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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:21 am 
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SoberJon, I disagree that the only difference between sub and other opiates is the longer half-life. Methadone also has a longer half-life. Does that mean it works the exact same way as suboxone? There are crucial differences. When I was inducted on sub I noticed the absence of withdrawal symptoms within an hour. So, yes, that was one of the benefits of sub to me. But the biggest surprise and the biggest miracle to me I noticed within the first 48 hours. I found that I wasn't thinking about, craving, or obsessing over my next dose! For me, that was HUGE, not to mention life-changing. So far, the only drug I know of that accomplishes that is suboxone.

You are welcome to not get carried away with praising sub, but I will always make that point about suboxone because it has been a crucial part of my recovery process. Also, when I was induced on sub I felt normal, not high. I never thought, "Man, if I can keep getting a script for this I'll be all set." But for the first time in a long time I thought that I could be more in control of my life. I knew very early on that suboxone is a drug I could be able to taper off, while I never had any hope of that on my doc.

I respect that you've been through the process of quitting suboxone. I recognize that you have knowledge of yourself from that process, knowledge that I don't yet have about myself. I do want to hear about what you went through while you were detoxing off sub because it gives me a glimpse of things I may go through as well. The thing is, my detox process may end up being totally different than yours. I wish you wouldn't assume that we all follow the same path as you on our suboxone journey.

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:44 am 
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Thank you Amy for that well written post.

I don't know why, but I get so pissed when I read posts that basically put down sub users and imply that we have no idea how truly fuckin high we really are. It totally discounts others experience and is a total insult.

SoberJon, in the future when you write, it is best to use "I" instead of "you." Write from YOUR OWN experience, not mine. Please don't ASSUME you know how everyone on sub is feeling. (or not feeling)

Its fucking crazy to me that people come to a pro recovery site and put down the decisions of others.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:56 am 
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hell yes i'm angry at this broke azz system, and YOU should be too. buttt, feel free to keep up with the pro-sub rhetoric i was speaking of in my OP.

soberjon- EXACTLY. i feel like i'm not trying to hear shit from someone until they're off this shit. i knew there had to be at least 1 other person who'd get what i was sayin.

romeo- after doing some refresher research (remember, i picked this avatar like 3 years ago...) i found it's the "eye of god" helix nebula. i thought it was the cat's eye at first too. if i ever had a "higher power" it'd be shit like this.

little update- day who the fuck knows, 13? feels like 80. yesterday was friggin rough. thank god we flushed all our subs or i might just have.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:07 am 
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Orange doll wrote:
Thank you Amy for that well written post.

I don't know why, but I get so pissed when I read posts that basically put down sub users and imply that we have no idea how truly fuckin high we really are. It totally discounts others experience and is a total insult.

SoberJon, in the future when you write, it is best to use "I" instead of "you." Write from YOUR OWN experience, not mine. Please don't ASSUME you know how everyone on sub is feeling. (or not feeling)

Its fucking crazy to me that people come to a pro recovery site and put down the decisions of others.


orangedoll- you get pissed and it's an insult because you are still on subs, yes?

i didn't see anyone putting down other's decisions, i just saw some ppl say that THEIR experience was that getting on sub left them with a bigger problem than they started with.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:20 am 
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Can't we get some original discussions / arguments on this forum? I'd post my opinion on the whole "sub sux" topic but I really cbf typing it out again for the billionth time.

You hate Sub? Good for you man. If Sub didn't play a role in your life, or had a negative impact, then that's your fault for not researching enough before you went on it. Just another whinge case of someone who made a bad decision and doesn't wanna take responsibility, blaming the system, the doctors, the corruption ... whatever. Anyone but yourself.

Congrats on 13 days clean. I might be open to your patronising of people on Suboxone a bit more when you have 2 years clean, but by then you might have matured a bit more ... hopefully.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:39 am 
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TeeJay wrote:
Can't we get some original discussions / arguments on this forum? I'd post my opinion on the whole "sub sux" topic but I really cbf typing it out again for the billionth time.

You hate Sub? Good for you man. If Sub didn't play a role in your life, or had a negative impact, then that's your fault for not researching enough before you went on it. Just another whinge case of someone who made a bad decision and doesn't wanna take responsibility, blaming the system, the doctors, the corruption ... whatever. Anyone but yourself.

Congrats on 13 days clean. I might be open to your patronising of people on Suboxone a bit more when you have 2 years clean, but by then you might have matured a bit more ... hopefully.


hi teejay. it IS my fault for not having done my own research, 100%. butttt, that does not discount the fact that the system, the drs, the rehab BUSINESS also shares part of the blame.

if all this makes me immature and my point not valid because i "only" have 13 days clean, well...mmmkay.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:03 pm 
Amy, people do need to be aware that when they are taking subs, they are in fact taking an opiate. When you were inducted on subs, you noticed the absence of w/d symptoms within an hour because once you took the sub, your opiate receptors were filled and you no longer were in withdrawal, just as if you took an oxy or any other opiate. The difference is that subs have a much longer half life so once you take a sub, your opiate craving will be kept at bay for a much longer period of time compared to other opiates. Simply put, if you take an oxy you will get high but (due to its short half life) after a few hours fewer and fewer opiate receptors will be satisfied and soon you will be craving more. Suboxone, however, will keep those same opiate receptors satisfied for a much longer period of time, keeping your cravings at bay for a longer duration, comparatively speaking.

Now, I will concede there is a difference between suboxone and other opiates in that suboxone is a partial opiate agonist whereas other opiates are full opiate agonists. For all intents and purposes (without boring people to death with speculative medical speak), the primary difference between the two is that suboxone doesn’t produce as euphoric of an effect when compared to other opiates, even though it still produces a significantly euphoric effect. Suboxone is effective at accomplishing its purpose because it does have such a long half life, it does produce euphoria, it does have a higher binding affinity compared to other opiates, and it does have naloxone in it which keeps patients from abusing it. In a nutshell, that’s how subs keep addicts satisfied and for the most part out of trouble.

The miracle of no longer craving and obsessing over your next dose can be attributed to the fact that subs are an opiate, and they have an extremely long half life. It’s like smoking a cigarette and saying to yourself “wow, I can’t believe I no longer have that craving for a cigarette”.

You mentioned the first time you took a sub you felt normal, not high. Honestly, I don’t know what to say about this. If you were in withdrawal when you took your first dose then I am not sure how you went from feeling withdrawal to just feeling normal (how did u even know what normal was at that juncture?). All I will say is that certainly was not my experience when I started on sub and I know that was not the experience of other sub patients I have spoken with over the years.

As far as what I went through when I quit subs, that should probably be a thread of its own. To briefly summarize, I suffered acute w/d’s for 2.5 to 3 weeks. It’s important to point out that when you detox from subs, you can no longer live in a state of denial and pretend that you are far-removed from all things opiate addiction (bc that’s how I felt after being on subs for 4 years, I knew I was taking a powerful opiate, but I certainly did not think of myself as a currently-using-opiate addict, but that is indeed what I was). When I detoxed off subs, the reality of what I had been taking for 4 years was staring me right in the face. My heart was beating out of my chest all day, every day, for almost 3 weeks, diarrhea non-stop every couple hours for 3 weeks, extreme and unbearable anxiety non-stop for 3 weeks, extreme depression for 3 weeks, hardly any good sleep at all for 3 weeks and even 6 months later my sleep is a far cry from what it used to be, RLS so bad that I felt I couldn’t take it anymore…for 3 weeks, also felt lethargic even though I couldn’t comfortably lay down and rest. I mean, we all know opiate w/d, its hell.

For the record, I am neither pro-sub nor anti-sub. In my opinion, subs are no different than any other opiate, they are what you make of them. Other opiates serve a great purpose in society, keeping sick/injured people pain free, sedated, and in good spirits, its when people use them to get high that they become “evil”. Subs serve a great purpose of helping people in a downward spiral get ahold of themselves and their addiction, but its when people think they are sober and experiencing reality the way a sober person does that I feel obligated to step in and respectfully disagree.
In order to avoid setting the record for the longest post in the history of this forum, I will leave it there.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:27 pm 
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soberjon-

that took the words straight outta my mouth. you just put that shit down.
thank you.

p.s. don't stop there cuz i go on reading that for dayssssss.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:12 pm 
Well God bless you dirtysouth, what you are doing is quite admirable. Many have attempted to do what you are in the midst of doing and have failed, just hang in there and keep battling, battle hard.

Remember, "by your endurance you will gain your soul" - Jesus. I repeated that quote to myself over and over when I was withdrawaling and it helped. Prayer and faith is critical to making it through the withdrawals, at least it was for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:18 pm 
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It was never my intention to stir up or antagonize the OP. I have taken further discussion with SoberJon into private messages, because there are obviously points on which we still disagree.

My only plea here is for people to recognize that their experience with sub is only their experience. Please allow that other people have different ones. There is only so much scientific evidence out there and the rest is subjective.

To Dirty South, I get that I'm not your favorite person right now, but I do truly wish you well in your detox and recovery.

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:51 pm 
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SoberJon wrote- "It’s important to point out that when you detox from subs, you can no longer live in a state of denial and pretend that you are far-removed from all things opiate addiction"

No Jon, thats how YOU feel. Why do you keep assuming people on sub don't know whats up?

I know I am taking an opiate Jon. I know that I am dependent on suboxone and I know how the medication works. I am an RN and have some education under my belt. I am choosing this for now because I was headed down a dark path into IV drug use.

People need to take some personal responsibility and do some reasearch into what they are getting into.


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 Post subject: getting off suboxone
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:38 pm 
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Dirtysouth is not trying to put down anybody. Is completely normal to feel angry towards a medication, that at least for me, took it for too long and spend too much energy depending on it and trying to avoid the WD. I just feel that you can not take subs for life!! In my humble opinion, if you have been on subs over 2 years, it is time to come off it!!
One more thing, people who are off subs, have also try and shoot everything in their path!!
I know I did!! Anyone considering to taper off, there is only one way....... discipline. I can help!

Best of luck!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:42 pm 
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I agree doll. In general I think that most people know that Suboxone is an opiate and all the things that come with takijg it. However. I think too many people just take Suboxone, swear off NA before giving it a real chance, think everything is peachy because Suboxone takes away cravings and does some of the work, and what not. So. Too often folks have crappy life issues due to their active addiction or issues left unresolved that surface after being on Suboxone for awhile and then they blame the Suboxone or the doctors. Craziness. I've tried both ways. And I can say that I used to hate NA because I let the people bug me and didn't give the program a shot. And now my life is much better because of NA and Suboxone. So. Point is. Every problem in life is not due to Suboxone.... most are due to being an addict that chooses to not work on themselves because the Suboxone makes them feel semi normal. Blah. Idk. I'm just sick of seeing NA put down without actually trying it and blaming all problems on Suboxone.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:18 pm 
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amy- i don't feel any kind of way towards you one way or the other, and definitely not to to say yer not my fav person, no offense. ty for the well wishes. i will say that its too bad that you and soberjon will be continuing yer discussion via pm because it could be very helpful for others to see it.

orange doll- let me tell you that i happen to be another person out there who didn't really appreciate the fact that i was still soaking my brain in opiates, until i got off of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Hey Dirty South,

If i spent the majority of my day reading all these replies I'd probably blow my brains out.

You're 14+ days into withdrawls, your emotions and your feelings are completely justified. I hated Suboxone on day 1-15. I hated suboxone on day 45.

I could spend all day responding to the pro-suboxone, or TJ's.. Post but I'm going to pass. We have 5 threads in the forums going on this stupid argument.

Keep up the recovery Dirty. That's the only thing that matters right now. Don't worry about anything else. Congratulations seriously how well you've been doing. It's not an easy process.

I saw your post to me in Hopespring's thread and I just figured I would acknowledge you here. You'll be a success story with about 300 pages of suboxone arguments soon enough.

Thank you for the kind words and best of luck moving forward!

-WantToBeFREE


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:46 pm 
Sober Jon. When I first got on suboxone for three months I was in that denial of being removed from all thingsm opiate addiction. 8 months down the road after taking 6 day off cold turkey I understand exactly where your coming from. I couldn't agree more. I want to avoid argument with the said lifers. That's there choice. But I won't be debated by someone who has never tried to quit. Stick around sober Jon. I'm back on subs but not trying to get comfortable. Longer I am on it. Worse it's going to be. By endurance u will gain ur soul. That is definitely going to be taped on my dresser mirror where I have to see it when getting my subs. Those that are trying to pick apart reasons why someone doesn't like subs need to back off. That maybe there way of getting clean and sober. And here you are dismissing that because your sour ur a lifer. And are trying to rationalize to people why it's ok to keep taking opiates. This place is to share 'all experience both good and bad rights.


Yet you got the lifers trying to pick people apart on there experiences. And even the doc of this site who says he will continue
Offering people help getting off subs... he is then found saying stuff like. Tapering off sub is a losing effort. It only leads to relapse. Maybe I should hang that quote as fuel to keep me from thinking about picking up soul sucker sub.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:24 pm 
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The point here is... for you... it probably is seeming like a "soul sucking" medication due to you only using for a short time and then taking subs. For others that have used majority of their lives and lost everything and everyone more than once on top of the numerous other issues.... this medicine allows them to live normally for the first time in their lives in some cases. So that is the other side of the argument. Also. Others don't want to use any kind of drugs the rest of their lives including weed and alcohol. Hmm. Also. Like in my specific case.... I went off Suboxone for ten months without any kind of recovery because I thought meetings were stupid and worthless. It didn't work out because I did nothing to fix the actual problem let. Drugs are not the issue most of the time. So when people want to rush off Suboxone for the first time and hate meetings and still drink or smoke weed or whatever it is....it's just people trying to help them by trying to keep them alive and clean by staying on Suboxone until they have some solid recovery. Most that job at get off with no recovery do drugs within one year. And. I read slot of stuff on here about people that jumped and are doing so great and stuff... but now they drink and smoke weed or need something else to manage to live. So I don't get it. But. That's where I'm sitting with your argument. But. You gotta experience it for yourself.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:51 pm 
Thanks Will and good luck with your recovery. The key to getting a positive effect from subs, as you mentioned, is not getting comfortable on them, which is difficult bc they are designed to make opiate addicts comfortable.

I was a hardcore addict for 7 years prior to starting on subs, which I was then on for 4 more years. Obviously, opiates were my drug of choice but I consistently used and abused any and all drugs I could get my hands on during my time as a junkie (which includes just about every popular street drug except meth, which thankfully never infiltrated my part of the country). Now that Im off subs, I don’t drink alcohol at all and although I did smoke weed for a period of time I eventually stopped for various reasons. I’ve never been to an NA meeting so I cannot comment on whether or not they are helpful. I saw a counselor for a brief period when I started on subs and it was ok, but not really my cup of tea, considering my counselor had less formal education in psychology than I did.

As far as people taking subs bc they don’t want to use weed or alcohol for the rest of their lifes, I would say I don’t see how taking subs keeps you from smoking weed or drinking alcohol since I know plenty of people who do both while on subs.

[edit: paragraph moved by moderator]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:09 pm 
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That's my point exactly. Not taking Suboxone to keep you from using weed or alcohol or whatever... just how many people think that just not taking opiates while on Suboxone will build recovery. People on Suboxone that chase recovery don't want to use any drugs ever again. So. Any day if is a relapse while on Suboxone. I'm just tired of people complaining about how terrible life is because of long term Suboxone but they are still smoking and drinking and stuff.... and the problem is just that. They are very active in their addiction... thus the pain and depression.... not the Suboxone.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:17 pm 
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I just take Suboxone. Nothing else. I consider all other drugs a relapse in my recovery and get sick as he'll in the head if I use them. So. Keep that in mind. To get off Suboxone you need great recovery... and even then.. the odds are still against us. That's what the doctor was saying. The truth. Look it up. I'm tired of this doctor bashing bull shit. What if I just said you were a drug pushing dirt bag that uses all the time? Nobody even knows the guy on here.


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