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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:48 am 
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Induction, day one. No point in talking about day one or two because they were hell. Here I am day three wondering if maybe I’m on the wrong drug? Maybe my doctor wrote me for something other than Suboxone (Sub)? Because once again, this ‘wonder drug’, this same drug that everybody says on this forum over and over… “Suboxone Saved My Life!” I must have some strange brain chemistry because I can’t see what all the hype is about? I have NO desire to get high off Sub; my tolerances are so high I don’t even get high on my own drug, which is Oxycodone…. and Hydrocodone, to a much lesser degree. About 90mg’s of Oxy, and near 60mg’s with Hydro./Day.

I’m a pain patient, but that’s not relevant to this discussion. I’m honestly wondering what properties this drug has which are so similar to an Opioid that makes you all of a sudden not crave Opioids anymore? It feels like minute to minute my brain is screaming out for Oxy, and you can’t turn off that feeling. Does it ever go away? Okay, I’ve just started this, for the second time; I made it about 3 weeks last time. How can Opioids feel so good and make me feel so normal, but this Suboxone drug only leaves me flat? Everything is so overwhelming clear, but not in a good way, the world is brighter, sounds are louder, emotions are coming back. Your new reality hits you real hard as you are so used to living on Opioids and feeling ‘that’ the way it makes you feel is your feeling as normal. When they’re removed your body rebels and your mind becomes fixated on just getting that sense of what Your normal felt like. My main complaints are three, and they are so cruel and insidious and honestly unexpected, you tell me when (or if) they go away…. And, do most experience them?

1. Lethargy: I have no energy, desire, motivation to do anything. Even going to the bathroom is a chore, both physically and psychologically.

2. Insomnia: I can’t sleep at all, maybe 5 minutes here or there. I have been up for almost four entire days; and it’s wearing on me big time. I’m so incredibly tired but can’t fall off. It feels endless, and some nights the restless leg is almost unbearable.

3. Depression: But there seems to be something that’s even more menacing is this awful Depression that pervades every aspect of my being. Most times I feel like there’s no way out and I want just to end it right here. That dreaded feeling that things are never going to change and never improve. I’m no stranger to Depression, I’ve wrestled with bouts of it for most of my life and I’ve been through some extremely life threatening Major Depressive Episodes. But this Depression is different, it’s far worse and cuts deeper, and it seems just endless; and I’m sure the insomnia just feeds the insomnia…

If this drug is so similar to an Opioid, why am I suffering so much? If Sub is so similar then it should be tricking my brain into the lie that it’s getting a real full blown Opioid; should it not? I want to hear from the ones who have made it through these things. Does it happen where these issues subside and you start to feel normal once again? Is it just ‘time’, and if so, how much of it? …or, am I not giving the drug enough time..? I was on Pain Meds for over 5 years and that’s not a short time, and everybody is pushing Suboxone on me. Is it just pharmsutical companies getting rich by over stating their claims? I’m going to stop, I have too many questions. Please, everyone and anyone, I want to hear how this went for you and what should I expect over time. That and how much longer may I suffer? My doc has me at 12mg’s a day, does that seem like too much or too little?

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:59 am 
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Hi Human,
I'm really sorry to hear that you are feeling so horrible. I can completely understand why you are doubting the efficacy of suboxone when you are experiencing such overwhelming cravings, depression, insomnia and lethargy. I am not a doctor and I have no professional medical or pharmaceutical training, but it sounds to me like your dose is too low for a starting dose. My understanding is that goal at induction is to get all the opiate receptors fully saturated with sub so that the cravings and withdrawal symptoms are effectively suppressed. In my personal experience and in reading about other's induction experiences, it seems like 16 mg is sort of the standard to begin with. Depending on the severity of symptoms, doctors can prescribe up to 32 mg a day. You should not be suffering as you are right now. My thought is that you ought to talk to your doctor as soon as possible and hopefully he or she will increase your dose. It often takes a higher dose initially to get cravings etc under control, after which one can drop down to a lower maintenance dose.
I hope you feel better soon.

~Anna


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:50 am 
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I, too, am very sorry to hear you are suffering so much right now. My first thought was the same as annabella's - perhaps your dose is simply too low. What dose are you on?

Suboxone is a partial agonist opiate, as compared to full agonist "regular" opiates. It occupies the opiate receptors. The idea is to saturate the receptors with buprenorphine (the active ingredient in suboxone) and to be on a high enough dose to KEEP the receptors saturated at all times. This is what will stop the cravings. It's this that makes us think that you might be on too low of a dose.

The other thing is you're only on day three. Some people don't feel that immediate "normal" feeling right away and need a few to several days to feel improvement. You might just need to wait to stabilize.

I know this doesn't give you any specific answers, but I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please just ask. I really do hope you get to feeling better soon. Hang in there.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:45 pm 
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you aren't the only one, if you ever go to a methadone clinic you'll meet alot of people there who HATE suboxone and will tell you how useless it is...I am one of those people, the best i can recommend is to use it to get through the physical withdrawal and taper down off of it.....as for the psychological part it is imperative that you find activities to do that keep your mind focused away from oxy's, it is possible to eliminate the cravings without a drug and obviously in your case the psychological factor does not have to do with fundamental brain chemistry but a more complicated function of your reward center....so try to find other things that are rewarding in life, and yeah the bad thing about subs is they make everything dull but you CAN"T have your cake and eat it...you are just going to have to work hard on this and step 1 is taking responsibility that you deserve this for becoming addicted in the first place...someone has to say it in a society that is cultured towards everyone doing what they want well guess what here are the consequences and I'm here to pay them to so I can say i know exactly what you're going through and I also know that both of us deserve it


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:01 pm 
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Addiction is a disease and although yes, we have some personal responsibility due to our actions while in active addiction, and yes, those actions have consequences, but no one "deserves" any of the misery or discomfort that was described here.

As for suboxone making "everything dull", that's a blanket statement that has not been proven. I'm not going to dispute it if someone says that it's happened to them, but it certainly isn't a documented side effect that happens all the time or to everyone.

Sub_human - how are you feeling? Are you doing any better today? Please let us know how you are.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:52 pm 
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calling addiction a disease is modern society's way of turning a perpatrator into a victim....what started the disease? Does not one have to choose to abuse a drug in the first place in order to continue doing so? Yes, therefore it is a choice and choices have consequences. With the mentality that no one deserves the suffering that comes with that choice then it is no wonder why so many people refuse to accept it and do what it takes to get off.

Suboxone making everything dull is a personal statement that also applies to the author of this topic and whether or not it happens to you or not is irrelevant since he is the once experiencing the problem


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Check out the "what is addiction" thread under "why the anger" topic. I think you'll find it very enlightening.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:10 am 
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frankp1983 wrote:
you aren't the only one, if you ever go to a methadone clinic you'll meet alot of people there who HATE suboxone and will tell you how useless it is...I am one of those people, the best i can recommend is to use it to get through the physical withdrawal and taper down off of it.....as for the psychological part it is imperative that you find activities to do that keep your mind focused away from oxy's, it is possible to eliminate the cravings without a drug and obviously in your case the psychological factor does not have to do with fundamental brain chemistry but a more complicated function of your reward center....so try to find other things that are rewarding in life, and yeah the bad thing about subs is they make everything dull but you CAN"T have your cake and eat it...you are just going to have to work hard on this and step 1 is taking responsibility that you deserve this for becoming addicted in the first place...someone has to say it in a society that is cultured towards everyone doing what they want well guess what here are the consequences and I'm here to pay them to so I can say i know exactly what you're going through and I also know that both of us deserve it


I agree that Suboxone dulls emotions. I don't think it dulls all emotions. Not by a long stretch, but you certainly don't feel the same on Sub as off Sub. This happened to me. I know many people argue against this. Why? Don't regular opiates change a person's emotions? Isn't that why people use them? Buprenorphine is an opiate, even though it is a partial agonist opiate. So, wouldn't it affect emotions as well, just on a lesser level? Someone really needs to explain to me why this would need to be 'proven' when it is so obvious. It doesn't make Sub 'bad' if it affects emotions. It's weird how people cannot seem to accept the downsides to some things. Maybe it's not even a downside for some people, anyway.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:55 pm 
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I have been taking sub. for 22 months now and my emotions are not dulled in the least. I am grateful I have my emotions back after 25 years of drug and alcohol abuse. I don't discount people when they say their emotions are dulled by sub. Everyone is capable of having different reactions to different medications. The problem is when people say everyone is having a certain reaction just because they are.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:37 pm 
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I got a idea. Try to quit cold turkey wait one -2 days when u r in full withdrawal and take suboxone. Then you will see how dull and useless it is. Just a hint of sarcasm

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:35 am 
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Hey Sub Human, how are you doing? Are you still taking Suboxone? Is it working?

Come back and let us know how you are!

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:36 pm 
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"what started the disease? Does not one have to choose to abuse a drug in the first place in order to continue doing so?"

I found this comment and question very interesting and just had to comment. Certainly if someone was out looking to party and get high and was either buying oxy on the black market or doing heroin, the argument can be made that there was a choice to abuse the drug in the first place. The "problem" is, not everyone came into addiction in that manner. In fact, there are many who have never had an issue with addiction in their life until they suffered an injury and was prescribed opiates for pain. This board is filled with stories of people who never abused any drugs or alcohol only to suffer a fall, be involved in a car accident or have a debilitating illness and was given opiates by a doctor. For many people, this does not trigger any problems. For those with the DISEASE of addiction, it most certainly does and they end up addicted. There never was an initial choice to abuse the drug. The disease was already there and only came out when the prescription pain medication came into the picture. Who would chose the life and consequences of opiate addiction?


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 12:29 am 
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frankp1983 wrote:
calling addiction a disease is modern society's way of turning a perpatrator into a victim....what started the disease? Does not one have to choose to abuse a drug in the first place in order to continue doing so? Yes, therefore it is a choice and choices have consequences. With the mentality that no one deserves the suffering that comes with that choice then it is no wonder why so many people refuse to accept it and do what it takes to get off.

Suboxone making everything dull is a personal statement that also applies to the author of this topic and whether or not it happens to you or not is irrelevant since he is the once experiencing the problem



Frank-I disagree that you don't feel like addiction is a disease because we "choose" to abuse the drug. I COMPLETELY agree that we CHOOSE to "abuse" a drug. But many times (like in my instance), I was started on opiates for pain control. It was a TREATMENT given to me by a doctor. Over time I built of tolerance and needed more of the drug to get the same pain control. Next thing you know I am out on the streets looking for more and stronger meds to get the same effect. Now one could blame doctors for starting them on the pain meds to begin with and if they never did in the first place then maybe one wouldn't be in the predicament. So many do get stuck in an addiction because of situations like this.

But as far as addiction as a disease, I can see how this might be confusing. I look at it like diabetes. With diabetes, your body becomes desensitized to insulin at the receptor level, not allowing the sugar to enter the cell and therefore circulate in the blood stream accumulating and causing all kinds of issues in the long term. But many reasons this happens is because of one's "choices" in life, whether it be poor diet (high sugars, carbs), or low activity level (sedentary life style, no exercise etc). Once you have diabetes you can always change your diet, lose weight, watch what you eat and help get the disease under control or sometimes be considered disease free. BUT...you will ALWAYS be more susceptible of the disease in the future if you stop taking care of yourself. And you can go right back to the disease faster than someone who had never had diabetes in the first place.

I believe addiction is similar to this. We will ALWAYS be addicts. We will ALWAYS have a dormant disease that if you don't care for and watch diligently, can and will take over our lives again. I just started suboxone today and I HOPE and PRAY that this will help me get my life back after 7 years of opiates, Oxy's in particular. I hope this helps with the "disease" aspect of addiction.


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 Post subject: Addiction IS a disease
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:19 am 
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Agreed. It is. Addiction is a disease. I've been on Sub since 2005 and have not even realized how much it helped level me out. Now that I'm on 1 mg, STILL on a decent amount of Sub, I've having all these repetitive and tormenting thoughts that remind me of how I was before I started Sub. These are the reasons I drank....to shut those things up! I perseverate too much, over think everything, feel everything way too much, etc. It makes me want to bury my head in something, which is the disease of addiction. I cannot just hum through life like the 'normal' people out there. Never will be able to. Thank God I am tapering, so I can start figuring out how to deal with this crazy brain a little at a time. I do feel the 'high's more, but I feel the 'low's' more and it can very much suck!!!!

Donh brought up a great point. Many, many people on here became addicted to pain killers after a horrendous injury, followed the guidelines their doctors put forth, and still ended up addicted. That can happen to anyone, whether or not you are born with the crazy-type of addictive brain that I was. It's not always a choice, unfortunately.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:53 am 
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Yes addiction is a disease. Every child who is naughty has a disease. If you have mood swings you have a disease.

And in the future when brain scans get more developed and red bits light up when someone gets the urge to watch Jersey Shore, they'll call that a disease as well.

I'm just saying that the the psychiatric crowd, who defined the disease of addiction, are getting a bit carried away with their labels these days imo.

Frank I dunno about the whole "addiction as a disease turns the perpetrator into a victim". Sure it turns the person into the victim, but how are addicts perpetrators? Sure if they rob your home for your prized stamp collection... but not all addicts perpetrate crime.

From a medical point of view addiction might be a disease. But I strongly think that us addicts shouldn't view our own folly as a disease. I can't tell you how many times I once used telling myself "I'm powerless, I have a disease". Fact is when push comes to shove and we're thinking of using, those constant YES/NO's running through our head, no amount of praying will remove the responsibility from ourselves to say "NO.. I'm not going to use today"...

Addiction might be a disease, but we can be the cure. Staying staunch when the test comes is the key.

I guess it's whatever works best for you is the answer. To me, the only benefit of reminding myself I have a disease is that it removes the pain and regret over the things I did in addiction. These days I use those feelings to help me stay clean.


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