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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:41 pm 
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*big friendly warm hug back!*

Well, who would have guessed, I took the subutex. I don't know the consequences of it to my overall withdrawal, but I'm impressed that it has completely knocked my w/d symptoms for six. I think 1.2mg is actually a stupid dose to jump from, clearly the drug is potent enough at 0.4mg, let alone 1.2mg. Oh well, you clever girls know this already so I give you permission to feel smug - go on, you've earnt it!

I'll definitely try and pursue the clonidine tomorrow, and if the Universe fancies dealing me a wonder hand, maybe even get some valium out of it! (hopes aren't high on that one though).

I'll keep you posted with how the 0.4mg affected the withdrawal - this is, I would think, a circumstance of interest to some?

Peace and Love Xx (yay I'll get a good [hopefully uninterrupted] nights sleep at least tonight).

Thanks again for the continued interest and support, you are all truely lovely!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Hey Sub Off,

So what you took that 0.4mg piece you found. I can sure tell you being honest that I occasionally took more than I should have, or took a bit "additional" a time or two.

I do believe it will extend your withdrawals a little bit. That stuff is so strong as you know, and a tiny bit goes a long, long way. I guess you have to make a decision as to what you truly want to do here. I mean what IF you just happen to find another little piece? What then you know? No judgement here, I've just been right where you are now and I know how it is my friend.

Knowing what I know now, and if it were me, what I might try to do is instead of jumping at that 1.2mg dose you did, maybe try obtaining more sub if possible, and tapering down much lower in hopes that will keep the symptoms to a bare minimum. I don't know if you can get more sub or not?

I tried to jump from 2mg and it was the same for me. I tried several times in fact and it was always the same, the symptoms were too severe. I began tapering from 2mg and just today got down to a dose of 1mg. And so far I have had a few days of symptoms, but nothing I couldn't handle either. The last 4 days have had me having zero symptoms at all. And I bet tapering lower will make the difference for me. I'm going as low as I can get too!

Just my thoughts here Sub Off, and of course you have to do what's best for you in the end. Get a plan and stick to it I say. At least give it your best shot. Like I said before, you CAN do this!!! :D

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Karen, you may well have hit the nail on the head there. I think if the symptoms come back and persist at the same intensity, I may have to go back on and taper down to as low as possible. It is just not worth going through that intense suffering, when it could be (fairly easily) avoided. And I guess I could go back on to 0.4mg a day at the very most, as I've made some headway I reckon!

I'm genuinely not fiending (or at least I wasn't) when I discovered the sub - it was purely a desperate measure to combat the physical symptoms. Mentally I have accepted that I will have to feel depressed and lonely for a while if I am to discover myself and live in a sober manner again (which I passionately want).

And Way to go on getting down to 1mg! You absolute living legend! :D Great work, I wish I had your resolve and patience, I really do.

Love Xx


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Omg Andrew, you really cracked me up!!!! :lol:

Karen = Living Legend! HAHAHAHAHA :lol: Too funny! :D

I do appreciate the compliment though. It just really made me laugh out LOUD!!!

Just keep remembering that your getting off very strong drugs in the sub. As a result of this fact you SHOULD expect some symptoms at different times. I don't suppose it's intended to be easy to accomplish.

If you believe that getting back on the same dose as before and continuing to taper further, then give it everything you have. The sub will fight you along the way just as it has me and lots of others. Fight back Andrew, fight hard for your life.

On the other hand if you want to try going without more sub and continue as you are then that's ok too. I might suggest you give the jump another go and see if it's any better after you took that 0.4mg piece. I guess it's possible things may be not so severe this time? Maybe go as long as you can with no sub and if you get to a week then you can decide to continue or taper at that time. Just my suggestion and opinion here is all.

I also know that Horsegal, Romeo, and several others here have suggested that I taper very slowly once I get to 1mg and below. I plan on doing exactly that. I was tapering every 4-7 days on each dose previously. Now that I'm down to the 1mg mark I will probably go longer than that each time now.

I would suggest you do the same based on what I was advised to do. Maybe try tapering by 5-10% or so. Find what works best for YOU and go with it. Thanks again Andrew!

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Well, after a tiresome (to say the least) day of ringing subutex clinic, asking for clonidine and other withdrawal meds, only to be told to ask GP for such things, only to be told by GP that he is not in control of my withdrawal; and that he would have to let the clinic do the prescribing (I agreed with him totally on that) ; only to make the journey over to the clinic, to be kept waiting for 2.5 hours to see three different people (non a doctor) only to be told that clonidine is Dangerous and can cause all sorts of side effects, and that valium was straight out of the question. Believe me, I argued the toss for a good half hour on how they were wrong about clonidine and that it was not dangerous to prescribe me it. Well, they disagreed totally, except that it was non addicting.

My thoughts after all this: Big pharma makes too much money for people to be getting off subutex easily. They are not getting their palms greased if we are on heroin, or off opiates all together - the clinics wouldn't exist either. It's so obvious that REAL help for the user is not the most imporant agenda here. My clinic said they could only prescribe 0.4mg as a lowest dose. Now I know lower preparations of buprenorphine exist, but that says something profound doesn't it!

This realisation is an even bigger inspiration for us to get off this very strange drug buprenorphine.

Be safe and prosper! Xx


Last edited by Sub Off! on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:54 am 
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a QUICK update: I'm just shy of reaching 6 days off sub (12pm will make it 144 hours). However, I took 0.4mg (2 nights ago I think) and it seemed to wear off by the morning, so don't think it was too negative - I had to try something as was physically in turmoil.

Well, things are still pretty bad physically - although there is a feeling that it is slightly less intense today, and I'm sure this has to be the peak period now? Will keep updated as I see fit, but things are moving on, and I'm waiting for that breakthrough when I can be overjoyed that I'm through it!

edit: just wanted to mention that I went to the gym yesterday with a friend (who has never had addiction problems) and ran 10k and cycled 5k, then had 45 minutes of sauna, jacuzzi and hot showers and I came home and felt so much better. I literally sweated myself til I was drenched and looked a right state, but I definitely feel it helped speed things up a bit from where I was. Still had trouble sleeping but so far it's not as bad as some people have gone through -I'm getting 3-4 hours a night at the moment, but it's getting more difficult to fall asleep for some reason now.
Anyway, that's it, exercise really is the key during acute withdrawal. It's by no means over for me now, but I feel I've come too far and endured too much to go back on the sub and am happy I'm getting there!

Keep on keeping on and best luck with your battles Xx


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:24 am 
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Almost 8 days off Sub: Hi guys, a little update since I'm wide awake and have been since 3am really. Well, despite obvious problems with sleep (still getting about 4 hours although not at once but I have stopped the Zopiclone) the actual physical pain and discomfort has felt like it has taken a noticable and relieving turn for the better. There is still a difficulty maintaining a proper body temperature (it's August in England though which means fairly warm days usually with cold nights) but there is definitely light at the end of the tunnel now!

If you guys continue with your taper and get the proper comfort and sleep meds I'm sure you will be able to manage just fine - the first week will be the first week, and you won't be able to escape it scot free, but so far it doesn't seem like it will be weeks of torture like so many negative stories may have you believe.

Do well! Xx


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:36 am 
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Sub Off! wrote:
Almost 8 days off Sub: There is still a difficulty maintaining a proper body temperature (it's August in England though which means fairly warm days usually with cold nights) but there is definitely light at the end of the tunnel now.



What do you know, it's August in the US too!!! :lol:

Sorry Sub-off, I couldn't resist. Hope you have a good day! :mrgreen:

Q

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:21 am 
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Haha I know, what a stupuid thing to say on my part. Oh well, fair dues and I guess I have an excuse for being a bit ditzy at the moment? LOL

Have a lovely day!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:22 pm 
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HMM..just my two cents, but I find it odd that your doc didn't want to prescribe clonidine. In my experience, that's like a "standard" for treating w/d symptoms. It can make you sleepy, but it's been part of the regimen for anyone I've ever known, along with a muscle relaxer and something for sleep.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:10 pm 
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What is even more odd, is that they were willing to prescribe Zopiclone which is addictive and has more risk associated with its use than clonidine.

I can understand them not prescribing a benzo, as they know I've been on drinking binges and benzo binges before. I have never had physical dependence problems with booze or benzos, and can take them or leave them - they were made aware of this, but didn't want to take my word for it I guess.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Great job Sub off on your jump. I'm 15 days off now and hanging in there. It's great to hear from others that are in the same boat


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:20 am 
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okbyme wrote:
Great job Sub off on your jump. I'm 15 days off now and hanging in there. It's great to hear from others that are in the same boat


Thanks dude! I've just passed the 10 day mark and I can safely say that my withdrawal symptoms are entirely managable now! I am suprised that I am feeling so positive this early on - although the first week was one of the worst experiences of my life and went by so slowly. Now in comparrison to the first week I totally feel like I can do this - time still drags on slowly and I'm still having big problems sleeping, but taking hot baths and exercising is really helping to control my discomfort and improving my mood a little. Still feeling depressed quite a few times throughout the day though, but there are also waves of excitement and positive emotion which I am so enjoying - it's been a long time since I've felt some of these nice feelings. It is so worth it, but I sympathise with anyone who has to go through the acute phase as it is pure pain and dysphoria!

I was on subutex for about 5 months, so that could be why I am managing to adjust to sobriety a little quicker than some who have been on it for a couple of years or more?

I'll keep posting every so often and document the PAWs period, but yeah, I feel good that I have beaten the worst part of this withdrawal and I know for sure that I will never get back on opiates in my life. Can't say I'll never be given them in hospital but I won't ever use them to try and deal with life as they just made my life harder and stopped me from actually addressing things that I was struggling with.

Xx


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:26 am 
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It's good to see you're feeling a bit better. I know it is alot easier on your mind now that you know the worst of the physical wd is over. Now you just have to keep up the daily grind!

BTW - I'm sure you have mentioned this, but at the moment I can't remember. How's the cravings? Don't forget that getting past the physical wd is only the beginning of the battle! Not to discourage, just to remind you not to let your guard down.

Q

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:30 am 
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Thanks Q - how are you doing my dear?

Fortunately I have never had huge problems with mental addiction and cravings - I always used opiates primarily as a tool to lessen my anxiety and fear of life - never had the huge urge to always be "high", just to not feel quite so sensitive. The euphoria is something I think about a lot though - it's tough to ignore and I know I'll always remember how it felt and that is going to be difficult; but thankfully I have had a really miserable time on opiates despite their painkilling effects - I know how much they have inhibited me, and not enhanced my life, so at the moment I am seeing things in a rational light. I don't believe in the addiction is a disease theory because I suppose it has never been that way for me; it may be that way for other people perhaps but I've always known I am in control and have a choice; the problem for me was always physical dependence, fear of withdrawal, I knew I could regain my thoughts.

My long term plan to stay off opiates is to embrace life in the way that I have failed to in the past; I know if I go back to living and thinking in the way I used to, I am going to make it very difficult to stay away from opiates. I'm going back to education (going to learn Spanish in evening classes), with the intention of moving abroad to a better country to study further and teach English - I suffer badly from seasonal depression and the UK is mostly an overcast country.

I really believe the key is to keep busy and have goals and aim for better things. Sitting around feeling like life is pointless is going to lead to wanting to "self-medicate" again.

I'm feeling worse today and the withdrawal symptoms have amped up again, although still easier to tolerate than the first week.

Be well Q, how are you feeling about your jump - it must be approaching soon?

Xx


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:46 am 
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Hi Andrew,

I think overall your really doing great! Sure your going to be having some symptoms as the drugs (subs) are fighting hard to get you back on them. You have to fight just as hard and let them know you are finished with them and moving forward.

I completely agree with you about staying busy. that makes all the difference vs laying/waiting around and watching the clock for example. Minutes seem like hours if we do that most of the time. Also listening to your favorite music helps so much to get through hours at a time. Put on your favorite tunes and go for a walk or anything to get moving around.

Hang in there ok. You got this deal. Just try as hard as possible to remain positive.

Karen xoxo

P.S. Awesome on the learning Spanish! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:50 am 
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Thank you Karen, that was a very comforting post, just what I needed to get some inspiration.

I'm back to work next Monday and I hope things will start to become less tedious and really that should act as a marker for my real recovery to start. I am so fed up with opiates and they scare me; danger and risk written all over them - I can't go through this again - it's not an option for me anymore.

I want to be able to wake up, feeling fresh and healthy, excited about what I will be able to achieve that day. It will be soon I know, but it will feel like it will take forever which is tough.

Love Xx


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:53 am 
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Also, how are you feeling about your jump and recovery off Sub? As with Q it must be approaching soon?

I know you'll cope - you're serious about this and have already tapered for a long time which IMO shows you've had the right attitude already established - I am unfortunately still trying to get a stable attitude sorted, but it's coming I know.

X


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:35 pm 
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Hey Andrew,

It's sweet of you to ask about me while you are in the middle of your WD phase. I'm doing well, I haven't started tapering again yet. I'm still holding at 1mg, and I'm not sure when I'm going to go back down again yet. I kind of burned myself out on the whole thing and I think I need a little break before I start in again. Getting down to .25mg was tough, and it took alot out of me. But this time when I do it, it will be on my own terms, and at my own pace. Which in itself is so much less scary! As of now, I'm content to be at a low dose and enjoying this "stable" time.

I think it's a great idea to pour yourself into studying something that interests you. I have thought about trying to find a Spanish class in my area as well. There aren't that many options for someone who isn't enrolled in college to learn in a class type setting. I have looked into that Rosetta Stone software, but my desire to learn hasn't quite risen to the level of their need for funds yet! :roll:

I hope you feel better today. Keep yourself busy and find something to make yourself smile sometime today. If you need a hand I would be happy to entertain you with one of any number of embarassing stories of myself I have accumulated over the years. We have to laugh at ourselves right? :D

Q

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Sub Off! wrote:
Fortunately I have never had huge problems with mental addiction and cravings - I always used opiates primarily as a tool to lessen my anxiety and fear of life - never had the huge urge to always be "high", just to not feel quite so sensitive. The euphoria is something I think about a lot though - it's tough to ignore and I know I'll always remember how it felt and that is going to be difficult; but thankfully I have had a really miserable time on opiates despite their painkilling effects - I know how much they have inhibited me, and not enhanced my life, so at the moment I am seeing things in a rational light. I don't believe in the addiction is a disease theory because I suppose it has never been that way for me; it may be that way for other people perhaps but I've always known I am in control and have a choice; the problem for me was always physical dependence, fear of withdrawal, I knew I could regain my thoughts.


Hi Sub off,

You're doing amazing. I've followed your posts the whole time and I'm happy for you that you've been feeling better and better. Great job! I hope you don't mind, I'm about to pick apart one of your recent posts, not to tear you down in any way, but to point out some things that will hopefully open your mind a little bit and prepare you for things down the road. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm on your side and rooting you on. Promise. (I'm going to color coordinate my responses to points you've addressed.)

Bolded black -
Just pointing out that this is essentially the same thing. Mental addiction/ cravings = wanting to numb yourself due to anxiety/ fear. A mental addiction or craving is just that, your mind thinking of the drug in any type of rewarding way. It can be innocent as a passing thought that you brush to the side or an all out idea to use.. and everything in between. When you said "the euphoria is something I think about a lot though". That is a mental craving, just because you haven't acted on it doesn't mean you're not having them. And please be aware, they tend to get stronger when you least expect it, so keep your guard up, always.

Bolded blue -
High/ Euphoria.. same thing. Again, a little contradicting. Please do not underestimate this "disease". The one you don't believe in. It's powerful, as you can see from your own words.

Bolded green -
This is great! I know this is fresh in your mind now but the bad memories tend to fade with time so always try your hardest to keep these thoughts fresh and on the front of your mind.

Bolded pink-
I know you're thinking in your head that you'd never use again if you could just make it through this w/d period, but trust me and the millions of others, who tell you those thoughts wear off eventually. When you're feeling back to normal and going about your days and realize that it's still hard to navigate through life with anxiety and fear. Then the little voice starts creeping in reminding you how it was easier with that little bit of euphoria and energy. And then almost magically you forget about all the bad associated with using. That's when you realize that there's more to this stuff than you thought.

I'm not trying to project anything on to you, I'm just trying to warn you of how it usually is and I do hope it's different for you. I can't tell you how many times I told myself (over 10 years ago) I was only physically dependent, addiction is REALLY tricky like that. Especially if you are using it for underlying issues such as anxiety/ fear (which most addicts start out using for by the way.) You are not an exception to that rule. The theory widely held is that most addicts use for underlying issues, such as Childhood trauma, depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders, etc..

Anyway, they don't say "it's the only disease that tries to convince us we don't have it" for no reason. Your brain is going to do everything possible to convince you that you're in control.


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