a 2 mg film strip.

Again, I'm not trying to trick myself into using pain pills again...just trying to continue to earn a living and help my 93-year-old father with dementia while going through this highly unpleasant process on 2-3 hours of sleep per night!

Thanks anyone for help with this. I do value everyone's experience and insight. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:16 pm 
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its understandable that you'd have those feelings about that group, certain groups dont work for everybody..i've never been to any other besides celebrate recovery and i honestly dont think ill ever go to any other type of group. i'm content with celebrate and there are several different groups at different churches in my area so im able to "get around" to different meetings but stay in the celebrate recovery as well....they are so welcoming and loving and caring, they dont judge. they dont keep rank or anything like that. they dont try to fix anyone, they are strictly a support source, a great one at that! i hope you can find one to fit in your schedule.


as far as the vics, [SIGH] :) i really dont know man...i'd like to be able to say youre ok, that im happy you are able to ease your pain and stay moderated to the 5mg a day, because at that dose i really dont think thats going to prolong any withdrawl, maybe someone else will have a different outlook....but my true gut is feeling major concern here man....you're really playing with fire....i do have a lot of upper body pain due to being a concrete finisher for 12 years and started with pain pills to get through my day, once things escalated and i was fully addicted to opiates i could march right through the work day like a soldier. but once shit hit the fan and i got clean in september ive been on suboxone alone for the past 4 months. the suboxone keeps me with ZERO WITHDRAWL and ZERO CRAVINGS but doesnt really help much with pain, which i have daily tendinitis in my left elbow along with other aches and pains...but honestly, i just deal with it....after the hell ive been through with opiates this pain hurts but is tolerable...

so thats just one option to take into consideration man...i would really think about what you're doing and think about it this way...its only 5 mg, the amount of benefit you may be getting out of it could probably be replaced with a few ibuprofens or naproxens throughout the day...just having them with you and taking them daily, really leaves you with a potentially huge wildfire risk on your hands....maybe not now or even this month but all it will take is ONE DAY for you to just slip up with your disipline and take a few more and BAM! you start to slide right down that chute again...

last spring i ended up managing to get 2 weeks of clean time cold turkey....but the cravings were crazy...one friday i got just a couple hours worth of opana....and the next day said "nope, im done for now again. i got my fix, im good".....next friday "ok its the weekend, lets have fun TONIGHT!, thats it" and was fine again...went on only using 1 day a week for like 2 months....then one day i was supposed to get my opanas and was waiting all day for em!! once the dude came i was fiending so bad that i got double what i was getting, and it was enough to last me 3 days instead of the 1.....you can see where it went from there....after that i w/d that week and went right back into using regularly again.

it was a huge lesson to me: even though things are fine again, and I AM BACK IN CONTROL...it doesnt mean that my disease went away, and i can just casually use opiates again....i need to remind myself that i will lose that battle - this month, this year, 10 years down the road, FOREVER...thats how it is for me man, and i would just be very cautious and really think this through if i was you man..

now, as for your doctor, to prescribe you vics to deal with sub w/d......something ain't right with that picture...

ill be here to support you buddy, and answer any questions that i can...and the one's i cant answer, i know everyone else here together will have the answer for almost anything.

God bless you my friend - tony

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:18 am 
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Hi Tony, thanks for sharing your story...and especially your struggles. Sounds like you have a real "honest estimate of yourself."

I'm sorry that you're in pain though—really and truly. I hate pain...it's so debilitating! I mean, what do really feel like doing when you're in such misery? Answer: Nothing!

It's been two weeks of no Sub. When will this end? I know, I know, I'm supposed to just "soldier on."

Still taking one Vicodin every day. Plus 3 prescription Advils 3 times a day. My body still feels like lead—looking for that "incredible lightness of being" vs. feeling like I have a ton of armor on and my neck and shoulder is in a vise.

The insomnia continues, though thankfully, the horrible panic/anxiety attacks have lessened considerably. I just can't sleep!

Been bicycling and going to gym. That has helped but it's a lot easier to just get on a bike and ride along the water when you're feeling like sh*t then it is to go to a gym. Something about being in the Great Oudoors with the sun and wind on your face and that liberating feeling of forward movement that makes the gym feel like a torture chamber!

So, at night, when I can't sleep, I listen to worship music and teaching podcasts, as well as the Bible on tape. I figure if I have to lie awake I may as well feed my spirit while I'm at it. :) It helps quite a bit...I'm believing it will soon translate into my body feeling better as well.

Thank you my friend...your support, encouragement and advice is invaluable!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:53 am 
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Nothing working on the sleep thing. Tried all the drugs—prescription and otherwise. And the baths. And the music. Getting two hours sleep at the most. Going crazy.

Feel like I should check into a hospital on my 3 days off from taking care of my elderly father just so I can sleep. Maybe they could give me a powerful sedative so I can sleep for 2 days at least and maybe that would break the insomnia/anxiety cycle?

Any thoughts on this?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:49 pm 
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You are getting so much wonderful advice and support, and I can literally feel your pain and anxiety through your words. I will offer just a few ideas/suggestions that helped me get through it all.

I might suggest you not be too quick to give up on NA or AA. Those groups help save my life along with Suboxone and a therapist. Yes there are many horror stories about those groups, and sadly some are true I will admit. There are addicts in attendance that are court-ordered to be there and could care less what is being said. And there are some that go in search of drugs in the parking lot. That crap does happen. But there are also many there that WANT to be there like I did/do (I still go each week) and only want to help.

There is nothing better in my opinion than to be able to talk face-to-face with other addicts that truly understand what's it's like. You will meet many others that are in your same position. You don't have to say a word if you don't want to. Just sit and listen and speak when your fully ready. You will connect with someone and you can begin telling your story and you won't believe the help you will receive. I would only suggest you give it an honest effort. Try one meeting and if isn't the place for you try another meeting. They are everywhere these days. It could make the difference.

As for your pain issues....what I have found that truly works great is combining 2 Extra-Strength Tylenol tablets with either 2 Motrins or Ibuprofins. I got that suggestion from a doctor and he said combining the two together produced a more powerful pain relief without the narcotic. And it honestly works great for me when needed. I twisted my ankle jogging a while back and that made the difference for me personally. Give it a shot and hopefully you may receive the same results as I have.

The sleep is a tricky thing for us addicts. Usually time is the only thing that really makes the difference. I'm not in favor of prescription sleep aides myself so what works for me is again combining Melatonin and Sleepy Time Tea. Melatonin comes in 3, 5, and 10mg doses. Our body naturally produces melatonin, so we are just "adding" more to it. The tea provides a soothing effect I have found.

When needed I usually take 2 of the 5mg Melatonin tablets and a cup of hot Sleepy Time Tea about 30-45 minutes before bedtime. That has NEVER failed me personally. By themselves I had little success, but combining the two made the difference as it did with the OTC meds.

Neither of these suggestion made help you one bit, but I guess it's worth the try. I have found that once getting the narcotics out of my system those OTC meds really can be beneficial! I hope you find a solution soon and I wish you the best.

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:19 pm 
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Hi,
So much info. has been shared with you so I am just going to comment on one part and see if this can help you. Lack of sleep seems to be really playing havoc on you right now. This would wreck havok on anybody and is a very serious issue when it goes on for long periods of time. I know you have some pain issues yet what I would suggest is that you exercise until you are completely exhausted, when you are totally exhausted put in another half hour so you are basically making/forcing your body to get in a state where I would hope you could get some rest. Exercise will help get your body and brain to "heal" faster, so you will be helping yourself in many ways by exercising. What I am basically suggesting is that you exhaust your body to the level that it forces you to sleep/rest. I have read here on this forum some people doing exactly that and can hopefully get you back to more hours of sleep each night. Long walks, jumping jacks, light weights, multiple reps. You can do this at home or get a gym membership. Look on-line to help with exercise routines you can do at home.. Give it a try, it wont hurt, could make things a lot better for you. Helps with anxiety also!!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:12 pm 
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Thank you all for your invaluable help and guidance. I took what worked for me and shelved the rest, only because each one of us is so different chemistry and motivation wise.

I am pleased to report that after going through an intense ordeal, I am now 30 days Sub free! I still have withdrawal symptoms, mainly because I was forced to prolong the end part (physical pain) by taking Vicodin and Tramadol for 2 weeks. Then I jumped off completely.

I am posting my "Sub story" right now if anyone cares to read it. Five years of Sub, two before that on various pain killers and it's a freedom that was long overdue. :)


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