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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:14 pm 
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Hi All- I have started working out more now that I am doing well on Sub. I am still in pretty good shape and just a few years ago competed seriously in endurance sports. So I am used to running and at times running hard. When I first got back into pain pills after a long abstinence from drugs, I was taking them for an athletic injury and training through it. I never had a problem pushing myself extremely hard when on opiates. However, now when I up my run intensity- moderate, not hard- I sometimes experience a sudden shortness of breath and what feels like a change in rhythm of my heart- like it slows down or misses some beats. Also a slight headache and nausea. If I walk for a while it subsides. Has anyone else had any experience like this?

Also, I am grinding my front teeth and it feels like one of them is wearing down. Can this be a side effect of Sub?

Much thanks for any input and for all of the other great comments on the "side effects" topic.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Headaches can be a side effect, but not the cardiac symtpoms, as far as I know. As for the teeth grinding - it's TMJ syndrome and it usually is triggered and made worse by stress. I also doubt the sub has anything to do with that. If it were me, I'd focus on how I've been feeling emotionally lately and try to determine if I'm under more stress than usual, etc.

That said, any medication can cause any side effect in any person. But haven't you been on sub for a while? Side effects would crop up earlier in treatment, rather than having a kind of delayed effect.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help. I do want to say I think it's great that you're so active. Keep up the good work.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:44 pm 
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If my memory serves me then I believe there was one person who mentioned shortness of breath a long long time ago and no one else responded to them positively in terms of having had that side effect. I would probably lean toward thinking it is not the suboxone, but would also lean toward getting it checked out because you probably need to know WHAT IS causing it regardless. It sounds like you are having heart palpitations which can be a problem and can also be totally benign and genetic. I have a friend who this happened to and apparently her father has had them as well. She is 53 and didn't know he had it until she started getting it and then he mentioned he has had the problem for years but never mentioned it. It came on for both of them in late 40's early 50's. I don't know how old you are. Anyhow, she went through the whole stress test thing and whatnot and they told her not to worry about it and she was fine. She says it is a little freaky when it happens but she is a drama queen too so you tell me.

Like Hat asked, are you under stress? I wonder if that could be making it worse. I have always grinded my teeth. I have never heard anyone mention teeth grinding as a symptom of sub either. But I grinded my teeth as a kid and then again once I got off opiates. I haven't worn any down though. That sounds serious.

Jack

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 Post subject: Think it is the Bupe
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:04 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback. I am almost positive that at the cardio issues are due to the Suboxone though. I competed in triathlon as an elite amateur for 10 years and have championship trophies in every distance, from sprint to Ironman (yeah, sorry, I am not too humble about throwing that in- I was once the slowest runner in grade school classes so overcompensate, or so my shrink says). Anyway, I used to track heart rate versus intensity, power output on the bike, altitude, etc. and do extensive physiological testing through a season. Trained up to 30 hrs/week, knew my body and never had a problem. I was the most fit 40 year old my doctors had ever seen (someone that fit would never abuse drugs, right? It wasn't any problem for me getting pain pills).

However after posting, I remembered that I did several times try riding hard on poppy tea and had a similar reaction. I wasn't training a lot back then, but did still work out occasionally. Never a problem with pills though. Towards the end of my using I was doing poppy tea a lot- really using it as a long acting maintenance drug. Wonder what the Sub is doing, and what components in the poppy are similar. Thebaine? Other minor components?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Just curious, how long were you in active addiction? It could be possible that your cardiac issues came up over the course of your active addiction (getting older and all) OR the poppy did have an effect on it, and now it's still happening, but FROM the poppy. That said, I'm just forming hypotheses. Obviously I cannot say absolutely that it's not the suboxone.

But, no matter what's it's due to, you really do need to see a doctor/cardiologist. Because regardless, if it's a problem you most certainly need to know about it and treat it, if possible. Please take care and if you do decide to see a doctor, please let us know what the verdict is. Good luck.

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 Post subject: re heart
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:54 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Just curious, how long were you in active addiction? It could be possible that your cardiac issues came up over the course of your active addiction (getting older and all) OR the poppy did have an effect on it, and now it's still happening, but FROM the poppy. That said, I'm just forming hypotheses. Obviously I cannot say absolutely that it's not the suboxone.

But, no matter what's it's due to, you really do need to see a doctor/cardiologist. Because regardless, if it's a problem you most certainly need to know about it and treat it, if possible. Please take care and if you do decide to see a doctor, please let us know what the verdict is. Good luck.


It is the Sub; seems to be dose-related and upping my Wellbutrin to 300mg on Sunday didn't help. I might just have to balance working out with my sub dose- if I can't have dope I'm going to have my endorphins damn it! I had an OK EKG not too long ago. I'll get a stress test if it gets worst but don't think I would explain the Bupe- unless they are willing to go do some research (which they aren't) I don't think a cardiologist would be of much help. I can do some research on my own.

How long in active addiction is a complex question. Actually I was an endorphin addict until a few years ago when I started having more injuries than made it worth while competing, and using pills when I did hurt. My opiate use was intermittent. I got had some pretty bad Oxycontin runs but not for more than a few weeks at a time. Same with tabs and poppy. I just couldn't stay clean for more than a few weeks or months. So I was in active addiction on and off for eight years. I had been mostly clean for ten years before that- was into a healthy lifestyle except for obsessively working out.

Before that I had used a lot of drugs going back to when I was 14. If anything would have damaged my heart it would have been a year of IV meth and chain smoking in my early 20's. If that caused heart problems I would not have been able to do what I have done the sports I did. I had a resting HR of 44 and a max of 210 when I was thirty five. I will monitor it and back off if I need to. . .otherwise I will die doing something I love. Would rather go that way than with a needle hanging out of my arm.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:41 am 
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Jesus. Please be careful.

Opiates are painkillers. Opiates are also performance enhancing drugs, especially with endurance sports of a high intensity (as long as you don't take ..too.. much). It's incredibly easy for them to lull you into a false sense of security because you can't feel any pain, and can push through your "wall" a lot more easily and more often than if you weren't on painkillers.

So it's highly possible that you've been pushing yourself too hard with your training, and might need to drop the intensity to take into account the analgesic effect of suboxone.

Like what hatmaker said, I'd recommend seeing your doc and jumping on the treadmill with those funky pads on your chest so they can see exactly what's going on.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:06 am 
tearj3rker wrote:
Jesus. Please be careful.

Opiates are painkillers. Opiates are also performance enhancing drugs, especially with endurance sports of a high intensity (as long as you don't take ..too.. much). It's incredibly easy for them to lull you into a false sense of security because you can't feel any pain, and can push through your "wall" a lot more easily and more often than if you weren't on painkillers.

So it's highly possible that you've been pushing yourself too hard with your training, and might need to drop the intensity to take into account the analgesic effect of suboxone.

Like what hatmaker said, I'd recommend seeing your doc and jumping on the treadmill with those funky pads on your chest so they can see exactly what's going on.


Although i agree with this i dont think this is possible as much with suboxone as like nubaine or some other shite. And hey man i run long distance too and am getting into endurance sports and i agree with you one hundred percent about the heart thing, i started dropping my dose lower a little like starting to taper just so i could run cause i would get sick if i took my stable dose then ran to hard so i would be kinda slightly sick but still on a good night of sleep ya know. I would get this weird feeling in my heart just like described and after running for a year on subs at many different doses i am 100 percent positive this is a side effect of sub, i mean really though sub is still an opiate you cant expect to be able to feel normal while performing activities like me and you like to do on sub :lol: but let it push you as another reason to take your recovery serious endurance sports take a deep love and its a very surreal sense of being i hope it helps you realize how important your life it to you, so on or off subs take care of yourself man :)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:01 am 
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Quote:
Narcotic analgesics decrease the sensation of serious injuries, allowing athletes to continue training or competition after serious injuries. While some painkillers are allowed, including codeine, the following are banned [from the Olympics]:

Buprenorphine
Dextromoramide
Diamorphine (heroin)
Fentanyl and its derivatives
Methadone
Morphine
Oxycodone
Oxymorphone
Pentazocine
Pethidine


Just be careful is all I'm saying, if you get my gist, especially if you do competition sports! :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:31 am 
yea what up folk! hey cuz, yall is crazy as hell. this person sayin they got valid evidence that da sub is causin it an yall all tryna to tell'em its not. what kinda shit dat is? you dont know this person history. you not they doctor. how you be so sho dat its not da sub? you not. i think they need support. not people tryin to convince them they wrong. come on now, all them medications be able to do some crazy shit wit all kinda side afects. it acshually coud be da sub. keep it real folks! sub very difirent and it been known dat people be comin up wit all kinda afects negatives.


stay up and stay safe ppl. im out holla


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:04 am 
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Sounds like a Troll to me...........

But moving on.....it sounds like you have things under control and you know where the problem lies. I certainly don't do anything fancy like you are in terms of running, but I work out every day. I don't think bupe makes it easier like other narcotics would. I still dread getting on the machine. I still have to slowly increase my endurance. I don't think it makes it easier for me to push through my wall. For ME anyways. I am not in love with working out. I enjoy it when I am DONE and I enjoy that if I am working out I don't gain weight. That's it.

-Jack

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:46 am 
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True.

It's unlikely that for us folk who are tolerant to the subs that we'd get any benefit from it. If anything it'd probably be worse for us. But if a weightlifter who had no tolerance then had a small dose of sub before they compete, it could certainly give them an edge.

Hey wishbone. Welcome. Fair points! I've been put on some crazy meds in the past that have caused heart arrhythmia even without exercise.

Why I'm saying "be careful" aero is that some arrhythmias (if it is in fact that) can be nasty, especially if they're only coming when you're exerting yourself. It can't hurt to get it checked out.

Were you ever an IV drug user?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Onniegrapples wrote:
tearj3rker wrote:
Although i agree with this i dont think this is possible as much with suboxone as like nubaine or some other shite. And hey man i run long distance too and am getting into endurance sports and i agree with you one hundred percent about the heart thing, i started dropping my dose lower a little like starting to taper just so i could run cause i would get sick if i took my stable dose then ran to hard so i would be kinda slightly sick but still on a good night of sleep ya know. I would get this weird feeling in my heart just like described and after running for a year on subs at many different doses i am 100 percent positive this is a side effect of sub, i mean really though sub is still an opiate you cant expect to be able to feel normal while performing activities like me and you like to do on sub :lol: but let it push you as another reason to take your recovery serious endurance sports take a deep love and its a very surreal sense of being i hope it helps you realize how important your life it to you, so on or off subs take care of yourself man :)


Cool, thanks for all the feedback guys; good to know there is another runner out there. I don't feel much pain relief from Sub. Oxycodone is another matter- I could just about tear the cranks off a bike on that stuff. I did start using oxy for injuries. Then I found out it kept me in the game with increased performance in short intense efforts. Long term it of course just fucks your life up, and it messes with your red cell count which is definitely not performance enhancing. Agree about the running/cycling making one feel in touch with a higher power. I just have to keep it in balance. It was really got yo br a serious obsession with me that affected my relationships and other parts of my life- in retrospect the transition to drugs should not have been unexpected.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:28 pm 
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...by the way, Belgian cyclists had their "one day race mix" back in the 60s/70s: heroin, cocaine and cortisone. I don't know how many of those guys keeled over


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:18 pm 
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I have been on subs for 3 years starting with 8MG x 2 and now I am down to 3MG a day. Starting about a year and a half ago I started having chest pains and breathing problems from Suboxone. I would also have arm/shoulder pain and swollen joints. It got to the point on multiple occasions where I couldn't even take the subs for a few days because shortly after I did I would feel like crap with all the above symptoms. Then eventually those side effects would subside and I would go back up to my regular dose.

It seems as though every 4 to 5 months I would get the same feelings for a month or so. I would go get the full work ups done by my docs and come up looking healthy as can be. Fast forward to now and for the last month or so I have been having the shocks at night along with trouble breathing and chest/shoulder pain worsened a few hours after my dose. Has anyone else experienced similar problems? I love subs and they have helped my life a lot but I'm at the point now where they feel like they're gonna kill me and I almost feel guilty taking them because I know they're putting my body/heart under stress. Also not breathing sucks. Thanks for any advice and I hope everyone having bad side effects from subs soon feel better.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:02 pm 
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I got big into training after getting clean, and I too felt heart / chest pain at times. In hindsight, I believe that anxiety was the cause. There are some massive links between opiate use, recovery from opiate use and anxiety.

Quote:
...by the way, Belgian cyclists had their "one day race mix" back in the 60s/70s: heroin, cocaine and cortisone. I don't know how many of those guys keeled over


I guarantee you that these guys damaged their health, and reduced their life spans, as a result of pushing their bodies to the point of damage on performance enhancing drugs. Steroids, amphetamines, opiates.. anything artificial that pushes the body beyond its natural limits does the body damage. There's a reason that our bodies start creating pain while exercising - it's telling us that damage is starting to occur.

Nothing good comes from using drugs to push the mind / body beyond its natural boundaries. Ravers who dance for 48 hours straight on speed and ecstacy, trainers dosed up on growth hormones, truckies who take speed to make a run... It's all the same.

I guess it just comes down to a balance - between achievement in your exercise regime, and being kind to yourself.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:10 pm 
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I would just like to add a little bit of info from my experience, and while there's no definitive proof that suboxone causes these things we are all different, may have slight allergic reactions to either the buprenorphine or even the naloxone.

When I was on 8mg-16mg of suboxone daily I would often experience a difference in my breathing, as well as an elevated heart rate, with a feeling like it wasn't "pounding hard yet was at a high rate". (a shortness of breath). While it wasn't extreme to the point of feeling like I would pass out (and if I did it's mostly a source of smoking weed for 10 years and smoking those nasty ciggarettes for a long time), and trying to get back into shape.

But I will definitely say in MY experience, once I got down to 4 mg of suboxone a day (and now at 2mg a day) that "shortness of breath" or the high heart rate yet it felt like it was barely "pounding", feeling when I went jogging went away (and yes I still smoke those nasty ciggs), but am still able to run multiple miles every other day or so without experiencing a light-headedness or breathing problems.

Now I never had tests done my doctors on my heart related to this, but for me, whether it was an allergic reaction to higher doses of naloxone or buprenorphine, I do know my body, and do know that at 8mg or higher of suboxone I had some weird side effects, such as not being able to run more than a mile (and doing it in a very slow jog type of manner, very moderate workout) without feeling a shortness of breath and all around lethargic feeling as well. As a result I stopped working out for the most part and stopped running/jogging entirely (stupid choice, haha, this was about 1.5 years ago). Recently i've been working out and playing basketball, as well as jogging 1-3 miles a couple times a week without any problems (other than normal effects of having been out of shape). But I've also been on 4mg or less (now 2mg) of suboxone since I started working out and running again. On this lower dose I have not once felt the "shortness of breath" or other side effects.

That's just ME though, and while it COULD BE suboxone at high doses with some individuals, it could also be a vast array of many other things. But I still do believe that the higher doses of suboxone (8mg+) was part of the problem. I want to enforce it's simply my OPINION, with no scientific data to back it up whatsoever. But tapering down and now stabilized on 2mg (much lower dose) and being able to control my breathing while I jog (and I'm still out of shape trying to get back into working out), and also feeling my heart rate go up when I jog/run I no longer have that "weird feeling of my heart barely pounding", rather it feels much more natural and I feel much more comfortable jogging. While I still smoke my ciggs (shame on me), I feel like being on the lower dose had definitely rid of all the "weird effects" I had felt while trying to workout on 8mg-16mg of sub.

(Now of course it's entirely possible that tapering and eating better, along with other productive things in my taper, could be why I no longer feel any weirdness while working out or jogging, I still strongly feel that for ME, the high dose of suboxone had something to do with the shortness of breath and high heart rate that was uncomfortable because it felt like it wasn't really "pounding" or beating hard like it should.)

Purely my subjective experience and opinion, I can't enforce that enough.

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 Post subject: Palpitations
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:44 pm 
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I have definately noticed cardiac changes while on subs. On higher doses I had faster heart rate, pounding, and palpitations. I am now on 1mg one day and 0.5 the the other. I have been experiencing palpitations, chest pain, and jaw pain. I had a cardiac stress test today. Nothing serious, mitrial valve regurgition and frequent palpations. The cardiologist was not familiar with subutex, so made no correlation. Going to the sub doctor tomorrow. Will ask him what he thinks of the subs and palpitations. Just wanted to share my experience.


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