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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:25 am 
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Hi all, I just found this forum. I have struggled with opies for a little over three years. My habit started innocent enough in june of 2010. I woule "enjoy" a single 5mg Norco once a day to break of the boredom. That went to 10mg a day (could not get 10's that split anymore) in august of 2010. That level of use (10 to 20mg of hydro a day) stayed steady for 2 years. I was very controlled. That all changed in July of 2012. Life happened and I turned to pills to cope. My 10-20mg of hydro turned to 80 or so in the span of three months. Then in September of 2012 a "friend" introduced me to a tiny little blue pill and said it was better for my liver. I tried 1/4 of this little blue pill and my love affair with oxy began. My habit to oxy held at about 30mg a day until jan of this year. More life happened and I have been on the increase ever since. By June of this year I began peeking at 100mg of oxy a day (mix of little blue's and Percocet). I REFUSE To go higher. I don't get the buzz I once got and craved. I now take 100mg to not feel like death warmed over. Finally six weeks ago I saw a doctor licensed to RX sub. He evaluated me. Considered me a good candidate for sub and wrote the RX (no in office induction. Just an rx for a few days worth and instructions). I went home. Did some research on sub and freaked myself out. I called my sub doc. Told him my concerns and told him that I am going to try and go the taper route. He rx'd clonidine and klonipin to assist the taper. I tapered a little, but like any typical addict. That didn't last. I am back up to 100-120mg of oxy a day. Again refusing to go higher. I have my 8 strips and a new apt today.

That's the back story. Right now. I am scared sh*tless of sub. I don't know why. If I was willing too put Norco and oxy in my mouth that I obtained from less than stand up channels. WHY am I struggling so much to go on sub?

Some of the things that go through my head are.

1. Sub is WAY too strong. I really don't want to stop breathing in the middle of the night because sub is too strong and I was not tolerant enough
2. I read a lot of sub success stories. You know the kind. Sub saved my life etc. But I am struggling to find a large number of success stories from people who have gotten off sub.
3. Lastly. WHAT IF sub does NOT work for me. Right now I consider suboxone the "red button" in my life. Push this to come back from the abyss. What if it doesn't work. I would go in to a full on panic because then what do I do??? And by not work I mean reactions to sub that prevent me from being able to use it.
4. Fear of the unknown. What does sub feel like? Contrary to what my habit suggests. I don't like the out of control feeling and I sure as hell don't like the panic attack that is brought on by having too much opiate and freaking out because the effect is too strong.

Any advice would be helpful. I have NOT spent a lot of time on these forums researching yet as I just found them. So I am sure some of this is discussed already and I will search for it.

Just a note. I will NOT be inducing today. It has been over a month since I visited my doctor. I want to make sure he can still rx me sub if I start. I want to go over the process with him again. Since this is an at home at your convenience type program I will plan on starting this weekend. Obviously since I have a presumed four day supply (wants me to start at 16mg once a day) I need to start when I am within 4 days of my follow up.. Frankly though I am thinking of starting on like half a strip. I am a math guy. according to opiate equivalency calculators 16mg of bupe is equal to 200-400mg of oxy where as 4 is equal to 50-100.

Ok. Long enough novel for now. Thank you for reading and again I would certainly appreciate any thoughts.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:04 am 
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Hey there "math guy" (joking :D ) and welcome to the forum. Please don't be afraid of the sub, it has helped soooo many people including me that's for sure! You have valid questions and concerns of course, and I assure you I had all of those and more. But Suboxone was actually and positively a last resort for me personally, and a very good choice I made for myself. Like you I tried tapering, I tried CT, and I just couldn't stop usuing, and I was at the point my life was in danger. I nearly died twice abusing benzo's! Enter Suboxone and now I am better than ever. I'm tapering now and down to .50mg per day and soon will be finished with it.

It is a strong and very powerful drug. A little bit goes a long way. I would highly recommend you take as little as possible at induction until you become stable. The way you feel on subs is as normal as possible. You should feel good, not high, but as good as you can possibly feel. You should be able to do anything you want while on sub therapy. Work is a non-issue for me, and no one knows I'm taking this drug except those I choose to tell. You feel NORMAL, and you feel like an "earth" person again!

In my OWN PERSONAL OPINION that 16mg he wants you to induct with is just too high of a dose at induction based on my experience. I bet you can get stable on much less than that, perhaps even 4mg or so. Maybe more? Why take more than is required is my motto.

Just make sure you are in moderate to severe withdrawals BEFORE taking that first dose of sub. There's a sheet called a Cow's Sheet that measures your withdrawal symptoms and places a number to them. Once you get to approximately 15-20 or higher on that Cow's sheet then you know it's probably safe to induct. If you take the sub too close to your last dose of narcotic pills you run the very real risk of going into precipated withdrawls which are like nornal withdrawals times 10!! Very sick, very fast. I did it to myself and thought I was going to die I was so sick. Not trying to frighten you further, only being honest, and giving you info you should be aware of at induction.

Here's the link to that Cow's Sheet
http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_ind ... _sheet.pdf

I would take small amounts of sub until you are completely stable and feeling good. You have to get sick with withdrawals, and when that first or second dose of sub is taken you will feel almost instantly better!

I myself think sub therapy saved my life. In fact I know it did. It's not right for everyone of course, but if you read different posts here you'll see what I mean. And you don't see too many sub success stories because in my opinion most that have success using Suboxone/Subutex don't stick around on the forums and are out enjoying their new lives! I plan on sticking around here to help out, or pay it forward because along with sub, this forum has made such a positive impact on my life.

Hope I have helped ease your mind a bit. I'm no expert, and certainly no doctor. Just someone that has lots of experience with subs and wants to help those I feel I can. Take care and please let us know how the induction goes.

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:47 am 
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Hi Karen,

Thanks for your reply. Precip WD does scare me becaus there is no way to be certain. So my thought was to make my last oxy dose at night (7-8p) then go through all of the following day and night. Get up the following morning and induce. That should be roughly 36 hours.

Do you know if it is safe to take clonidine and klonopin for sleep that second night? If in full WD I can't imagine trying to sleep.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:59 am 
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The entire reasoning behind that Cow's Sheet is because it basically takes the "guessing" out of when a person is ready to induct or not. I myself wouldn't take any chances by using a "time period" when I was ready to induct or not. You may very well be completely ready for induction after waiting the 36 hours you plan on doing, but why take the chance is what I'm trying to say?

Some people are reay at 12 or 24 hours, some are not. I can promise you one thing and that is you want to be taking no chances whatsoever of going into those PW's if at all possible. Avoid that like the plague. Up to you of course how you do things, only my suggestions here. Knowing what I do now there is no way I wouldn't use that Cow's every single time! It takes the guesswork out of things in my opinion.

The whole idea of induction is to get as sick as possible and then take the sub. If you use any "comfort type" meds to ease your symptoms then you delay those withdrawal symptoms even longer. You need to get sick to get better if that makes any sense?

You may not be able to sleep while getting into withdrawals, but you only have to do this one time so might as well do it right the first time! Yeah, it really sucks to go into those withdrawals, and I remember that very well. But once you do, and get to that score of 15-20 or so and take that very first or second dose of sub, you will feel soooo much better and it will have been sooo worth it you will discover.

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Did you self score with the cows sheet?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:38 pm 
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mkintexas wrote:
Did you self score with the cows sheet?



No I didn't score myself, my doctor did at the time. It's best to have someone score you because it's very easy to give yourself a HIGHER score than it truly is. You will be in withdrawals at the time and most want to get it over with quickly. My friend gave herself a much higher score than she was really at, and I'm glad I was there to score her myself.

You can do it yourself of course, just be very honest with the numbers. Don't fudge the score, and try to be as accurate as possible.

Also worth noting is the fact you may not have ALL the symptoms listed. You may have all of them, but you may not too. Just go through the list and give yourself an honest score.

You CAN do this! Take your time and if I can be of any further help just let me know!! :D

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:25 pm 
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Ok. Saw my doc. He wants me to start this weekend at 8mg once a day. I will self score ( no other choice). Obviously it is in my best interest to be in misery before taking it. I am thinking about taking a tiny little sliver as a tester. like maybe cut the strip in half. Then cut it in 1/8's so try and get 1/16th of a strip. I figure if I don't feel WORSE after taking that and feel a tiny bit better then it is ok to take the rest of the strip.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:33 pm 
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HMM it's like 3 weeks for me now. My doc gave me 3 Subutex so that I would be able to put 36 hours between my last dose of Percocet and my first dose of Suboxone so I was never actually *in* withdrawal other than the usual "withdrawal" I felt every morning after sleeping 8 hours. BUT - don't be scared. I think you will be surprised...I know exactly what you are talking about, i.e the panicky feeling that you took too much but I did NOT get that and I induced at 8 mg x 3 - which was WAY too much imo and I adjusted it to 4 mg x 3 within 4 or 5 days and I'm about to adjust it to 4 mg x 2 starting Monday. Karen is sooo right about "less is more" and I wish I had induced at 1/2 as much and then reduced THAT amount. But, in any event, I think you will find you will feel much better than you imagine.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:18 pm 
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I read a lot of stories about people saying they feel better then they have in years etc. is that true? I mean sub is still an opiate so aren't you still numb to an extent, or is sub a different beast?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:34 pm 
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HMMM..for me, opiates make me a little bit... "wired" I guess is the best way to describe it. Wired..but in a good way...not speedy but alert. Sub doesn't make me feel much of anything, except not in withdrawal - other than the fact I seem to have headaches as a side affect. Those have gotten less frequent and less severe as my dose went down and as I got used to it also. But I'm thinking different folks have different benefits and side affects, other than the obvious "no withdrawal" for which it's intended.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:14 am 
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I am still stuck at go.

This really blows. I do not understand why I don't want to start. I am trying to avoid calling the man in the mirror a loser, but if the shoe fits... :(

Has anyone else faced this demon. Hs anyone else had the freaken rescue meds In their hand but not started?

I know WD is not comfy. But h*ll I did CT in march so I could pass a drug screen (that was 70 hours)

Back in march i ct'd from 60mg a day habit. Now I am at 100-120. How much worse will my WD be at this level?

What is everyone's opinion on starting sub at 8mg (vs a whopping 16)

I have to get rolling. Found out yesterday morning that we are expecting our second. I want to be clean and experience this with a clear head.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:02 pm 
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mkintexas,
I was taking around 120mg oxycodone a day, sometimes more, sometimes less. I understand your reservations, yet you need to weigh out the reasons you are stopping your oxy habit. You allready stated you can not "taper" your oxy. Do not consider yourself weak for this, just know the oxy has a stranglehold on you. Many people fail at the "taper" method. I myself was only able to get to about 50mg a day and was getting stuck and craving more narcotics, especially for the pain relief. Do not be hard on yourself, try to empower yourself and the decision you are making to get clean. I, myself was able to get stable on 1 mg a day. I would not worry about how much sub you take, its more about taking enough to stop withdrawals and cravings for the opiates.
Obviously its your decision, you have to do what is right for you, keep in mind that people who have been successful getting clean do it for themselves. In my opinion, others can motivate you to get clean, yet ultimately you need to do it for yourself or there is a high chance of relapse. I would not be scared of the suboxone, I would be more scared of taking too much oxy and accidently O.D. or something. Anyway my 2 cents. Keep us informed for support.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:18 pm 
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Are you nervous at not being able to stop sub in the future?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:18 am 
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Hi MK,

How are you doing? Have you started the sub yet?

I wanted to address your concern about stopping sub in the future.

First off, I firmly believe that if you decide to stop subs it is much easier to taper from than normal opiates. I tried tapering and CT jumps from hydro and percs and I was NEVER able to make any headway. But with the subs, I was able to get down to .25mg without too much trouble.

But the thing is, what you are going through now isn't really living. You have the opportunity to live a life that is relatively "Normal" with suboxone. No more ups and downs, running out of meds, scrambling to find someone to provide the next dose, spending all your money on pills and hating yourself for it when you don't have the money to pay that bill. Suboxone provides you with an opportunity to get stable and work on re-building relationships, finances, and feelings of guilt you may have from active addiction. Once you get all of these things in place, and you have had time to learn about recovery and what it takes to be "clean" you will actually have a fighting chance to live a sober life.

There are many different views on whether or not you should stay on sub long term. But honestly, many people, once they see what life is like with them, decide to stay on. Others still want a life of complete sobriety and they make the jump. But the main point is that they have had that year or so to work on themselves and actually have the tools to do it. Right now, you don't have those tools.

I would encourage you not to worry so much about the end result. It is possible to get off if you want to...many have done it and are doing well today. It's not easy, but it's doable. Just focus on getting your life in order and having a period of stability to be able to work on these things, the rest will come.

Q

BTW-I'm not trying to convince you to go on subs. I only wanted to address your concerns. Your choice is your choice and we will be here to support you no matter what!

_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:54 am 
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Hey, what worked for me is the fact that I simply ran out of pills. Just the hassle of having to call my dealer, take out money from my account and meet them somewhere was too much.

So, when I ran out I was like, what is there to lose ? I will try the sub and see what happens. I started with half then I waited like 2 hours then I took the other half. It truly does work.

I wish you all the best with you induction. ! Sometimes you have to let go and trust


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:03 am 
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No. Keep delaying. I am nervous about starting too soon. I am also concerned that once I am on it I won't be able to sleep. I know these are all potential issues. But ones that should not hold me up.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:23 pm 
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Hi mk

I was in your shoes two days ago! Couldn't get off the Roxie's but I was up to 360 mg a day. Went to a doc & asked him to taper me down. Did fine for a month then got uncomfortable Never had w/d before & did not like how I felt so I said ENOUGH. I want my life back. Called several sub docs but no one had an opening because 2 methadone clinics just closed, finally I talk to a doc who says there is an opening for me. Long story but he agrees to meet me on Sunday to start my treatment which meant no more anything after 9 am sat. I guess it was my mindset but I made it to the next morning & I wasn't all that bad. He started me @ 2 mg & increased by 2mg after an hour. I am fine. No problem & I was on OxyContin the extended release. I was very worried & truth be told I took 40mg of norco @noon.

When you are ready you will do it. 24 hours is not so bad. I was surprised how ok I felt. I just did my normal stuff. Try not to over think it.

One thing odd is I really don't "feel" the sub. I was waiting for that feel good this morning. It didn't come but I am fine. A little off but at work. It was also my end of the road, escape route and I am glad I did it


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:10 am 
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Hi Again

I wanted to clear something up. The first day i took a total of 12 mg's & then Monday i took 20mg which i feel is to much.

Don't fear it, look at it as starting a new chapter. I have no cravings at all & that feels great!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:05 am 
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In my personal experience I only have to wait 12 hours for my jump. And the sooner you switch to subs, the sooner you'll feel confused as to why you were worried about it. You'll feel normal. Not like an addict. NORMAL. It's truly a life changing event after years of feeling trapped by opiate dependence. Trust me. Jump in. The water is glorious.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:43 pm 
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markalypse wrote:
In my personal experience I only have to wait 12 hours for my jump. And the sooner you switch to subs, the sooner you'll feel confused as to why you were worried about it. You'll feel normal. Not like an addict. NORMAL. It's truly a life changing event after years of feeling trapped by opiate dependence. Trust me. Jump in. The water is glorious.

I am on sub now. I waited about 24 hours. Then I started with a tiny tester piece. Waited 30 mins. Felt no real diff. Took another tester (maybe .25mg each). Waited 30. Felt a hair better. So took about .5 mg. hour later WD was gone. On ONE MG. some powerful stuff. Anyway. Coming up on a week. I am not sure i did the induction right. I had to wing it a bit as I started just as my doc left for vacation. I am taking about 4mg a day. I dose about 1/3 of a strip in the morning and do ok until mid afternoon. I start getting some decent cravings that keep building. I then take about .5mg and seem to do ok for the rest of the day. I should mention I take this amount because I started with 8 strips to make it two weeks. Not exactly an ideal start to suboxone.


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