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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:20 pm 
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Where are all the moderators at? This is exactly why people get booted...then turn around and have "no" idea why. Come on. He has no anonimity man.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:35 pm 
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wil

Just for the record I am not a "lifer" and I have reduced my a few times. Once when I droped I ended up manic in a mental hospital. Another time I relapsed and another time the mania started again.

I am 40 and have been using since age 13. My last relapse I used IV drugs and lost my job and almost lost my nursing license. I have been a lifer on illegal drugs really.

I dont care if people hate sub and a bad experience makes them want to quit. I get irritated when people assume all this bullshit about others sub experience.

SoberJon, That post about Dr J was in really poor taste. You have NO right to accuse him of using. Just as you have NO right to say I am high on subs. You have NO IDEA what is happening in Dr. J s life.

Thanks Moviemaker for your thoughtful posts.


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 Post subject: Crossed the Line
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:08 am 
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Soberjon,

You crossed the line with even hinting that Dr. Junig is using drugs. Another moderator at the same time removed the paragraph because he/she considered it too absurd to stay visible. I agree.

I know you are new here but that doesn't excuse the behavior. Consider this a formal warning. Further discussion or unsubstantiated accusations about anyone here especially Dr. Junig will result in being banned.

Normally I like to use the PM function when warning someone. But in this case it had to be read by all.

If you have any questions or concerns please contact a moderator of your choosing.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:41 am 
Rule62,

It’s too bad what I actually said got deleted, bc now you, as well as others, can claim that I accused him of being on drugs when that is not what I did. Also, what I said was not “unsubstantiated” as I followed up my comments with several reasons supporting the statement I made (which, again, was not accusing him of anything). I even prefaced my comment with “I am not sure what his situation was when he made that video”.

After looking at some of his other videos, I now have a deeper understanding as to why some of the posters on this forum have such a negative outlook on recovery. There is definitely a negative and hopeless vibe to this forum which really bothers me because it doesn’t have to be that way. I wish I could help people on here understand that its not hopeless and there is no reason you cant quit suboxone and live a normal life. By normal I mean no PAWS (as I have none), no ongoing treatment of any kind, and the ability to live a successful, happy, and drug free life. It’s not only possible, but it’s no where near as difficult as some people on here (as well as Dr J) would lead you to believe.

If you want to ban me so you can go back to wallowing in your own sorrow and self-pity, then that’s your decision. If you want to delete my benign posts bc they strike a nerve (this usually happens when people here an inconvenient truth) then that’s your business. I am not here to tell people what they want to hear, Im here to help people with what I have learned through my own experiences. Do you know how infuriating it is to hear the negative talk that goes on in this forum when I know from my own experience that it doesn’t have to be that way?

I will refrain from discussing my feelings about Dr J from this point forward out of respect for your authority in this forum, but I will continue to speak the truth and call things how I see them.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:51 am 
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So when the doctor posts truths that people don't want to hear... folks like yourself lash out. So. It's all a matter of individual opinion to some extent. I just know for a fact that this disease can rarely just be shaken off and forgotten about while living a normal successful life. If that were the case... nobody woulds be here. So. I don't get your stance. Just because it happened for you doesn't mean that the millions of others can do it. Think about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:53 am 
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I'm just not seeing how that is speaking the truth.unless you are just strictly talking opioids and not all the other drugs and eubstances.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:56 am 
I don't drink alcohol or smoke pot.. So i have no idea why someone is talking about how people quit subs and turn to that. Then on the same token they say they feel messed up mentally when they indulge in something like that. Guess what? That's how i feel when i take suboxone! I am bitter and depressed because i am still on this stuff. I'm far past the point of using my DOC. and now it's time to bring some closure to this junk aswell. I understand where some of you guys were IV'ing drugs for years and years. But i think it's wrong to not bring it to some closure. I guess you have to really hate that drug and curse that drug in order to stop using. Ring any bells? It's just like getting fed up with active addiction. What am i missing? You've done drugs for some many years and want to keep using drugs? Where does it end? This is my opinion. I feel mentally miserable that i am taking this stuff. and ya know it's good ammo to get away from it. Sorry you do not feel the same. Keep trying though, damnit!

Switching from one opiate (heroin, methadone) to another (bupe) does not “heal” the neurological aspect of addiction, which is characterized in part by the phenomenon of tolerance: as long as exogenous opiods are taken, the body decreases its production of endorphins and increases the number of receptors.

…But Scanlan is a fierce opponent of such long-term bupe use. “There’s no way your brain chemistry can heal while on buprenorphine,” he says. “You’re continuing to give someone a narcotic.”

…He has noticed that at long-term doses of even 2 mg, bupe can block almost all of a person’s emotions. “They say to me after they’re off for a while, ‘Wow, I’m really having a full range of feelings,’” he says.


This may not be you. But I feel this way. Sub did a great job at the start. But where i've messed up is getting complacent now. I think it's time to give RECOVERY a real shot here!


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 Post subject: Still not getting it
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:57 am 
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SoberJon wrote:
Rule62,If you want to ban me so you can go back to wallowing in your own sorrow and self-pity, then that’s your decision. If you want to delete my benign posts bc they strike a nerve (this usually happens when people here an inconvenient truth) then that’s your business. I am not here to tell people what they want to hear, Im here to help people with what I have learned through my own experiences. Do you know how infuriating it is to hear the negative talk that goes on in this forum when I know from my own experience that it doesn’t have to be that way?

I will refrain from discussing my feelings about Dr J from this point forward out of respect for your authority in this forum, but I will continue to speak the truth and call things how I see them.


So now you make accusations at me for enforcing the rules set forth? I won't bother to debate the childish response to me but you are walking on thin ice. Just stick with having debates and discussions about your experiences. Leave the name calling and self diagnosis out of it.

My patience has run very thin. Cease and desist.

Edit: Any negative discussion about Dr. Junig will result in immediate banning. In the future, everyone just please refrain from even bringing him up in any thread. Therefore, Soberjon is now banned. And no, I did not make this decision alone as you all know.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:13 am 
If soberjon gets banned for letting people know it's not okay to give up and take a stab at actual recovery and staying clean. IP ban my ass while your at it. This is becoming cult like and a rather dangerous debate to me and my actual literal recovery of getting away from drugs as best as i can.

I am in no way special. I'm 24. in good health. work out 5 days a week. 6'1 165 pounds. I'm just a regular person. Look it's possible if you get off and let your brain get back to the way it naturally runs. It's sad because no long term info is known about this medicine and i love how people are saying the negative side effects people are getting from this medicine are probably from something else. Sure it's possible, but i am NOT buying it! Like you or me can tell anyone what they think some of these nasty side effects are really from. Anyone like me only taking sub and experiencing a bunch of nasty side effects... I'm going to lay my cards down on this stuff. But i will not stick around long enough to be the example of what long term sub can do to someone. I'll let some of you take care of that. This is getting insane, seriously... Maybe i'll see some of your names down the road if we can all get a class action lawsuit for damage that may be done. Realistically... No it's not sub.. Never that. It's anything but this medicine. Utterly ridiculous. To each his own. I do hope we can all meet up and laugh about this someday when those that are opiate free make it there. Because we will! That statistic is never going to go up to more people breaking free of chains if we all just settle on sub forever. I hope that makes a LITTLE sense. I'm not here to bash anyone or change anyones mind who is allready set in stone. I'm here for those who maybe want to take a stab at being clean. Myself aswell. I thought thats why were at this point. Guess not.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:27 am 
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You aren't getting it. Some others for us just don't want to die or go back to active addiction. Sorry you don't see that or understand it. Also. He wasn't banned for reeling people that this isn't a hopeless battle. I just refuse to be debated about taking Suboxone when you have only seen the tip of active addiction and what it can do. You are welcome to your opinions but stating things as facts about being hopeless and whatnot while only using a few months....... I'd feel pretty confident about getting off subs too if I were in your shoes! You just can't understand unless you have lost everything and everyone you love and are still chasing drugs.... and the only thing that allows you to live semi normally is Suboxone after searching for freedom from active addiction for years. It's just..... different.


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 Post subject: Will
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:57 am 
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Please calm down Will and read why he was banned. It had nothing to do about what he thought about Sub. Just go back and read my last Edit comment. There are certain rules set in stone here. He broke it.

We encourage healthy debate on both sides of all subjects of recovery.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:43 am 
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I give up on this thread. I don't understand any of this. Prove relapse rates wrong by getting off? Idk. I'll stop there. Not productive anymore. Good luck man.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:05 am 
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dirty south- stirring it up, good for you... during passionate discussions like this one, i've noticed as much shit said is regrettable as is enlightening... looking back to the time you started the sub tx, there WASN'T research available yet! i know cuz i wasn't able to find any objective info a couple years ago either, and you(ms.ds) got a bit longer on this road than i do. i did notice a common denominator, people in sub tx who are comfortable with the levels their at and have yet to try detox'in are of the same opinion of eachother and on the offence towards folks like us. glad it's working for them, now, would like to hear from them when their doc stops them short, fast taper, or whatever else that rocks the temporary relief?

teejay- they say everyone has an opinion. maybe some shouldn't. whatever good points you may have had, in my opinion..., completely went down the drain when i read" 13 days, talk to me after 2 years of sobriety" i really hope a chem dep cons career is NOT in your future plans! i been around the block a few times, and i have never heard anyone offer up such WEAK ASS BULLSHIT as you, son. seriously wtf? i don't even know what else can be said, really wtf?

i believe this tx is relatively newer by med standards, clin trials can't be all knowing, that's why i believe in this forum, good, bad, real experiences from start to finish, an informed mind will take a collective while reading many, and come to an educated choice...these days anyway.

update- dirty so- i'm hanging with ya- think we are both at day 12 or 13? hang in there, it get's easier right? teejay, thats how real people address an addicts recovery, douche.
anyhow, i'm not having too hard of a time now with about 2 weeks since final jump, happier every day, feeling better daily, and starting to sleep a bit, 4-5 hours at once is good enough, like the goonies. (i don't know where that came from?lol goonies?) take care all!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:16 am 
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blue falcon show wrote:
teejay- they say everyone has an opinion. maybe some shouldn't. whatever good points you may have had, in my opinion..., completely went down the drain when i read" 13 days, talk to me after 2 years of sobriety" i really hope a chem dep cons career is NOT in your future plans! i been around the block a few times, and i have never heard anyone offer up such WEAK ASS BULLSHIT as you, son. seriously wtf? i don't even know what else can be said, really wtf?


I don't know if you're trolling or just being rude.

My point was -- anyone can get clean ... not many people stay clean. When a member comes here with 13 days clean telling everyone how brainwashed they are for staying on Sub ... I've been 13 days, 13 weeks, 6 months clean many times, yet I choose to be on Sub because staying clean long term is a shitload harder than getting clean. Detox is nothing compared to the long haul. I woulda detoxed hundreds of times in my using career.

I'm just saying. Prove you can stay clean, not just get clean ... then I'll gladly listen to your opinion. Fair?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:04 am 
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tj- ii've been clean for a couple of good long stretches 7yrs once and 4 yrs the next, also had as much time in the struggles of serious addiction, i've lost more than i care to mention while f#@k'd up-i've also gained and prospered more than i care to highlight in here while sober....given my 20+ yrs in this battle, the detox from subs was/is something that people like dirty south and i, as well as many others, are pretty f'ing proud of at this point, given the statistics (only 10% successfully get off of subs? read that somewhere) i'm having a difficult time understanding exactly how saying what you had said can be done any other way than sounding like a complete jack-ass? i may have thought to myself similar thoughts about certain folks along the way as you, but never a blanket statement, never via int forum(where getting an accurate read ie. body lang, attention, commitment ect can be assessed) and i would have used my "INSIDE VOICE" ... sorry to hear you are such a pro at detoxing, i don't see it as the badge of honor it seemed you were demonstrating, hope someday you can experience life clean for a bit longer than it sounded like. maybe detoxin' subs comes so easy for you because you know it won't be for very long? idk, you obviously feel strongly about something, just not so sure what it is yet? do you? if being on subs works for you, and thats got a twist in yer grip, it's cool, some it works great that way, just the same, how do you know that in five yrs down the road you won't decide what me and dirty and others have, and choose to taper off and take control again? if so, i hope at day 13. you could read what wrote in here and see for yourself... i don't think it can be said w/o sounding like a jack-ass, i'm not trying to be rude,or trolling? don't even know what that means? like fishing? no worries dude, just want to leave the word of the day...encouragement...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:46 am 
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damn, this is surely NOT what i expected by posting. i've been shaking my head for days over the responses here. i thought there was a little blurb up top of the forum index where it says:

Please do not debate the 'Pros and Cons of Suboxone' -- this forum is for people who have made their choice whether it be for Suboxone, for Methadone, or for meetings and no meds.
PLEASE Do not get into debating which is better!
Please show the [sic] respect for the decisions of others.


i posted to get support from people who are going/have gone thru what i'm going thru right now, which is trying to put "bupe in the rear view" so excuse me if i'm not trying to hear about how fkkin great and awesome suboxone is...from ppl who are currently ON the shit. seems to me the better place to spit that kind of shit would be on the induction discussion threads, but hey, what do i know?

there's a little saying in the "rooms" about how you never know what yer gonna hear that's gonna keep you sober for another day. well lemme tell you, what i'm hearing here ain't gonna be keeping me sober. what i hear here is gonna make me want to ring up the doc and set myself another appt because it's so hopeless and futile to try and get off of subs. now, someone like soberjon had some truth to say and he's banned?! thanks guys, cuz y'all just eliminated my chances of hearing something that might help to keep me sober for another day from him. (little caveat here, i didn't see what he posted about dr. j.) so to soberjon if yer reading this, thanks man for yer posts.

thank you romeo, will, blue falcon show, want to be free, hopesprings, soberjon.

encouragement indeed.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:04 pm 
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April 15th of this year will mark 2 years of me being off subs. I am not saying its easy staying sober, however I have made many changes in my life since then, I got married, moved, I no longer even know where to get pills or dope. I was on methadone for around 2 years and subs for around 2 years.. then I weaned off with the support of my doctor. It was my decision, and my doctor fully supported me thru it all.

Although I am not on subs anymore my sub dr is also my phsyciatrist so I still see him every 3 months now, and he is still supportive of my decision. What helps me stay sober the most is excercise... it got me thru the withdrawals, and its how i start every day at the gym.. I guess one could say I am addicted to adrenoline which is probably true, since I feel the best after a workout but hey I can handle that addiction. Also I no longer have contact with anyone that I knew when I used.

I am not going to lie and say I dont have cravings, but really that does not happen that often...this much I do know, coming off subs was not easy, and I never ever ever want to go thru any sort of withdrawal again, I am 50 years old and done with that part of my life.

My life is better since i have been off subs, however everyone is different. For me right now life is better.

Everyone is different so I say do what works best for you.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:11 pm 
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blue falcon show wrote:
tj- ii've been clean for a couple of good long stretches 7yrs once and 4 yrs the next, also had as much time in the struggles of serious addiction, i've lost more than i care to mention while f#@k'd up-i've also gained and prospered more than i care to highlight in here while sober....given my 20+ yrs in this battle, the detox from subs was/is something that people like dirty south and i, as well as many others, are pretty f'ing proud of at this point, given the statistics (only 10% successfully get off of subs? read that somewhere) i'm having a difficult time understanding exactly how saying what you had said can be done any other way than sounding like a complete jack-ass? i may have thought to myself similar thoughts about certain folks along the way as you, but never a blanket statement, never via int forum(where getting an accurate read ie. body lang, attention, commitment ect can be assessed) and i would have used my "INSIDE VOICE" ... sorry to hear you are such a pro at detoxing, i don't see it as the badge of honor it seemed you were demonstrating, hope someday you can experience life clean for a bit longer than it sounded like. maybe detoxin' subs comes so easy for you because you know it won't be for very long? idk, you obviously feel strongly about something, just not so sure what it is yet? do you? if being on subs works for you, and thats got a twist in yer grip, it's cool, some it works great that way, just the same, how do you know that in five yrs down the road you won't decide what me and dirty and others have, and choose to taper off and take control again? if so, i hope at day 13. you could read what wrote in here and see for yourself... i don't think it can be said w/o sounding like a jack-ass, i'm not trying to be rude,or trolling? don't even know what that means? like fishing? no worries dude, just want to leave the word of the day...encouragement...


I'm sorry you're so sensitive at this point in your life, but I understand your attacks may be a symptom of the emotional rollercoaster of detox. I'm not going to encourage someone who puts down those who they seek encouragement from. Nor am I gunna tiptoe around a person just because they're withdrawing.

I'd happily celebrate 13 days clean with anyone on the forum. I do it all the time. But I don't feel like encouraging those people who go off Sub while attacking members on the forum, and accusing the forum of being a promotional arm of big pharma.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:39 pm 
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time to stop this nonsense-so teejay-
yeah , i was on the offensive, and yeah, not all your words, only one sentence got under my skin, and hell yes i take it serious,rather than being as you call it "sensitive" but it seems that you are not getting it where i'm coming from and maybe i am not seeing past to understand yer view, very likely. if i understand you right, since someone is talking smack about subs, that renders them open for one of the most ridiculous comments i've ever heard anyone say to an addict in recovery,regardless of days, i'd feel the same if it was on day 4 or day 90. personally, if i were to be at a meeting, aa,nn,ect. and witnessed some dude saying that same statement to someone in that same position, i'm sure i would get up and knock the dude upside the head, regardless to how the conversation got to the point to drive dude to say it... the statement is just wrong on so many levels in the context you've pitched it to be, in my opinion. as far as the topics and issues discussed before the "side ways comment" i wasn't even considering them, i look at it as an excuse to what caused you to say it, and only that, doesn't mean you were in the right, it just means you choose to cross a line due to your passion of the subject. sounds like you felt dirty was being hypocritical, and if so, there were so many better ways to make yer point without shitting on someones progress while they're in a very vulnerable state. that has been my point and only that point. i don't understand why it is so hard for you to get that? what i get from yer posts was "she deserved it"? as much as i would like to drop this, i feel i owe it to others who read this to be very clear and explain my actions, because, as you first suspected, i am not one who makes a habit of getting into these types of insulting exchanges...it struck at my convictions in a way i wasn't comfortable letting it go, to be honest, i was and am effected by this way more than dirty south was and is, shit, she defended you to me in pm, so you must be worthy? i wouldn't know yet, and neither do you, i haven't even posted my position on the topic of discussion, which has been my point all along, just the statement made.
lastly, where i come from, whether someone is at day 1 or 15years, they're all taking life one day at a time, how much sober time doesn't mean shit, everyone is equal in recovery, as anyone can fall at any moment, don't matter if 13 days or 2 years...sounds like you came from experience, i don't know how you would believe any different? maybe you've never attended treatment or meetings? that would explain a lot, i assumed you have.

of course i owe you the respect of hearing your response to this post, shoulda probably did this one in pm, and i hope you see i am not out to cut you off at the knees, just completely offended..lol. maybe it does have something to do with wds,if so, i think it's more on the lines that i spent the last entire year planning my taper and detox off subs, started many months ago, and i stayed on track as planned, and it's a big deal for anybody when they can get past the worst of the wds period, whether they jumped off or planned a long grueling grind where it's on your mind all day every day for months and months, and someone minimizes, devalues, or just shits on your accomplishments. seems to me if anyone had gone through the suboxone wds after being on them for any length, understanding my long drawn out ramble should be very simple to get their head around.. hope this ends the b.s.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Okay...

"Where you're from" what I said isn't acceptable. Reality check. This place isn't a 12-step fellowship. The newcomer is NOT the most important person in the room here. If I was at a meeting, out of respect, I wouldn't voice my opinion because I know it's not respectful to the doctrine, like I'd wear a kippah if I went to a synagogue. But I don't see the 12-steps on the wall here, and people don't hold hands and talk to God in here. This is the public domain where all kinds of recovery ideas are shared. If you're going to jump on someone anytime they say something that doesn't fit in your 12-step ideological mould you'll end up a very angry man.

Secondly ... you've taken my words completely out of context and spun them into some kind of insult to Dirty South. I suspect your 12-step ideals might have made you jump on it as you would in an NA meeting, or made you hear it wrong. What I was saying was ... if Subs are so shit and weren't helping you in your recovery, and everyone in here is wrong to be on Suboxone ... show me you can stay clean for 2 years without them ... show me it was wrong for YOU to be on Sub, then I'll hear substance behind your words. Isn't that something they say in AA/NA? "Don't tell me, show me..." ?

Another thing. Anyone in this forum can vouch that I'm NOT an ardent pro-Subber. I like to think I'm pretty fucking open-minded with ideas and opinions. I may be jaded by the number of people who come on suboxforum, freshly off Sub who all of the sudden take to attacking Suboxone and everything it stands for. Maybe it's a necessary phase in getting off Sub? All I know is, those people who have a few years off Sub or methadone, in or out of the 12-step rooms, have generally found some peace about the place of drug-replacement in their recovery. They generally see it as an important stepping-stone to getting themselves abstinent-clean. And I really hope Dirty South, and yourself, and myself once I get off Suboxone, will get to that place, even if we take different paths.


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